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6 Nations Rugby

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terminal7
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6 Nations Rugby

#386616

Postby terminal7 » February 14th, 2021, 11:51 am

Scotland v Wales - an incredible match that showed that a cool head often makes the difference at this level. Given the opportunity to kick an easy penalty (right in front of the posts) on 2 occasions to extend a 17-8 lead in the first half, Hogg let the occasion get to him - not for the first time. Of course Wales were on the rack - but Wales have had a habit of winning lost causes under Gatland and Pivac has started to continue this trend this season. Wales have played so much better than this in the past and lost many times. A lost opportunity for Scotland that may never return.

England v Italy - an expected walk-over for England even though they played with little sustained flare - but then that is Eddie Jones. It really is time that a way is introduced to go back to the 5 Nations - Italy just do not have the young players coming through to justify their presence in this tournie.

T7

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#386618

Postby dealtn » February 14th, 2021, 11:54 am

terminal7 wrote:Scotland v Wales - an incredible match that showed that a cool head often makes the difference at this level. Given the opportunity to kick an easy penalty (right in front of the posts) on 2 occasions to extend a 17-8 lead in the first half, Hogg let the occasion get to him - not for the first time. Of course Wales were on the rack - but Wales have had a habit of winning lost causes under Gatland and Pivac has started to continue this trend this season. Wales have played so much better than this in the past and lost many times. A lost opportunity for Scotland that may never return.

England v Italy - an expected walk-over for England even though they played with little sustained flare - but then that is Eddie Jones. It really is time that a way is introduced to go back to the 5 Nations - Italy just do not have the young players coming through to justify their presence in this tournie.

T7


Make it 10 nations with 1 up 1 down relegation.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#386640

Postby terminal7 » February 14th, 2021, 12:58 pm

Make it 10 nations with 1 up 1 down relegation


I assume that you are not serious or you have little knowledge of rugby. Firstly any further calls on the time of top class players would be impossible - they are already playing too much rugby with the knock-on consequences to injuries. Secondly, there is no time available in the domestic competitions to accommodate additional international matches. Thirdly, if Italy are not good enough - where are you going to get better sides?

T7

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#386643

Postby dealtn » February 14th, 2021, 1:10 pm

terminal7 wrote:
Make it 10 nations with 1 up 1 down relegation


I assume that you are not serious or you have little knowledge of rugby. Firstly any further calls on the time of top class players would be impossible - they are already playing too much rugby with the knock-on consequences to injuries. Secondly, there is no time available in the domestic competitions to accommodate additional international matches. Thirdly, if Italy are not good enough - where are you going to get better sides?

T7


Playing 2 divisions of 5 reduces the number of matches for an individual top class player, not increases it.

I assume your knowledge of rugby, and maths, missed that?

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#386649

Postby terminal7 » February 14th, 2021, 1:21 pm

Playing 2 divisions of 5 reduces the number of matches for an individual top class player, not increases it.

I assume your knowledge of rugby, and maths, missed that?


. . and you would expect England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland and France to agree to a change that would involve one of them being relegated with the attendant huge loss of revenue?

T7

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#386651

Postby dealtn » February 14th, 2021, 1:32 pm

terminal7 wrote:
Playing 2 divisions of 5 reduces the number of matches for an individual top class player, not increases it.

I assume your knowledge of rugby, and maths, missed that?


. . and you would expect England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland and France to agree to a change that would involve one of them being relegated with the attendant huge loss of revenue?

T7


No, but that doesn't mean it might not be a part of the solution to the problem of 1 of the 6 not being worthy of a place in the top as it currently stands. It is possible it will lead to a stronger number 6, as they will win more games more regularly, and also improve the standards of 7 - 10 too, that play more regularly and against similar opposition in a meaningful competition.

I don't "expect" the nations you mention to agree, but they might. They would probably be as much concerned about the loss of an international, and the associated revenues, than the relegation. Players, and Clubs might prefer one less game too, which appeared to be your initial objection.

Promotion and relegation might also enliven the competition as every game is important, unlike in the latter stages of some year's competitions when a number of matches effectively become dead rubbers for one, or both teams.

I am on the Board of a Football Club. Promotion, relegation, Play-Off competitions all add to the excitement of the season, well recognised by the supporters.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#387319

Postby didds » February 16th, 2021, 11:14 pm

terminal7 wrote: It really is time that a way is introduced to go back to the 5 Nations - Italy just do not have the young players coming through to justify their presence in this tournie.

T7



Its too late for that.

It will work for the 5N left true.

but what of Italy?

In the tier down they'll gub everybody with possibly the notable exception of georgia - who they'll beat easily. they'll have no real opposition or stiff competiton and fairly quickly their own standard will decline. then Georgia will beat them maybe after a couple or few years. But it won't develop rugby in any meaningful way for either Italy or Georgia.
Last edited by didds on February 16th, 2021, 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#387321

Postby didds » February 16th, 2021, 11:18 pm

dealtn wrote:Make it 10 nations with 1 up 1 down relegation.



Cue five hugely daft one sided matches per "5N" teams and two leagues within one. if the "5N" teams beat Italy by 40+ points already, they'll do similar of not more to Georgia and then the likes of Spain, Romania and Portugal (based on current world rankings, FWTW) will be looking at a century of points.

Too many meaningless games.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#387325

Postby didds » February 16th, 2021, 11:35 pm

I have no real answers to the Italy question (aka the Georgia question).

See above for thoughts .

Maybe an idea 9and a pretty rubbish one at that!) would be to drop italy out of the 6N, reverting to 5N.

Then Italy and Georgia (say) compete as single sides in the Euro "Club" chammpionship (ie against Ulster, Stade F etc). The issues there are the current contractural arrangements for thos Italian and georgian players who are already playing for clubs/franchises. And notwithstanding that rather stuffs the likes of Zebre and Beneton, clubs that play PRO14 and europe cups etc etc and the like. And I suspect now italy would be too strong if that were feasible.

Its not an easy circle to square at all. 6N is dfamned if it continues really, and Italy is damned if they dont. If Italy hasnt improved sufficiently in 20 years of 6N rugby to win games at least on a sporadic basis against the rest, why woud any other team replacing them (presumably Georgia) do any better. For similar reasons Im not convinced of promotion and relegation either as I stronly suspect Italy and georgia will just yo yo for some time ... and as suggested elsewhere already that wold mean the 5N agreeing to an idea that one day could bite them on the arris. It just wont happen.

Or the 5N (as it would become again) could then have a "A" side competiton runninga longside (like a 2nd XV) - and that comp could maybe include Italy & Georgia, though again maybe now the opendulum may swing too far the other way as above.

Meanwhile of course the women's 6N may stay as such - as Italy are one of the stronger women's teams in their competiton.

In summary, WR has an issue in growing the game and devloping it. Similar issues arguably exist in the Pacific and the Americas, and definitely Africa, where the 2nd highest ranked African nation (namibia) currently sits 23 places lower than South Africa. Kenya is 8 places below them at 32. We can look at the Americas similarly where we see Argentina at place 9 - then USA (16), Uruguay (18), Canada (23), Brazil (26) and then all points south.

didds

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#390653

Postby terminal7 » February 27th, 2021, 3:54 pm

Italy shipping another half a ton - this time against Ireland - what is the point?

T7

ref - stop the contest

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#390713

Postby Mike88 » February 27th, 2021, 7:55 pm

Wales beat England convincingly this afternoon after an ill discipled England performance and some strange refereeing decisions. Considering Wales select their side from an area of around 70 miles by 20 miles from the Severn Bridge to Llanelli in the south to Ebbw Vale in the north, it's remarkable that they manage to consistently manage to produce good sides and sometimes great players.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#390735

Postby bluedonkey » February 27th, 2021, 10:44 pm

Surely there is another team that could be a better idea than Italy? Argentina used to be mentioned. I don't think geography matters, most Argentina players play in Europe anyway.

Great Wales match today.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#390741

Postby GrahamPlatt » February 27th, 2021, 11:14 pm

Re Wales-England

I don’t think it was a good match. I think they were two well-matched teams, and that the game was in parts quite brilliant. What spoiled it for me was the (very) poor refereeing. I do not accept that (at ~16’) Farrell failed to roll away (he was trapped) so Wales would not have had that 1st try. I agree with the BBC panel that the second Welsh try should not have been given on account of the (very) obvious preceding knock-on.

I wholly forgive Owen Farrell for missing two difficult penalty goal attempts, and well done him on his 1000 points.

BUT, bad decisions notwithstanding, there was too much refer-interference which spoiled the run of play, and on that account a degree of confusion amongst the players, leading to more errors. OTOH, it is good to see a ref really applying the rules, and not giving “benefit of the doubt” as to what constitutes coming in from the side, or being offside etc. So in honesty, I can’t even fault the ref - it’s just that it’s not the game it was when I were a lad *.

Fair do to Wales on the win - I do not think that any of the foregoing would have changed the outcome (other than by margin).





* “Tha could get all thi shopping and come back wi’ change fro’ a fiver. Tha’s no chance now, too many cameras”.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#390853

Postby terminal7 » February 28th, 2021, 11:14 am

Farrell failed to roll away (he was trapped)


Not relevant -happens all the time and invariably a penalty - the bone of contention was that the ref told Farrell to tell his team to stop all the penalties otherwise etc . . He said that there would be a time out - then when all but 1 of the English were in a huddle, street smart Biggar asked ref could he take the penalty - ref said time on - Biggar takes pin point perfect lob for Adams to run on in the corner past a stranded Daly and the rest of the English are blissfully unaware under the posts discussing what discretion next to commit. Farrell naturally very upset - but should have not made such a spectacle of himself.

Always remember, England got back to 24-24 with 20 mins to go and not for the first time failed to deliver against an inferior (in skill terms) team but a real scrapper of a team. Wales in recent years under Gatland lost the habit of losing and Pivac has managed to tether that mindset this campaign.

So much for Eddie Jones usual mind games about Rees-Zammit and AWJ - he should try to sort out the mindset of his own players who clearly blew a winning opportunity.

T7

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#390866

Postby bluedonkey » February 28th, 2021, 11:46 am

Wales-England: England certainly looked sharper on the whole when their backs got the ball.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#390868

Postby Mike88 » February 28th, 2021, 11:48 am

terminal7 wrote:
Farrell failed to roll away (he was trapped)


Not relevant -happens all the time and invariably a penalty - the bone of contention was that the ref told Farrell to tell his team to stop all the penalties otherwise etc . . He said that there would be a time out - then when all but 1 of the English were in a huddle, street smart Biggar asked ref could he take the penalty - ref said time on - Biggar takes pin point perfect lob for Adams to run on in the corner past a stranded Daly and the rest of the English are blissfully unaware under the posts discussing what discretion next to commit. Farrell naturally very upset - but should have not made such a spectacle of himself.

Always remember, England got back to 24-24 with 20 mins to go and not for the first time failed to deliver against an inferior (in skill terms) team but a real scrapper of a team. Wales in recent years under Gatland lost the habit of losing and Pivac has managed to tether that mindset this campaign.

So much for Eddie Jones usual mind games about Rees-Zammit and AWJ - he should try to sort out the mindset of his own players who clearly blew a winning opportunity.

T7


England had only themselves to blame for their defeat. Not only were they indisciplined giving away far too many kickable penalties, they were caught napping on two occasions firstly and understandably for the controversial Liam Williams try but secondly for the Hardy try. Here is an entry from the Telegraph describing what happened:

England are caught napping again! But this time there can be no complaints.

Hill is penalised for a ruck side-entry in front of the England posts and before you can blink Hardy is streaking away, quickly tapping the penalty, to score.


England really need to get their act together; they really should have done better even allowing for the poor refereeing decisions.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#391231

Postby didds » March 1st, 2021, 4:41 pm

bluedonkey wrote:Surely there is another team that could be a better idea than Italy? Argentina used to be mentioned. I don't think geography matters, most Argentina players play in Europe anyway.

Great Wales match today.



arg plays in the southern hemisphere competition already.

There isnt anybody else "higher" - short of maybe some south pacific island teams but thats a long way to come and play for them or the other teams to travel to. And there's nothing in it for eg Western samaoa being based in eg Spain.

Next cab on the rank is Georgia - but I cant see that being any different TBH (and WADR to Georgia). Georgia have played Italy twice, and lost both matches.

Its a problem in itself cos in effect geoegia and italy are probably tier 1.5 nations. Not strong enough for tier 1 (Georgia have never beaten a tier one nation) and way too strong for many tier 2 nations. Certainly Italy dropping out of the 6N wont improve tgheuir development as a national team, but after twenty years of 6N they clearly stuill cannot breach the gap. I cant see why Georgia would be any different either.

didds
Last edited by didds on March 1st, 2021, 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#391232

Postby didds » March 1st, 2021, 4:43 pm

terminal7 wrote:
Farrell failed to roll away (he was trapped)


Not relevant -happens all the time and invariably a penalty


Yup. Very standard approach at these levels. The basic tenet is dont wanna get pinged, dont end up there to be trapped. And its applied consistently.

didds

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#391273

Postby terminal7 » March 1st, 2021, 7:13 pm

I suspect Farrell was so peeved at giving away a simple penalty in front of the posts, he was upset and not thinking straight. Interestingly Daly stuck out towards the wing so clearly was aware that this could happen.

T7

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Re: 6 Nations Rugby

#391284

Postby PinkDalek » March 1st, 2021, 7:53 pm

terminal7 wrote:I suspect Farrell was so peeved at giving away a simple penalty in front of the posts, he was upset and not thinking straight. Interestingly Daly stuck out towards the wing so clearly was aware that this could happen.


I don't think Daly was anywhere near the wing. Wasn't it Ford that woke up and attempted to get over there (he didn't even have time to put his gumshield back in properly, it fell out as he attempted the tackle)?

Here you go https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/56225742


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