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Fan Led Review

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dealtn
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Re: Fan Led Review

#460853

Postby dealtn » November 25th, 2021, 2:14 pm

BobbyD wrote:
dealtn wrote:
BobbyD wrote:... and it will harm football.


What page number are you up to? How do you know?


So you aren't disputing the grounds for instigating the investigation are grasping?

Because it isn't about football its about politics.

Because its recommendations are bad.

Because unwarranted government intervention is always bad.

Because it will divert resources which would have been used to improve the game to ensuring compliance and developing political cover.

Still I look forwards to the Yorkshire racism scandal and Covid 19, and the the periodic warnings from Rugby Prem that bankruptcies are on the horizon sparking similar enquiries and proposals of government oversight...


Odd you think a fan led review would provide evidence for something that is bad for football. I would think fans would generally be suggesting the opposite, although like with many things, individuals might not have the knowledge, or be misaligned in what is good for them, or their club, than with what is good as a whole.

Personally I am prepared to read the report first before coming to my conclusions. Maybe I am unusual.

Adamski
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Re: Fan Led Review

#460854

Postby Adamski » November 25th, 2021, 2:14 pm

Good that something is finally being done. I broadly like the suggestions. There is too big a gulf between the PL and Championship. Promoted clubs getting relegated next season. Norwich being an obvious example. All of the Championship clubs are overspending.

Not sure about them getting rid of parachute payments. Without them relegated clubs would go bust as they are contracted to pay their players PL wages.

So not sure how they'd get out of that one. Sell their players? but not always easy if the club is relegated the player is not good enough for the PL but on PL wages.

What really need in the All leagues is a wage cap, but that will be blocked by the big clubs in each league. So theses proposals sound realistic.

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Re: Fan Led Review

#460859

Postby BobbyD » November 25th, 2021, 2:36 pm

SteMiS wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
It's not a perspective it's a fact, for which I provided a reliable source (The PL themselves, in our last discussion). It's a company. It's shareholders are the 20 clubs in the PL at the time in question.

I think it's a very badly run company, on both the footballing and business sides, but a company it is.

That doesn't mean it doesn't act as a regulator, however inconsistently...


It can act like Charlie Chaplin, and frequently does, but that doesn't make it a clown in anything but a metaphorical sense. It's a company which creates and sells a product. Its rules and regulations are decided by its 20 equal shareholders. Its bodies and committees, its structure and dispute handling mechanisms, its contracts and its obligations all come down to its 20 equal shareholders. That's not a regulator, it's a corporate body.


SteMiS wrote:I don't think being a pro market liberal is inconsistent with regulation. The market is full of regulation to prevent dominant actors (like the Big 6, for example) abusing their power to the detriment of the industry and it's consumers...


The financial market regulation is a completely different kettle of fish. There are instances where I agree regulation is warranted, for instance where a company is not only selling a position but making the market on which that position trades (although caveat bloody emptor), or where there is potential for massively leveraged positions to bring down the financial markets and end civilisation as we know it. This is football... It hurts, but no one gets hurt.

You want to talk about financial regulation to prevent a sugar daddy picking up a club, filling its coffers with a near infinite amount of oil dollars and trying to buy every trophy in sight? I'm opposed, but it's a reasonable topic of discussion. There's a couple of problems though. One is we already have FFP, and it obviously doesn't work, and two that actually cements the advantages of the better off clubs rather than undercutting it. But trying to disadvantage a club just because they are successful? Unconscionable. It reminds me of when I was a kid and Tesco was the fifth biggest retailer in the UK. Nobody will ever catch Sainsburys. 30 years later and Tesco are the fifth biggest retailer on the planet and people are complaining that they have an unfair advantage so big nobody else can compete... 20 years ago united were untouchable. Today not so much... Football is supposed to be a competition. Be better at it than other people and you will rise. Sit back on your flabby haunches with your wreath of laurels slipped over one eye and very soon you'll find yourself as a mid-table has been with a crippling wage bill who hasn't won the league in nine years, mentioning no names. If you are better at running a club, better at spotting talent, better at negotiating, better at analysing opposition, better at developing players, better at utilising players, better at turning individuals in to a team then more power to you.

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Re: Fan Led Review

#460865

Postby BobbyD » November 25th, 2021, 2:43 pm

Adamski wrote:What really need in the All leagues is a wage cap, but that will be blocked by the big clubs in each league. So theses proposals sound realistic.


Why? Owners of big clubs love wage caps, it means they have more money left over after paying their staff. Just look at the big American sports, run by billionaires, replete with wage caps. Why? Because it prevents wage inflation. Look at the analysis and who pay for it? The superstars.

The people who actually would hate a wage cap? The government. Why? 45% of £250,000 a week is a lot of tax revenue.

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Re: Fan Led Review

#460869

Postby BobbyD » November 25th, 2021, 2:55 pm

dealtn wrote:
Odd you think a fan led review would provide evidence for something that is bad for football.


Not really. For starters it's a disingenuous term, right up there with 'independent' regulator (how are we selecting this independent regulator, by lottery?), secondly because you know as well as I do that the fans involved are unlikely to be representative of fans as a whole and thirdly why would you suppose that fans generally have any more idea about what is good for football than others involved in the game, or a member of the public selected at random? I wouldn't expect the guy squeezing croissants on isle three to have any special insight in to how to run a supermarket, why would fans have any special insight in to how to run football. And anybody who has the most basic idea of how the game is run and has spent 30 seconds on any fans forum knows that the average level of fan knowledge about the actual running of a club is quite strongly negative.

dealtn wrote:I would think fans would generally be suggesting the opposite, although like with many things, individuals might not have the knowledge, or be misaligned in what is good for them, or their club, than with what is good as a whole.


Ah, there we go, a point of agreement.

dealtn
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Re: Fan Led Review

#460872

Postby dealtn » November 25th, 2021, 3:04 pm

BobbyD wrote:
dealtn wrote:
Odd you think a fan led review would provide evidence for something that is bad for football.


Not really. For starters it's a disingenuous term, right up there with 'independent' regulator (how are we selecting this independent regulator, by lottery?), secondly because you know as well as I do that the fans involved are unlikely to be representative of fans as a whole and thirdly why would you suppose that fans generally have any more idea about what is good for football than others involved in the game, or a member of the public selected at random? I wouldn't expect the guy squeezing croissants on isle three to have any special insight in to how to run a supermarket, why would fans have any special insight in to how to run football. And anybody who has the most basic idea of how the game is run and has spent 30 seconds on any fans forum knows that the average level of fan knowledge about the actual running of a club is quite strongly negative.

dealtn wrote:I would think fans would generally be suggesting the opposite, although like with many things, individuals might not have the knowledge, or be misaligned in what is good for them, or their club, than with what is good as a whole.


Ah, there we go, a point of agreement.


Very close to losing the will to continue engaging. You obviously have no intention on reading the review which answers the question you pose.

I have no set views on what the answer should be, but participated in this review, and will be ultimately be bound by its implementation. It is of literal relevance to me and my club.

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Re: Fan Led Review

#460874

Postby BobbyD » November 25th, 2021, 3:17 pm

dealtn wrote:Very close to losing the will to continue engaging. You obviously have no intention on reading the review which answers the question you pose.


I'm sorry this report wasn't released on a day I had more time to hold this conversation on your terms, it is of course a personal failing on my part. I've just been providing answers to your and Stemis's questions, with which you have by and large refused to engage and just thrown out another question and an allegation of bad faith. Hardly conducive to constructive or interesting dialogue so I'll stop wasting my time.

dealtn
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Re: Fan Led Review

#460889

Postby dealtn » November 25th, 2021, 4:09 pm

BobbyD wrote:
dealtn wrote:Very close to losing the will to continue engaging. You obviously have no intention on reading the review which answers the question you pose.


I'm sorry this report wasn't released on a day I had more time to hold this conversation on your terms, it is of course a personal failing on my part. I've just been providing answers to your and Stemis's questions, with which you have by and large refused to engage and just thrown out another question and an allegation of bad faith. Hardly conducive to constructive or interesting dialogue so I'll stop wasting my time.


I am not sure what you mean in all honesty.

You are the one using emotive language, decrying the government, and suggesting the regulator is appointed by lottery etc. The answer to your question on how it will be set up is in the review. As and when you either read it, or access those that have and provide appropriate commentary, I agree with you, it is difficult to engage in a constructive or interesting way.

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Re: Fan Led Review

#461102

Postby Adamski » November 26th, 2021, 11:17 am

BobbyD wrote:Why? Owners of big clubs love wage caps, it means they have more money left over after paying their staff.


Not in football. Wage caps would effect the big clubs as pay the highest wages. A wage cap in football would stop clubs from going bust and level the playing field.

dealtn
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Re: Fan Led Review

#463814

Postby dealtn » December 7th, 2021, 12:12 pm

The Fan Led Review, or Crouch report, is currently being discussed before the Digital, Culture, Media, and Sport Committee in the House of Commons.

Tracey Crouch being questioned on the findings etc.


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