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Gmail and two factor authentification

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servodude
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464402

Postby servodude » December 9th, 2021, 12:25 am

Lootman wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Lootman wrote:I can avoid Yahoo if I choose to. But avoiding Google is pretty difficult. My phone requires a Google account for a start. And Gmail is the standard these days unless you want to be bombarded by video ads (Yahoo).

Plus I have had my main couple of email accounts now for 10/20 years. Everyone knows them and it would be a right royal pain in the butt to switch them over, and I would lose my instantly recognisable email addresses.

So no, I cannot just switch as easily as you suggest.

That's the very definition of you don't have to.

Not from my perspective.


If I was wearing a different hat I'd probably go...
Sounds like an ambitious set of requirements to expect for free.
If you want it then pay for it. If you don't then find another way.
In this case there is competition and it is trivially easy to switch from one carrier to another.
;)

But hey I get it's painful when things change...
From Google's perspective this is improving customer service and similarly they don't need the customers that can't see that
- they will not stop you from going somewhere else or putting in some system that circumvents their security
- if you needed to I'm pretty sure you can have IMAP forwarding done in the cloud for gmail (if that's the only thing you need - you can probably get instructions via a new thread here)

or you could try apple as an alternative - but they're a bit more draconian and restrictive on the old 2FA logging in thing

- sd

Infrasonic
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464428

Postby Infrasonic » December 9th, 2021, 8:24 am

There are non Google (Android) alternatives other than Apple mobile phone wise.

Native Linux phones exist, or you could try flashing an alternative OS' onto an old Android phone.

Don't expect the user experience to be as good as Android though, the reviews I've seen (even from the biased privacy evangelist types) have been lukewarm at best.

servodude
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464452

Postby servodude » December 9th, 2021, 10:14 am

Infrasonic wrote:There are non Google (Android) alternatives other than Apple mobile phone wise.

Native Linux phones exist, or you could try flashing an alternative OS' onto an old Android phone.

Don't expect the user experience to be as good as Android though, the reviews I've seen (even from the biased privacy evangelist types) have been lukewarm at best.

This would warrant a thread probably
- I've been intrigued by the idea... but with Google accounts being so ubiquitous and useful/necessary (even on apple devices) I've not really given it too much investigation
-sd

Lootman
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464511

Postby Lootman » December 9th, 2021, 1:37 pm

servodude wrote:
Lootman wrote:
BobbyD wrote:That's the very definition of you don't have to.

Not from my perspective.

If I was wearing a different hat I'd probably go...
Sounds like an ambitious set of requirements to expect for free.
If you want it then pay for it. If you don't then find another way.
In this case there is competition and it is trivially easy to switch from one carrier to another.
;)

But hey I get it's painful when things change...
From Google's perspective this is improving customer service and similarly they don't need the customers that can't see that
- they will not stop you from going somewhere else or putting in some system that circumvents their security
- if you needed to I'm pretty sure you can have IMAP forwarding done in the cloud for gmail (if that's the only thing you need - you can probably get instructions via a new thread here)

or you could try apple as an alternative - but they're a bit more draconian and restrictive on the old 2FA logging in thing

It may be "trivially easy" to switch to a new email provider but I lose my old email address and all the history associated with that, plus I have to notify everyone of the new address. So not trivially easy at all.

I also don't agree that Google doesn't want the millions of people who won't like this change. You only have to consider what is Google's business model to understand that we are what (indirectly) provides their ad revenue.

I guess I will wait and see what happens on the 14th. But one implication of this change is that I will probably mostly access Gmail via my phone, where I am permanently logged into Google, rather than on my laptop where I have to log in every time. That is probably the simplest workaround.

No way I am moving to Apple.

servodude
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464518

Postby servodude » December 9th, 2021, 1:59 pm

Lootman wrote:
servodude wrote:
Lootman wrote:Not from my perspective.

If I was wearing a different hat I'd probably go...
Sounds like an ambitious set of requirements to expect for free.
If you want it then pay for it. If you don't then find another way.
In this case there is competition and it is trivially easy to switch from one carrier to another.
;)

But hey I get it's painful when things change...
From Google's perspective this is improving customer service and similarly they don't need the customers that can't see that
- they will not stop you from going somewhere else or putting in some system that circumvents their security
- if you needed to I'm pretty sure you can have IMAP forwarding done in the cloud for gmail (if that's the only thing you need - you can probably get instructions via a new thread here)

or you could try apple as an alternative - but they're a bit more draconian and restrictive on the old 2FA logging in thing

It may be "trivially easy" to switch to a new email provider but I lose my old email address and all the history associated with that, plus I have to notify everyone of the new address. So not trivially easy at all.

I also don't agree that Google doesn't want the millions of people who won't like this change. You only have to consider what is Google's business model to understand that we are what (indirectly) provides their ad revenue.

I guess I will wait and see what happens on the 14th. But one implication of this change is that I will probably mostly access Gmail via my phone, where I am permanently logged into Google, rather than on my laptop where I have to log in every time. That is probably the simplest workaround.

No way I am moving to Apple.


I could probably drag out a few more quotes from yourself that would apply - but hey you know how you've expressed your opinion about folk that don't just shut up and suck it up when what they're forced to accept changes .. so what's the point?!

Do you remember the old advert about the guy who didn't realize how easy it was to break in to his own house until he tried (using a ladder round the back))?
- if you try REALLY hard you can probably see how that applies here
:)
If you can't.. it still applies; even if you don't understand why

Stay well
- and I really hope no one ever messes up, or unnecessarily locates and wipes your phone through a web login because of your aversion to stopping it from happening

Peace
-sd

Lootman
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464520

Postby Lootman » December 9th, 2021, 2:07 pm

servodude wrote:
Lootman wrote:
servodude wrote:If I was wearing a different hat I'd probably go...
Sounds like an ambitious set of requirements to expect for free.
If you want it then pay for it. If you don't then find another way.
In this case there is competition and it is trivially easy to switch from one carrier to another.
;)

But hey I get it's painful when things change...
From Google's perspective this is improving customer service and similarly they don't need the customers that can't see that
- they will not stop you from going somewhere else or putting in some system that circumvents their security
- if you needed to I'm pretty sure you can have IMAP forwarding done in the cloud for gmail (if that's the only thing you need - you can probably get instructions via a new thread here)

or you could try apple as an alternative - but they're a bit more draconian and restrictive on the old 2FA logging in thing

It may be "trivially easy" to switch to a new email provider but I lose my old email address and all the history associated with that, plus I have to notify everyone of the new address. So not trivially easy at all.

I also don't agree that Google doesn't want the millions of people who won't like this change. You only have to consider what is Google's business model to understand that we are what (indirectly) provides their ad revenue.

I guess I will wait and see what happens on the 14th. But one implication of this change is that I will probably mostly access Gmail via my phone, where I am permanently logged into Google, rather than on my laptop where I have to log in every time. That is probably the simplest workaround.

No way I am moving to Apple.

I could probably drag out a few more quotes from yourself that would apply - but hey you know how you've expressed your opinion about folk that don't just shut up and suck it up when what they're forced to accept changes .. so what's the point?!

Do you remember the old advert about the guy who didn't realize how easy it was to break in to his own house until he tried (using a ladder round the back))?
- if you try REALLY hard you can probably see how that applies here
:)
If you can't.. it still applies; even if you don't understand why

Stay well
- and I really hope no one ever messes up, or unnecessarily locates and wipes your phone through a web login because of your aversion to stopping it from happening

I will let you know how my method works, since you don't seem to believe that it will.

I have never had an email account "hacked" in the 25-odd years I have had one. And as I said before, other than the one I use for financial stuff it would not bother me that much if I was hacked. So users should be able to set their own level of and appetite for risk rather than have a one-size fits all "solution" rammed down everyone's throat.

Interestingly I have three Gmail accounts and only one of them has received a message about this, so the "solution" may not be being implemented universally anyway.

Infrasonic
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464531

Postby Infrasonic » December 9th, 2021, 3:02 pm

There are other ways of doing 2FA like hardware keys (USB/NFC/BT + biometric) for those reticent about being forced to give Google or any other big operator more and more personal data.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/best-security-key/

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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464565

Postby Midsmartin » December 9th, 2021, 4:49 pm

Reading what Google has said, which is that they will enable 2fa "by default", that probably still leaves you free to turn it off again if they they to do this.

If you feel compelled to change email provider, you can do this gradually. Just have the Gmail account forward incoming mail to your new account.

You can then identify people who still use the old address perhaps by filtering forwarded messages into a separate folder, and remind them that you have changed it.

On your laptop, why not set up Gmail in Outlook or Thunderbird (free to download), and then you won't have to log in every time?

I must admit I don't entirely see why you object. Perhaps you could enable 2fa experimentally on an account, which gives you the chance to test it and turn it off if you don't like it.

Lootman
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464567

Postby Lootman » December 9th, 2021, 4:56 pm

Midsmartin wrote:Reading what Google has said, which is that they will enable 2fa "by default", that probably still leaves you free to turn it off again if they they to do this.

I must admit I don't entirely see why you object. Perhaps you could enable 2fa experimentally on an account, which gives you the chance to test it and turn it off if you don't like it.

Sure, if it can be switched off, then I have no objection. I guess I will find out on the 14th, which is the date Google told me they will implement this change (for one of my three Google accounts; coincidentally the one I would most want to secure).

I don't use Outlook but may investigate further whether I can be permanently logged in on my laptop in the manner you suggest. This is the case with my phone anyway.

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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464586

Postby swill453 » December 9th, 2021, 5:50 pm

Lootman wrote:I don't use Outlook but may investigate further whether I can be permanently logged in on my laptop in the manner you suggest. This is the case with my phone anyway.

I must admit I assumed you must have some objection to staying logged in to Google on the laptop.

I use 2FA on two Google accounts, yet am permanently logged in to both on a Windows PC, Android tablet and Android phone.

The "2FA" aspect only intrudes if I try to log in on a new device.

Scott.

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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464588

Postby Lootman » December 9th, 2021, 5:53 pm

swill453 wrote:
Lootman wrote:I don't use Outlook but may investigate further whether I can be permanently logged in on my laptop in the manner you suggest. This is the case with my phone anyway.

I must admit I assumed you must have some objection to staying logged in to Google on the laptop.

I use 2FA on two Google accounts, yet am permanently logged in to both on a Windows PC, Android tablet and Android phone.

The "2FA" aspect only intrudes if I try to log in on a new device.

Fair point. I regularly delete all history and cookies on my laptop, and that has the effect of logging me out of any applications that I have open.

Funnily enough I do that for security reasons so I may now have to reconsider. :D

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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#464614

Postby Midsmartin » December 9th, 2021, 7:53 pm

If you're that concerned about laptop security then I would look at using disk encryption, included (bitlocker) if you happen to have windows professional.

Lootman
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#465816

Postby Lootman » December 14th, 2021, 5:54 pm

As promised Google switched this on for me today.

It worked fine. The one odd thing was that it was not a code texted to my phone, which I then enter on my laptop, which is how every other 2FA I have seen works. In fact it is not a text message at all.

Rather I receive a "Google Prompt" on my phone which I respond to on my phone, and then Gmail on my laptop magically works. I'd never actually noticed getting a Google Prompt before so that threw me for a minute.

Hopefully I won't have to pay roaming charges if I am overseas and have to do this.

Maybe if you don't have an Android phone it works a different way?

servodude
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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#465936

Postby servodude » December 15th, 2021, 2:38 am

Lootman wrote:As promised Google switched this on for me today.

It worked fine. The one odd thing was that it was not a code texted to my phone, which I then enter on my laptop, which is how every other 2FA I have seen works. In fact it is not a text message at all.

Rather I receive a "Google Prompt" on my phone which I respond to on my phone, and then Gmail on my laptop magically works. I'd never actually noticed getting a Google Prompt before so that threw me for a minute.

Hopefully I won't have to pay roaming charges if I am overseas and have to do this.

Maybe if you don't have an Android phone it works a different way?


yeah that's part of your google account being way much more than an email thing
- whether that's a good/bad thing is kind of moot in the world of mobiles at the moment as the only other (realistic :roll: ) option is the other tech-behemoth-hegemony

it shouldn't be too painful to live with for normal access (read not behind an enterprise account) as once things are paired they're paired
i do think external IP address gets considered for browsers - but again once that's recognised it's recognised (so if you're using say a laptop in a few locations there's a once per desk kind of authentication)
- if you're overseas, and avoiding roaming, wifi will work if you ever need it for you phone to authenticate you

-sd

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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#465943

Postby AF62 » December 15th, 2021, 7:08 am

Lootman wrote:Hopefully I won't have to pay roaming charges if I am overseas and have to do this.


The phone that receives the prompt needs to be connected to the internet, whether that is WiFi or roaming mobile data.

If you think you won’t have internet access then you could install an Authenticator app to the phone as these don’t need an internet connection to work.

With an Authenticator app you would add your Google account to it by scanning a QR code Google provide, and then once the account is ‘in’ the app then going forward it will generate rolling time limited 2FA codes.

Google offer such an app - https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... n_GB&gl=US (as well as Microsoft and various third parties) and using such an app allows you to use 2FA with a range of other organisations and give extra protection to those accounts.

Using the Authenticator app doesn’t replace the prompts, but is a fall back solution if you don’t or can’t receive the prompts.

Alternatively with Google you can print a list of ten ‘one time use’ authentication codes but obviously you would need to keep them extremely safe.

Lootman wrote: Maybe if you don't have an Android phone it works a different way?


If you are using an Apple iPhone it works the same way if you have the Google Mail app installed.

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Re: Gmail and two factor authentification

#467295

Postby xeny » December 19th, 2021, 3:11 pm

Lootman wrote:Fair point. I regularly delete all history and cookies on my laptop, and that has the effect of logging me out of any applications that I have open.

Funnily enough I do that for security reasons so I may now have to reconsider. :D


I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one browser that will delete all cookies on exit except for those specified. That behaviour may help?


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