Swiss shares to be quoted in London

[Dod101]

So says the FT this morning. Apparently in a dispute with the EU Swiss shares were withdrawn from the LSE in 2019. So we will get London quotes for the likes of Nestle, Zurich Insurance and Roche soon. However by the same token, we apparently have lost quotes for quite a number of EU quoted shares.

Net, the LSE seems to have lost trades.

Dod

[simoan]

So says the FT this morning. Apparently in a dispute with the EU Swiss shares were withdrawn from the LSE in 2019. So we will get London quotes for the likes of Nestle, Zurich Insurance and Roche soon. However by the same token, we apparently have lost quotes for quite a number of EU quoted shares.

Net, the LSE seems to have lost trades.

Dod

Yes, I saw this, but then couldn't really think of any Swiss shares other than Nestle and Roche that I'd want to hold! Maybe Geberit, which is held by the Smithson IT would be worthy of consideration? Either way, I'm not sure this changes too much for us PI's because most are so large you can trade the ADRs on the US market... and you're still going to get hit by Swiss Withholding Tax.

All the best, Si

[Dod101]

So says the FT this morning. Apparently in a dispute with the EU Swiss shares were withdrawn from the LSE in 2019. So we will get London quotes for the likes of Nestle, Zurich Insurance and Roche soon. However by the same token, we apparently have lost quotes for quite a number of EU quoted shares.

Net, the LSE seems to have lost trades.

Dod

Yes, I saw this, but then couldn't really think of any Swiss shares other than Nestle and Roche that I'd want to hold! Maybe Geberit, which is held by the Smithson IT would be worthy of consideration? Either way, I'm not sure this changes too much for us PI's because most are so large you can trade the ADRs on the US market... and you're still going to get hit by Swiss Withholding Tax.

All the best, Si

I meant to mention the with holding tax but assumed that it would still apply. It does make it less hassle though as we can trade in Sterling I assume.

Dod

[simoan]

So says the FT this morning. Apparently in a dispute with the EU Swiss shares were withdrawn from the LSE in 2019. So we will get London quotes for the likes of Nestle, Zurich Insurance and Roche soon. However by the same token, we apparently have lost quotes for quite a number of EU quoted shares.

Net, the LSE seems to have lost trades.

Dod

Yes, I saw this, but then couldn't really think of any Swiss shares other than Nestle and Roche that I'd want to hold! Maybe Geberit, which is held by the Smithson IT would be worthy of consideration? Either way, I'm not sure this changes too much for us PI's because most are so large you can trade the ADRs on the US market... and you're still going to get hit by Swiss Withholding Tax.

All the best, Si

I meant to mention the with holding tax but assumed that it would still apply. It does make it less hassle though as we can trade in Sterling I assume.

Dod

Yes, less hassle if you don't have a US broker account to trade the ADRs. I have a US broking account where I can hold cash in USD, so the ADRs would be my own preferred way of accessing Swiss listed shares. Many years ago I owned Xstrata which was based in Zug and I could not claim back the WHT on dividends (which was 30% or something) because my UK broker (AJ Bell) could not be bothered to fill in the paperwork for submitting to the Swiss tax authorities. I assume this is likely still the case with most UK brokers, so not much use for your HYP investors

All the best, Si

[Dod101]

Yes, I saw this, but then couldn't really think of any Swiss shares other than Nestle and Roche that I'd want to hold! Maybe Geberit, which is held by the Smithson IT would be worthy of consideration? Either way, I'm not sure this changes too much for us PI's because most are so large you can trade the ADRs on the US market... and you're still going to get hit by Swiss Withholding Tax.

All the best, Si

I meant to mention the with holding tax but assumed that it would still apply. It does make it less hassle though as we can trade in Sterling I assume.

Dod

Yes, less hassle if you don't have a US broker account to trade the ADRs. I have a US broking account where I can hold cash in USD, so the ADRs would be my own preferred way of accessing Swiss listed shares. Many years ago I owned Xstrata which was based in Zug and I could not claim back the WHT on dividends (which was 30% or something) because my UK broker (AJ Bell) could not be bothered to fill in the paperwork for submitting to the Swiss tax authorities. I assume this is likely still the case with most UK brokers, so not much use for your HYP investors

All the best, Si

Interactive Investor will let hold US Dollars but its problem is the cost of exchange in the first place. InvestDirect, if you do not mind the rather antiquated systems will also do so.
Why would you prefer to hold Swiss shares via ADRs?

Dod

[simoan]

I meant to mention the with holding tax but assumed that it would still apply. It does make it less hassle though as we can trade in Sterling I assume.

Dod

Yes, less hassle if you don't have a US broker account to trade the ADRs. I have a US broking account where I can hold cash in USD, so the ADRs would be my own preferred way of accessing Swiss listed shares. Many years ago I owned Xstrata which was based in Zug and I could not claim back the WHT on dividends (which was 30% or something) because my UK broker (AJ Bell) could not be bothered to fill in the paperwork for submitting to the Swiss tax authorities. I assume this is likely still the case with most UK brokers, so not much use for your HYP investors

All the best, Si

Interactive Investor will let hold US Dollars but its problem is the cost of exchange in the first place. InvestDirect, if you do not mind the rather antiquated systems will also do so.
Why would you prefer to hold Swiss shares via ADRs?

Dod

Just personal circumstances. By definition you can't hold USD in a SIPP or ISA and I don't like the ludicrous FX rates they charge, so I would use my IG USD trading account (20% cash in USD currently) which is where I hold all my foreign/US listed large caps only e.g. Apple, Proctor & Gamble, PepsiCo. I keep my UK taxable accounts for UK small caps only where capital growth is the aim, not income. Perhaps I'm the only person that has different accounts for different purposes like this! What can I say? It just helps the way my brain works...

All the best, Si

[Dod101]

Just personal circumstances. By definition you can't hold USD in a SIPP or ISA and I don't like the ludicrous FX rates they charge, so I would use my IG USD trading account (20% cash in USD currently) which is where I hold all my foreign/US listed large caps only e.g. Apple, Proctor & Gamble, PepsiCo. I keep my UK taxable accounts for UK small caps only where capital growth is the aim, not income. Perhaps I'm the only person that has different accounts for different purposes like this! What can I say? It just helps the way my brain works...

All the best, Si

You had me worried there. I hold TD Bank via the Toronto stock exchange in an ISA. That is allowed as I am relieved to read, and arising out of that I have some Canadian Dollars from dividends waiting whilst they accumulate to a reasonable amount and I will then decide whether to buy more TD Bank or convert them to sterling. I cannot imagine that I could not do that with US shares as well.

Dod

[simoan]

Just personal circumstances. By definition you can't hold USD in a SIPP or ISA and I don't like the ludicrous FX rates they charge, so I would use my IG USD trading account (20% cash in USD currently) which is where I hold all my foreign/US listed large caps only e.g. Apple, Proctor & Gamble, PepsiCo. I keep my UK taxable accounts for UK small caps only where capital growth is the aim, not income. Perhaps I'm the only person that has different accounts for different purposes like this! What can I say? It just helps the way my brain works...

All the best, Si

You had me worried there. I hold TD Bank via the Toronto stock exchange in an ISA. That is allowed as I am relieved to read, and arising out of that I have some Canadian Dollars from dividends waiting whilst they accumulate to a reasonable amount and I will then decide whether to buy more TD Bank or convert them to sterling. I cannot imagine that I could not do that with US shares as well.

Dod

Sorry, re-reading my post above it's as clear as mud... so much for trying to explain myself before my second cup of coffee!

No need to worry - you can hold shares listed on a recognised market in an ISA but you can't hold foreign currency (e.g. USD, CAD, EUR) in cash on account, so every time you receive a dividend or make a transaction you get hit with a FX charge by the broker. For the likes of HL and AJ Bell this can add up. Of course, when Swiss shares are traded on the LSE this will still apply to dividends but not transactions because the price will be in GBP. I only use IG for overseas trading because they are relatively cheap and their FX rates are better than other brokers, plus they allow you to hold cash in currencies other than GBP. You can convert money between currencies on-line as and when you need to. Either way, I'm happy to have a portion of my portfolio in USD.

The main reason I try to hold all foreign listed shares (which are generally low yielding anyway) in a taxable account is that I can claim back any WHT on dividend income via my tax return. So if I did hold a Swiss share, for instance, I can claim the dividend WHT on my tax return if it's in a taxable account. That way, at least you don't lose the WHT completely due to your broker not being prepared to claim it back for you, which is what I found in the past.

All the best, Si

[PinkDalek]

... So if I did hold a Swiss share, for instance, I can claim the dividend WHT on my tax return if it's in a taxable account. That way, at least you don't lose the WHT completely due to your broker not being prepared to claim it back for you, which is what I found in the past.

A couple of points there, if I may.

1. As I'm sure you know, the offset against UK Income Tax liabilities is restricted to the treaty amount (usually 15%) and can only be offset against Income Tax arising on that income.

2. Historically I held my Nestle shares in certificated form and that became no longer possible some years ago but I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for any developments on that front. In those days the Nestle produced dividend voucher arrived safely in hard copy & I'd then progress the claim manually etc.

Since being forced to move to nominee, I've never used a broker to claim back the 20% Swiss anticipatory tax (35% deducted at source) from the Swiss Tax Authorities in Berne as I do the paperwork myself, including completion of their Form 86.

However, the difficulty I've encountered in recent years, grabbed from another topic on the same subject***, is:

... my current broker holding them (same stable as iweb) does not come up with a detailed enough tax voucher and requisite statement that is required by the Swiss Tax Authorities in Berne.

Btw I don't believe brokers can facilitate it in the same way as a W8-BEN if that is what you mean, as it is the individual UK taxpayer who has to get and complete the appropriate paperwork, get it stamped by HMRC to confirm UK resident and then get the claim off to Berne (nowadays using a more modern approach than in prior years).

Edit: The more modern approach https://www.estv.admin.ch/estv/en/home/verrechnungssteuer/verrechnungssteuer/dienstleistungen/snapform-viewer.html

and

The forms are easy to obtain, that is not the difficulty - see https://www.estv.admin.ch/estv/en/home/verrechnungssteuer/verrechnungssteuer/dienstleistungen/ausland.html.

***More here (and elsewhere on TLF):

Nestle and Swiss withholding tax
viewtopic.php?p=313929#p313929

[monabri]

Or maybe via iShares fund "EWL"

https://www.fundslibrary.co.uk/FundsLib ... 6Y3zT7&r=1


Approx percentages - see factsheet.

21.3% Nestle
13.5% Roche
10% Novartis
4% Zurich

Shareprice graph

https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/EWL:US

[Lootman]

couldn't really think of any Swiss shares other than Nestle and Roche that I'd want to hold! Either way, I'm not sure this changes too much for us PI's because most are so large you can trade the ADRs on the US market

There is also ABB which I held for a while, and also available via US ADRs.

Note that Nestles is no longer listed on a major US exchange even though its ADRs are still available. A few years ago it switched to the pink sheets, i.e. is only traded over the counter. It used to have a full listing but apparently got tired of the disclosure requirements associated with that.

[simoan]

1. As I'm sure you know, the offset against UK Income Tax liabilities is restricted to the treaty amount (usually 15%) and can only be offset against Income Tax arising on that income.

Yes, obviously I am aware of this. If you need to do a tax return it's a no brainer to claim back any withheld tax under the appropriate Double Taxation Treaty. Just in case it's not clear, I don't intend to buy any direct holdings in Swiss companies. Previously I had 35% of a few Xstrata dividends withheld but I took the view it wasn't worth my time filling in the forms and communicating with the Swiss tax office considering the relatively small amounts involved each time.

All the best, Si

[simoan]

couldn't really think of any Swiss shares other than Nestle and Roche that I'd want to hold! Either way, I'm not sure this changes too much for us PI's because most are so large you can trade the ADRs on the US market

There is also ABB which I held for a while, and also available via US ADRs.

Note that Nestles is no longer listed on a major US exchange even though its ADRs are still available. A few years ago it switched to the pink sheets, i.e. is only traded over the counter. It used to have a full listing but apparently got tired of the disclosure requirements associated with that.

Interesting. I've never looked at Nestle ADRs. Yes, there's ABB and I'd forgotten about Richemont too which maybe worthy of consideration. The profitability metrics of Geberit are impressive but I have some exposure through Smithson already.

All the best, Si