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Is limited over cricket the reason?

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Leothebear
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Is limited over cricket the reason?

#475030

Postby Leothebear » January 21st, 2022, 12:35 pm

In my simplistic view, a batsman, in whatever form of the game, has protecting his wicket as his first priority. Second priority is to score runs.
The margins may differ but the order remains.

For bowlers, especially at test level, the priority is to take wickets. Second being to prevent the batsman scoring.
In limited over cricket these priorities are reversed. A dot ball being as good as a wicket on occasions.

One could argue that in LOC there is more pressure on the bat to score off every ball. Not so for the long game where ball selection comes far more into play. So what am I missing in LO cricket that is so damaging the batsman's skills for the long game?

In this last Ashes, England's batsmen had hopeless preparation. That sure didn't help. But I also think a poor mindset was also somewhat to blame. Collapses were expected and became a self fulfilling prophecy.

Having said all that I freely admit that Australia were the better side. England's batting though should never have been that pathetic.

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#475063

Postby didds » January 21st, 2022, 1:48 pm

Its not THE reason. But its ONE of the reasons.

Its also a reason that has been postulated as a negative influence on what is now known as the red ball game, for as long as Ive been following first class cricket in the early 70s.

Other reasons? well playing red ball predominantly at the season extremities (50% of Kent's games are in April and September this year, with none when wickets are potentially driest and flattest and/or most spin friendly in august) is offered as one. The appeal of earning vast swathes in international T20 contracts drawing players especially when young away from playing red ball overseas during the winter. Etc etc. adding yet another white ball format to an already crowded schedule another. The use of a more seamer friendly ball another.

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#475075

Postby BigB » January 21st, 2022, 2:12 pm

I don't think LOC is the main reason for atrocious test performance. I think the domestic first class structure/season (or lack of it) is a big culprit.

It's analagous with preparing for a triathlon and not doing any swimming.

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#475119

Postby didds » January 21st, 2022, 3:58 pm

BigB wrote:I don't think LOC is the main reason for atrocious test performance. I think the domestic first class structure/season (or lack of it) is a big culprit.


yup. I agree. When England was top of the log in test cricket under Strauss they were playing LOC. When England won the ashes in 1977, 1985, 2005 etc they were playing LOC.

The balance of the season is stuffed.

dealtn
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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#475187

Postby dealtn » January 21st, 2022, 6:48 pm

Leothebear wrote:In my simplistic view, a batsman, in whatever form of the game, has protecting his wicket as his first priority. Second priority is to score runs.
The margins may differ but the order remains.



I disagree, although perhaps that is covered by your "simplistic view".

Cricket is a team sport, the thoughts of the (sum of the) individual aren't the same as the collective. There should be an emphasis on maximising the team score, which isn't the same as prioritising protecting an individual wicket. There will be some that don't get to bat were that the case. It needs to factored in that with sufficient wickets remaining it can be optimal to risk scoring runs (for the team) over protecting (an individual batsman) getting out.

We (especially in this corner of the internet) understand portfolio theories of investing as an optimal diversification. It isn't that different an approach to team sports like cricket.

SalvorHardin
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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#475194

Postby SalvorHardin » January 21st, 2022, 7:11 pm

Lack of County cricket is the problem. Most of what there is is played in April and September when pitches are conducive to medium pace bowling in preference to spin and pace. Batting becomes a bit of a lottery.

Shutting down most of County cricket and Test Cricket for The Hundred is a big mistake. Australia ran their T20 Big Bash at the same time as the Ashes.

Most of the test team don't play County cricket nowadays. They haven't played a red ball cricket match since they last played a test match. Also:

Root is a brilliant batsman but a poor captain, in particular bowling Stokes into the ground. Buttler is not a test match standard wicket keeper. Too many dropped catches by the team as a whole. Awful decision to bat in first test and not play Broad.

The current issue of "The Cricketer" goes into a lot of depth with "The Ashes Autopsy". Worth a read

That said Australia haven't won an Ashes series in England for 21 years

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#475452

Postby Hallucigenia » January 22nd, 2022, 10:55 pm

Yep - England are spending too much time practising limited-overs cricket. That's definitely the problem.

Leothebear
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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#475723

Postby Leothebear » January 24th, 2022, 12:25 pm

The point I wanted to emphasize was that in LO a batter is pressured to score, even off decent balls. In tests that pressure is reduced and decent balls can be left or blocked. So are we saying that our batsman have lost the skills of leaving/blocking the decent ball?

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476007

Postby didds » January 25th, 2022, 1:32 pm

Leothebear wrote:The point I wanted to emphasize was that in LO a batter is pressured to score, even off decent balls. In tests that pressure is reduced and decent balls can be left or blocked. So are we saying that our batsman have lost the skills of leaving/blocking the decent ball?



well that is evident to be honest from this latest tour :-)

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476035

Postby SalvorHardin » January 25th, 2022, 2:33 pm

Leothebear wrote:The point I wanted to emphasize was that in LO a batter is pressured to score, even off decent balls. In tests that pressure is reduced and decent balls can be left or blocked. So are we saying that our batsman have lost the skills of leaving/blocking the decent ball?

Some batsmen have problems adapting from county cricket to limited overs. But many don't, especially the top players. Most overseas test match batsmen play a lot of limited overs cricket, particularly T20. The last time I looked at a teamsheet for the recent India v Australia test series, every player except one (Pujara) was a regular starter for an Indian Premier League team and most of them also played for the Indian T20 and ODI teams.

IMHO it's more to do with the setup of English cricket. In recent seasons county cricket has been pushed mostly into April and September, where playing conditions are very different than those encountered in a midsummer or overseas test match. Batsmen in county cricket increasingly take guard on off stump (or even outside off) as it gives them a better chance against the medium pace bowling which dominates county cricket in these months.

Also they don't face many spin bowlers as counties have decided that they'd rather pick another medium pace bowler. It doesn't help that if if your pitch is too spin friendly, you might get fined and have points deducted as the ECB likes to do to us down here in Somerset.

Trevor Bayliss, interviewed in August 2020 by Cricinfo: "He added that the pitches produced for County Championship matches were too "soft and damp", aiding traditional English seam-and-swing merchants and denying batsmen the opportunity to spend long hours in the middle. Faced with flatter Test pitches, those bowling strengths are then negated, while the extra pace deployed by opposition attacks comes as a "shock" to candidates for England's top order."

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/is-county-cricket-unfairly-maligned-1229632

So a batsman who is coming into the test match setup hasn't faced test match quality bowling (i.e. real pace and quality spin), and they take guard too far across the wicket then wonder why they're increasingly being bowled behind their legs by quick bowlers. It's no surprise that a new batsman coming into the test team struggles. Then there's the lack of practice; established English test players hardly ever play a county championship match. In contrast several of the Australian test team had been regularly playing in the Sheffield Shield before the Ashes started (and they don't play in the Big Bash T20).

A quick fix would be to restore the county championship to being played throughout the season. So what if a team's star players are playing in The Hundred, play the county championship games at the same time. Allowing counties to play more overseas players would also help raise the standard.

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476057

Postby Leothebear » January 25th, 2022, 3:25 pm

A quick fix would be to restore the county championship to being played throughout the season. So what if a team's star players are playing in The Hundred, play the county championship games at the same time. Allowing counties to play more overseas players would also help raise the standard.

The county game is now so poorly supported perhaps it would be a cheap enough opportunity for terrestrial TV to cover some of it. I'd watch.
Or has Sky already got it?

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476064

Postby SalvorHardin » January 25th, 2022, 3:44 pm

Leothebear wrote:A quick fix would be to restore the county championship to being played throughout the season. So what if a team's star players are playing in The Hundred, play the county championship games at the same time. Allowing counties to play more overseas players would also help raise the standard.

The county game is now so poorly supported perhaps it would be a cheap enough opportunity for terrestrial TV to cover some of it. I'd watch.
Or has Sky already got it?

Sky has the rights and they show a few live games every season (especially if the division one title race goes to the final game). Last year when the IPL was cancelled Sky broadcast some live county championship games in its place.

The BBC has the rights for local radio (and internet radio) for county championship games.

All of the first class counties broadcast their own games, streaming with a camera behind one of the bowlers' ends.

County Cricket is pretty well supported here in Somerset. We usually get crowds of at least 2,000 for county games (8,500 capacity ground). And we have Brian the Somerset Cat, for whom a house is being built at the County Ground :D

https://www.somersetcountycc.co.uk/news/club-news/brian-somerset-cat/

https://twitter.com/SCCCBrianTheCat

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476183

Postby didds » January 25th, 2022, 8:51 pm

SalvorHardin wrote:Also they don't face many spin bowlers as counties have decided that they'd rather pick another medium pace bowler. It doesn't help that if if your pitch is too spin friendly, you might get fined and have points deducted as the ECB likes to do to us down here in Somerset.


but also wickets aren't spin friendly anyway in April and the latter part of September anyway (damp conditions etc)

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476185

Postby didds » January 25th, 2022, 8:55 pm

Leothebear wrote:The county game is now so poorly supported


its difficult to get fuller grounds when games are played mainly in parts of the year when families arent taking holidays, and the main school holiday period has no CC cricket in it at all for some counties (Kent has no red ball from early July until September). Add to that weekends given over to LOC and now you've got a red ball schedule that only the unemployed or the retired can get to, on the whole. talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476193

Postby SalvorHardin » January 25th, 2022, 10:10 pm

didds wrote:but also wickets aren't spin friendly anyway in April and the latter part of September anyway (damp conditions etc)

They are here in Taunton. Somerset is the only county that plays spinners throughout the season.

The ECB doesn't like it, even though we've produced the most recent Test teams' spinners (Jack Leach and Dom Bess). As Marcus Trescothick said in 2018:

"I you're going to learn to play spin you're going to have to face it, and when you come to Taunton you have to learn the art of playing on tough pitches," he said.

"We at Somerset have harshly been put under the spotlight for producing pitches that have spun. Other counties have had pitches reported, but because it's a seaming pitch it doesn't get talked about. If you play on pitches that spin it gets highlighted quickly and wrongly."


https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/tough-taunton-pitches-promote-art-of-playing-spin-says-marcus-trescothick-1164001

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476233

Postby didds » January 26th, 2022, 8:32 am

Very true SH, fair enough.

Taunton will spin on April 14th? (Merely checking!)

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476541

Postby SalvorHardin » January 27th, 2022, 12:41 pm

didds wrote:Very true SH, fair enough.

Taunton will spin on April 14th? (Merely checking!)

It should take spin. In April 2021 Jack Leach bowled 40.1 overs in the first match at Taunton (scorecard below). He didn't take any wickets though.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/county-championship-2021-1244186/somerset-vs-gloucestershire-group-2-1244228/full-scorecard

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Re: Is limited over cricket the reason?

#476821

Postby didds » January 28th, 2022, 11:52 am

SalvorHardin wrote:
didds wrote:Very true SH, fair enough.

Taunton will spin on April 14th? (Merely checking!)

It should take spin. In April 2021 Jack Leach bowled 40.1 overs in the first match at Taunton (scorecard below). He didn't take any wickets though.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/county-championship-2021-1244186/somerset-vs-gloucestershire-group-2-1244228/full-scorecard



well that just suggests he was used as a miserly stock bowler in the 1st dig (29 overs at 2 .2) to shut one end up, while the seamers rotated at the other end?

he got some tap in the 2nd dig as Glos chased the winning total, which suggests it not only wasnt turning but he wasnt effective as a stock bowler either...


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