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Nuisance Phone Calls

Seek assistance with all types of tech. - computer, phone, TV, heating controls etc.
Alaric
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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311011

Postby Alaric » May 22nd, 2020, 1:18 pm

swill453 wrote:So do these have fake UK Caller Id? That shouldn't be allowed, and should be simple for the system to prevent.


You might hope so, but the system doesn't. You can report them by 1572, but that doesn't achieve much as it's a new fake number each time.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311017

Postby mc2fool » May 22nd, 2020, 1:33 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:And what about IP telephony where there is no 'real number'? And who is going to take care of the 'registration' and administer what would be quite a large database? That's before trying to filter international calls, like those call centres in India...

The "who" is obviously the telecom companies, and as for IP telephony, international calls, etc, according to the page Infrasonic linked to*:

"Since the controls were introduced in April this year, HMRC has reduced to zero the number of phone scams spoofing genuine inbound HMRC numbers." https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cont ... ofing-hmrc

It would seem unlikely that none of the 100,000 phone scam reports they had in the previous year came from IP phones or internationally, so they've obviously figured a way of handling those.

* Thanks, I wasn't aware the idea had already been employed. :D

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311020

Postby AF62 » May 22nd, 2020, 1:39 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:I haven't tried a BT 'phone that supposedly blocks scam calls but I assume it checks the incoming Caller ID against a database of known scammers but I have doubts whether this would be 100% effective because of the ease of creating fake Caller IDs possibly for each call.


That isn’t how the BT call blocking phones work.

You have an option of which calls are allowed to ring your phone, those in the phone’s phone book you have put in automatically do, but you choose to send international, phone box, number withheld, or anything not in the phone book to a ‘holding pen’. The ‘holding pen’ in the phone answers the call and tells the caller to speak their name and press a particular button on their keypad. Do that then your phone rings, don’t do that and the phone tells them to go away, and all without you being disturbed.

So for the automated calls, if you chose to look at your inbound call history you would see a whole bunch of (fake) caller id numbers that were rejected.

There used to be a problem with some calls from hospitals, banks, etc. where the staff calling didn’t know what to do, but these days they are more used to it, so just follow the required steps.

As for some sort of database of banned CLI numbers - hah! These people are crooks operating the other side of the world. What on earth could the UK do which would persuade them not to do what they are doing. And good luck to the UK trying to find a technological solution.

ReformedCharacter
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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311025

Postby ReformedCharacter » May 22nd, 2020, 1:46 pm

mc2fool wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:And what about IP telephony where there is no 'real number'? And who is going to take care of the 'registration' and administer what would be quite a large database? That's before trying to filter international calls, like those call centres in India...

The "who" is obviously the telecom companies, and as for IP telephony, international calls, etc, according to the page Infrasonic linked to*:

"Since the controls were introduced in April this year, HMRC has reduced to zero the number of phone scams spoofing genuine inbound HMRC numbers." https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cont ... ofing-hmrc

It would seem unlikely that none of the 100,000 phone scam reports they had in the previous year came from IP phones or internationally, so they've obviously figured a way of handling those.

* Thanks, I wasn't aware the idea had already been employed. :D


Unless you know that it is possible to spoof a caller ID on an ordinary 'phone system, I'd assume they were all using IP telephony.

It can be done as HMRC have apparently shown, but that is for a relatively small quantity of numbers, trying to do the same for all numbers would be many orders of magnitude more difficult.

RC

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311028

Postby ReformedCharacter » May 22nd, 2020, 1:54 pm

AF62 wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:I haven't tried a BT 'phone that supposedly blocks scam calls but I assume it checks the incoming Caller ID against a database of known scammers but I have doubts whether this would be 100% effective because of the ease of creating fake Caller IDs possibly for each call.


That isn’t how the BT call blocking phones work.

You have an option of which calls are allowed to ring your phone, those in the phone’s phone book you have put in automatically do, but you choose to send international, phone box, number withheld, or anything not in the phone book to a ‘holding pen’. The ‘holding pen’ in the phone answers the call and tells the caller to speak their name and press a particular button on their keypad. Do that then your phone rings, don’t do that and the phone tells them to go away, and all without you being disturbed.

So for the automated calls, if you chose to look at your inbound call history you would see a whole bunch of (fake) caller id numbers that were rejected.

So, nothing particular to BT then? That's just an ordinary fancy 'phone with some basic software. But I wonder how it stops <some twit from a double-glazing company> pressing a particular button on their keypad...?

RC

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311029

Postby swill453 » May 22nd, 2020, 1:56 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:So, nothing particular to BT then? That's just an ordinary fancy 'phone with some basic software. But I wonder how it stops <some twit from a double-glazing company> pressing a particular button on their keypad...?

You might wonder that. I just accept the fact that they never do.

Scott.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311039

Postby ReformedCharacter » May 22nd, 2020, 2:04 pm

swill453 wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:So, nothing particular to BT then? That's just an ordinary fancy 'phone with some basic software. But I wonder how it stops <some twit from a double-glazing company> pressing a particular button on their keypad...?

You might wonder that. I just accept the fact that they never do.

Scott.

Perhaps they can't be bothered but I think we can be certain that if everyone used such a 'phone then the unwanted callers would simply start pressing the extra button, it's hardly a lot of extra work compared with the time taken to deliver their scripted spiel.

RC

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311052

Postby swill453 » May 22nd, 2020, 2:23 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:
swill453 wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:So, nothing particular to BT then? That's just an ordinary fancy 'phone with some basic software. But I wonder how it stops <some twit from a double-glazing company> pressing a particular button on their keypad...?

You might wonder that. I just accept the fact that they never do.

Perhaps they can't be bothered but I think we can be certain that if everyone used such a 'phone then the unwanted callers would simply start pressing the extra button, it's hardly a lot of extra work compared with the time taken to deliver their scripted spiel.

They'd also have to announce themselves in such a way that it would persuade you to actually take the call. Like I said - they don't.

And only a tiny minority of people are likely to buy these phones anyway. Look at these boards - they've been mentioned loads of times, everyone who has one seems to rave about them. Yet the topic of nuisance calls continually comes back.

(Note I know it's not a solution for nuisance calls on mobiles.)

Scott.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311055

Postby mc2fool » May 22nd, 2020, 2:25 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:Unless you know that it is possible to spoof a caller ID on an ordinary 'phone system, I'd assume they were all using IP telephony.

It's available on business lines, provided your PBX supports it, so that outgoing calls from your sales dept can come from an 0800 number while those from your customer services dept come from an 0345 one, etc. However, those are "genuine" uses and I suspect you're right for those spoofing the caller ID.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311066

Postby Bouleversee » May 22nd, 2020, 2:43 pm

Can you get a trio of receivers with that BT blocking facility? Unfortunately, my daughter had already ordered me a trio of Panasonic ones when the subject last came up. Unlike their Panasonic predecessors, which were fine, they are terrible and I am thinking of ditching them.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311076

Postby mc2fool » May 22nd, 2020, 2:57 pm

Hmmm...well, according to https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0021/116670/cli-guidance.pdf the Calling Line Identification (CLI) data contains potentially two numbers: the "real" number and the number you'll be shown.

"1.1 Calling Line Identification (CLI) facilities provide information about the party making a telephone call. CLI Data consists of the caller’s line identity along with a privacy marking, which indicates whether the number can be shared with the recipient of the call. ...

1.2 Every call must have CLI Data that represents the point of ingress in to the network , this is known as the ‘Network Number’. It may also include another number representing the identity of the caller which is the telephone number displayed to the recipient of the call, this is known as the ‘Presentation Number’. In many situations, the Network Number and the Presentation Number are the same number.
"

It goes on to say that Communication Providers (CPs) must provide for both:

"A valid, diallable number which uniquely identifies the caller

4.10 The General Conditions require that CPs must present a valid, diallable telephone number which uniquely identifies the caller.

• A valid number is one which complies with the International public telecommunication numbering plan (Recommendation ITU -T E.164). Where a UK number is used, it must be a number that is designated as a ‘Telephone Number available for Allocation’ in the National Telephone Numbering Plan and be shown as allocated in the National Numbering Scheme.

• A diallable number must be one that is in service and can be used to make a return or subsequent call.

• A number uniquely identifies the caller (which can be an individual or an organisation) where it is one which the user has authority to use, either because it is a number which has been allocated to the user or because the user has been given permission (either directly or indirectly) to use the number by a third party who has been allocated that number.
"

So, basically, there shouldn't be any "fake" numbers. Unfortunately the kicker though is that "this guidance is not legally binding" (2.12). :(

swill453
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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311079

Postby swill453 » May 22nd, 2020, 3:05 pm

Bouleversee wrote:Can you get a trio of receivers with that BT blocking facility? Unfortunately, my daughter had already ordered me a trio of Panasonic ones when the subject last came up. Unlike their Panasonic predecessors, which were fine, they are terrible and I am thinking of ditching them.

Yes https://www.amazon.co.uk/BT-Digital-Cor ... B01IT0R9KG

(Not a recommendation for this particular model).

Scott.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311104

Postby Stompa » May 22nd, 2020, 4:09 pm

swill453 wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:Can you get a trio of receivers with that BT blocking facility? Unfortunately, my daughter had already ordered me a trio of Panasonic ones when the subject last came up. Unlike their Panasonic predecessors, which were fine, they are terrible and I am thinking of ditching them.

Yes https://www.amazon.co.uk/BT-Digital-Cor ... B01IT0R9KG

(Not a recommendation for this particular model).

Scott.

As far as I can see those do not have call guardian built in, which is the crucial feature needed.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311112

Postby swill453 » May 22nd, 2020, 4:27 pm

Stompa wrote:
swill453 wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:Can you get a trio of receivers with that BT blocking facility? Unfortunately, my daughter had already ordered me a trio of Panasonic ones when the subject last came up. Unlike their Panasonic predecessors, which were fine, they are terrible and I am thinking of ditching them.

Yes https://www.amazon.co.uk/BT-Digital-Cor ... B01IT0R9KG

As far as I can see those do not have call guardian built in, which is the crucial feature needed.

You may be right, it was from a quick Google on my phone. I think this one does https://www.amazon.co.uk/BT-Cordless-Nu ... B0787G4BJR

Scott.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311126

Postby ReformedCharacter » May 22nd, 2020, 4:54 pm

Bouleversee wrote:Can you get a trio of receivers with that BT blocking facility? Unfortunately, my daughter had already ordered me a trio of Panasonic ones when the subject last came up. Unlike their Panasonic predecessors, which were fine, they are terrible and I am thinking of ditching them.

Another option is to use True Call:

https://www.truecall.co.uk/product-p/cb1.htm

Which AFAIK should work with one or more existing 'phones. I think True Call is used by some of the BT 'phones, such as:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BT-Cordless-Nu ... 798&sr=8-1

RC

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311133

Postby Bouleversee » May 22nd, 2020, 5:02 pm

Expensive. Not worth it for the number I get.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311135

Postby AF62 » May 22nd, 2020, 5:05 pm

mc2fool wrote:So, basically, there shouldn't be any "fake" numbers. Unfortunately the kicker though is that "this guidance is not legally binding" (2.12). :(


Astonishing the crooks who are trying to con people into installing spyware or sell them dodgy 'investments' don't stick to the rules!

And even if it was legally binding, I really can't see Ofcom going half way round the world to try to fine these crooks.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311136

Postby AF62 » May 22nd, 2020, 5:09 pm

Bouleversee wrote:Expensive. Not worth it for the number I get.


You can often buy refurbished ones quite cheaply. I picked up mine for about £20 (and sold the old non-call blocking one on eBay for the same).

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311140

Postby Stompa » May 22nd, 2020, 5:23 pm

Bouleversee wrote:Expensive. Not worth it for the number I get.

FWIW I've had mine for almost 5 years now, in which time it's blocked 850 junk calls.

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Re: Nuisance Phone Calls

#311146

Postby mc2fool » May 22nd, 2020, 5:32 pm

AF62 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:So, basically, there shouldn't be any "fake" numbers. Unfortunately the kicker though is that "this guidance is not legally binding" (2.12). :(

Astonishing the crooks who are trying to con people into installing spyware or sell them dodgy 'investments' don't stick to the rules!

And even if it was legally binding, I really can't see Ofcom going half way round the world to try to fine these crooks.

Don't be silly, the rules aren't on the crooks, they're on the telecoms companies. :roll:


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