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England and GS

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Leothebear
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England and GS

#507942

Postby Leothebear » June 17th, 2022, 4:53 pm

Losing 0-4 at home to Hungary.
The least impressive performance so far but the best hasn't been much to write home about.
I agree it's a M Mouse tournament but most of the players in it have had a hard season not just the English so I don't see that's a valid reason for England's mediocrity. 4 matches 1 goal and that from a penalty. Poor indeed.

They are also dire to watch. Plenty of possession but that possession is mostly in their own half and midfield where most of the play is sideways/backwards tippy tappy giving the opponents ample time to organise their defence. Our attacking play lacks any penetration when it finally comes. England simply look a weak side.

I realise that on paper GS has a decent record, in the Euros and the last WC but as any Scot will eagerly tell you England had the twin benefits of luck with the draws and home advantage. As soon as we came up to a decent side we lost.

So are these players not quite as good as we've been led to believe? Or are GS's tactics negative and ineffective? Or both?

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Re: England and GS

#507945

Postby pje16 » June 17th, 2022, 5:00 pm

What is hard season
These are men at peak age who train everyday
Why can't they play 90 minutes with days of recovery in between
Never heard this claptrap in the 70s, 80s or 90s with more games and smaller squads
Man up !
Most of them just didn't look interested :roll:

Itsallaguess
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Re: England and GS

#507956

Postby Itsallaguess » June 17th, 2022, 6:06 pm

Leothebear wrote:
I realise that on paper GS has a decent record, in the Euros and the last WC but as any Scot will eagerly tell you England had the twin benefits of luck with the draws and home advantage. As soon as we came up to a decent side we lost.

So are these players not quite as good as we've been led to believe? Or are GS's tactics negative and ineffective? Or both?


This current crop of England players probably have the highest potential for a generation, in my opinion, and are being absolutely wasted under the negative tactics that Southgate sends them out with.

The pace and skill-set in that squad (Maguire excepted, natch...), and especially in what would normally be regarded as a starting eleven, should scare the bejeesus out of any opposition, but Southgate sends them out to bore them to death...

To think what someone with a bit of ambition like Venables would have done with that set of lads...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: England and GS

#507988

Postby kiloran » June 17th, 2022, 8:24 pm

Maybe replace GS with Sarina Wiegman (England Women's manager). Watched the England-Belgium game last night and really enjoyed it.

--kiloran

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Re: England and GS

#508328

Postby marronier » June 19th, 2022, 5:57 pm

I don't think it is just a solution of changing the manager. Nothing raises the blood pressure more than the commentator saying " That was a clear chance , but it came to him on his wrong foot ". At £50,000+ a week they shouldn't have a wrong foot if they are professional, proud ,passionate, practiced and proficient. Coaches who say concentrate on the strengths and ignore the weakness of a wrong foot are unaware that a chain is as strong as the weakest link. At crucial moments ,it counts. As they say with antique vases etc. , a pair is worth at least three times the single. Imagine how many more goals could be scored if a striker could play the ball to whichever foot it came .

pje16
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Re: England and GS

#508330

Postby pje16 » June 19th, 2022, 6:08 pm

marronier wrote:Imagine how many more goals could be scored if a striker could play the ball to whichever foot it came .

Having watched him in the prime of his career I was amazed to hear George Best, one the the truly world class players (younger folk, ask your Dad) explain how he was predominately right footed and through practice became as good with his left, I was stunned to hear how he couldn't use his left naturally.
Today's overpaid prima donnas take note, ( a lot are there now because of their athletic ability rather than their football skill)

dealtn
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Re: England and GS

#508335

Postby dealtn » June 19th, 2022, 6:29 pm

pje16 wrote:Today's overpaid prima donnas take note, ( a lot are there now because of their athletic ability rather than their football skill)


Can't say I agree with that. It's certainly not the way we recruit (or scout talent). Then again there isn't a single player I have signed on a contract that would merit the description of either being "overpaid" or a "prima donna".

pje16
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Re: England and GS

#508337

Postby pje16 » June 19th, 2022, 6:36 pm

I guess Adama Traore isn't on your books :lol:

dealtn
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Re: England and GS

#508342

Postby dealtn » June 19th, 2022, 6:47 pm

pje16 wrote:I guess Adama Traore isn't on your books :lol:


No, I don't own Wolverhampton Wanderers (or Barcelona). Why?

pje16
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Re: England and GS

#508344

Postby pje16 » June 19th, 2022, 6:53 pm

He's a better athlete than he is a footballer
but no doubt you will disagree

dealtn
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Re: England and GS

#508349

Postby dealtn » June 19th, 2022, 7:30 pm

pje16 wrote:He's a better athlete than he is a footballer
but no doubt you will disagree


Well he is clearly fit and athletic, but are you seriously suggesting someone who has represented Spain at 5 age groups, and currently plays for Barcelona, isn't a talented footballer?

pje16
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Re: England and GS

#508350

Postby pje16 » June 19th, 2022, 7:35 pm

dealtn wrote:
pje16 wrote:He's a better athlete than he is a footballer
but no doubt you will disagree


Well he is clearly fit and athletic, but are you seriously suggesting someone who has represented Spain at 5 age groups, and currently plays for Barcelona, isn't a talented footballer?

Have you seen seen how many times his fantastic speed take him past players, with crosses into the box failing time after time to find players
I'm not saying he can't play but without his extra pace he would be nowhere near Barcelona

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Re: England and GS

#508470

Postby Leothebear » June 20th, 2022, 1:55 pm

My topic for this thread was - are GS's tactics unnecessarily negative and not optimising his players? Or are his players not as good as they've been thought or both? Let's get back to that before the bickering gets a head of steam.

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Re: England and GS

#508665

Postby bungeejumper » June 21st, 2022, 2:49 pm

pje16 wrote:Having watched him in the prime of his career I was amazed to hear George Best, one the the truly world class players (younger folk, ask your Dad) explain how he was predominately right footed and through practice became as good with his left, I was stunned to hear how he couldn't use his left naturally.
Today's overpaid prima donnas take note, ( a lot are there now because of their athletic ability rather than their football skill)

I was with you right up until that last sentence. The very last footie match I paid to watch was nearly fifty years ago, when George Best put two past West Brom to make it 3-2. What a gift he had. And the game before that was watching Inter Milan thump Hertha Berlin at the 1936 Olympics stadium. :) Talk about leaving the game on a classy note. (Me, I mean. :lol: )

But, as the misty spectacle-lenses clear, I strongly suspect that an averagely good modern team would have destroyed anything that the most exciting squads of the 1960s/early 1970s could have offered? Better tactics, better team-play, far better fitness - and none of those night-before booze-ups, either.

Which is not to say that the modern game is better than the old one. Which is why I hardly watch it any more. Playing the long ball might have been how third division Watford defeated Liverpool 4-1 (I think), but all those tight tactics do make for a less thrilling game.

If I want a thrilling game, I watch the women's teams. They wouldn't stand a chance against the best men's teams, because they make too many mistakes, but by golly, they're reinventing the old game. Why, I'd watch them if they were playing in burkas. Although it's a double bonus that they're not. ;)

BJ

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Re: England and GS

#508882

Postby Maroochydore » June 22nd, 2022, 4:58 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
But, as the misty spectacle-lenses clear, I strongly suspect that an averagely good modern team would have destroyed anything that the most exciting squads of the 1960s/early 1970s could have offered? Better tactics, better team-play, far better fitness - and none of those night-before booze-ups, either.

Which is not to say that the modern game is better than the old one.

Balls! Don't forget the balls are different. Gone are the solid leather balls that soaked up moisture so it was like kicking a medicine ball. Little development was made such that the Slazenger football used in England's World Cup final win in 1966 was very similar to those used during the Football Leagues first season in 1888-89.

After World Cup 66 the FA chose to use Mitre balls and this remained in place into the 21st Century.

For Euro 2004, Adidas unveiled the Roteiro, the first thermally-bonded football. The manufacturing process involved the exterior panels being glued together, with the absence of stitching giving a more spherical shape and a greater level of water resistance.

Now new match balls are developed and launched at each major tournament. Whether or not they favour forwards or make life difficult for goalkeepers is up for debate. They certainly take more swerve so making free-kicks and long range shots much more difficult to get behind.

Let's not also forget the advances in groundsmanship. So, who would you rather watch; Stanley Matthews, Bobby Charlton or Jimmy Greaves in heavy leather chunky boots, with a heavy ball on muddy pitches, or todays prima-donnas playing in little more than ballet pumps, on a pristine bowling green surface with a ball that flies anywhere if you put enough side or top-spin on it.

bungeejumper
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Re: England and GS

#509152

Postby bungeejumper » June 24th, 2022, 8:34 am

Maroochydore wrote:Balls! Don't forget the balls are different. Gone are the solid leather balls that soaked up moisture so it was like kicking a medicine ball. Little development was made such that the Slazenger football used in England's World Cup final win in 1966 was very similar to those used during the Football Leagues first season in 1888-89.

Don't I know it. Back in my wife's Lancashire stomping ground, the little bastards in the street would kick leather footballs around in the street, between the cars, well into the nineties. Maybe they still do?

Bash! Thump! Bang! "Sorry mister, I expect you can get that bonnet fixed." Well, maybe they'd have said that if they hadn't scarpered? :evil:
Let's not also forget the advances in groundsmanship. So, who would you rather watch; Stanley Matthews, Bobby Charlton or Jimmy Greaves in heavy leather chunky boots, with a heavy ball on muddy pitches, or todays prima-donnas playing in little more than ballet pumps, on a pristine bowling green surface with a ball that flies anywhere if you put enough side or top-spin on it.

What I want to know is how they do that sliding on their knees trick? How do they manage not to rip their kneecaps off? :shock:
What if they encountered a 10p piece in the grass, or a tiny bolt that had fallen off the lawnmower? (Shudder.) If I were their coach I wouldn't let them do it, that's for sure. Another reason why the game is probably better off without my close attentions. :lol:

BJ

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Re: England and GS

#510102

Postby Maroochydore » June 27th, 2022, 8:49 pm

bungeejumper wrote:What I want to know is how they do that sliding on their knees trick?

What I want to know is why do they do it? What's wrong with the good old-fashioned shake of the hand on the way back to the centre circle.

Showing my age now!

pje16
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Re: England and GS

#510104

Postby pje16 » June 27th, 2022, 8:56 pm

Maroochydore wrote:What I want to know is why do they do it? What's wrong with the good old-fashioned shake of the hand on the way back to the centre circle.
Showing my age now!

Why do they come onto pitch and hug each other like long lost pals
they have seen each other all week and come out form the same dressing room :roll:

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Re: England and GS

#510153

Postby bungeejumper » June 28th, 2022, 8:32 am

pje16 wrote:Why do they come onto pitch and hug each other like long lost pals
they have seen each other all week and come out form the same dressing room :roll:

Shhhh, not so loud, it's a new man thing. Times are changing, you know. And as Eric Morecambe used to say, they can't touch you for it these days. :D

BJ

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Re: England and GS

#510156

Postby pje16 » June 28th, 2022, 8:35 am

Sounds more like a snowflake thing to me :lol:


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