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Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

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staffordian
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Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324419

Postby staffordian » July 7th, 2020, 6:59 pm

Our local council are, no doubt at great expense, having most of the City cabled by a Swedish fibre company. Presumably they are not covering areas already served by the Virgin network.

As they are currently working on our estate, I can see just how labour intensive and disruptive this work is.

But I wonder if there is any point in work like this given the current availability of 4G, the spread of 5G and presumably the future introduction of even faster mobile internet.

It almost seems like continuing to build canals when railways have been invented.

Thoughts?

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324423

Postby AleisterCrowley » July 7th, 2020, 7:10 pm

Oversimplified perhaps but..
Fibre - effectively unlimited bandwidth, very cheap per Gb, Stable and reliable

Radio - limited spectrum resource which is hugely expensive to utilise (licence fees, all the network boxes)
Also highly variable signal path, and throughput degrades as number of users increases
Given the choice, fibre wins every time.

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324550

Postby Infrasonic » July 8th, 2020, 11:02 am

1Gb symmetrical FTTP/H or cable (and even 10Gb if you have deep enough pockets) are being rolled out to many areas now.
I'm actually thinking of going back to it having been reliant on 4G for five years now (via my smartphones WiFi hotspot). The prices for the basic cable/FTTP packages are starting to look very attractive. Virgin cable and Hyperoptic FTTP are available in my area. Virgin are already wired up.

A friend has the Hyperoptic 1Gb symmetric FTTP service and even after a year he's still getting 900Mb+ both ways at all times, which allows him to run Adobe cloud services for his work without issue. There's a free Samknows monitoring box on it as well.

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324566

Postby Julian » July 8th, 2020, 12:06 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:Oversimplified perhaps but..
Fibre - effectively unlimited bandwidth, very cheap per Gb, Stable and reliable

Radio - limited spectrum resource which is hugely expensive to utilise (licence fees, all the network boxes)
Also highly variable signal path, and throughput degrades as number of users increases
Given the choice, fibre wins every time.

As well as those excellent points I wonder whether power consumption might be something that should be added to the list.

I can't imagine that broadcasting a 1Gbps data stream (for instance) from a mast across maybe an average 0.5km air gap with all the signal attenuation that implies, and probably also needing to broadcast that signal if not in all directions then at least across some percentage of the full 360 degrees(*) field of view in order to connect reliably with the receiving device thus further increasing the power required, would be anything like as energy efficient per byte of data transferred when compared to transmitting that same data between two well-defined stable endpoints connected by a a well-designed (low-loss) fibre cable. All of those mWh of power saved from all those masks across the planet presumably add up and every little bit helps when it comes to the new environmentally-conscious energy-saving world (and the internet providers save on electricity bills).

(*) I'm not sure how sophisticated the directional control is on mobile masts. They seem to have multiple antennae pointing in different directions so presumably each one serves a specific subset of the mast's 360 degree field of view but I am unsure if those sub-antennae can currently, or are planned to evolve to be able to in the future, form multiple independent steerable breams from each antenna. That's certainly something that is done in military applications (e.g. PESA and AESA radars) but I suspect that technology is currently far too expensive to implement on the scale that would be required for mobile masts.

- Julian

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324572

Postby AleisterCrowley » July 8th, 2020, 12:27 pm

Most sites are at least 'sectorised' , so three antennas cover 360 degrees. Beamforming is also possible with later technologies but I'm not up to speed on current implementations
Most importantly there is adaptive power control at the transmitter and mobile, so power is reduced to minimum required

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324580

Postby staffordian » July 8th, 2020, 1:30 pm

Thanks all.

Probably not a bad idea then.

I must say I'm tempted by the speed, but not the price.

I might see if there are any better offers once things are up and running.

I have FTTC atnd the moment and it meets my needs. Anything faster would currently be simply a nice to have, though I guess this may change as technology and services expand.

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324600

Postby xeny » July 8th, 2020, 3:16 pm

Julian wrote:
I can't imagine that broadcasting a 1Gbps data stream (for instance) from a mast across maybe an average 0.5km air gap with all the signal attenuation that implies, and probably also needing to broadcast that signal if not in all directions then at least across some percentage of the full 360 degrees(*) field of view in order to connect reliably with the receiving device thus further increasing the power required, would be anything like as energy efficient per byte of data transferred when compared to transmitting that same data between two well-defined stable endpoints connected by a a well-designed (low-loss) fibre cable. All of those mWh of power saved from all those masks across the planet presumably add up and every little bit helps when it comes to the new environmentally-conscious energy-saving world (and the internet providers save on electricity bills).



I can't even begin to guess how that compares to the CO2 footprint of the plant digging the trenches for laying fresh fibre. A fascinating set of trade offs.

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324612

Postby AleisterCrowley » July 8th, 2020, 4:09 pm

xeny wrote:
Julian wrote:
I can't imagine that broadcasting a 1Gbps data stream (for instance) from a mast across maybe an average 0.5km air gap with all the signal attenuation that implies, and probably also needing to broadcast that signal if not in all directions then at least across some percentage of the full 360 degrees(*) field of view in order to connect reliably with the receiving device thus further increasing the power required, would be anything like as energy efficient per byte of data transferred when compared to transmitting that same data between two well-defined stable endpoints connected by a a well-designed (low-loss) fibre cable. All of those mWh of power saved from all those masks across the planet presumably add up and every little bit helps when it comes to the new environmentally-conscious energy-saving world (and the internet providers save on electricity bills).



I can't even begin to guess how that compares to the CO2 footprint of the plant digging the trenches for laying fresh fibre. A fascinating set of trade offs.


Ah, but the majority of cell sites will be connected back to the core network via fibre (although some use microwave where fibre is not possible /desirable)

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324613

Postby Mike4 » July 8th, 2020, 4:10 pm

Snorvey wrote:A friend and I once discussed a similar thing, but this time it was air travel v land travel. It was argued that airports are green because you only have to build airports and not the interconnecting roads and / or rail, tearing up the countryside as you go (although the likes of Michael Portillo would call them scenic rail routes - Aye, well maybe they're maybe scenic from inside the train.....

We never did finish the discussion. I guess the answer depends on the length of the journey.

Maybe I'm weird but I find railway tracks extremely pleasing and aesthetic to look at. Similarly power lines looping long distances across scenic views.

Power station cooling towers are well, pretty cool too.



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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324619

Postby scrumpyjack » July 8th, 2020, 4:42 pm

It is curious that Openreach have laid fibreoptic down our country road with termination points on the telephone poles. They did this well over a year ago. Their website shows my house as being able to get FTTP. However when I check various suppliers websites, they don't show my house as being able to get FTTP. The exception is that some of the business oriented sites do (eg Zen business shows it is available, but Zen Home says it isn't.)

Any ideas why this is?

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324629

Postby GrandOiseau » July 8th, 2020, 5:07 pm

staffordian wrote:I have FTTC atnd the moment and it meets my needs. Anything faster would currently be simply a nice to have, though I guess this may change as technology and services expand.

Is your FTTC reliable?

I switched over recently partly because of the reliability issue i.e., reduced speeds and drop outs.

Cost wise for me there wasn't much in it (for a 200 Mbps service).

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324647

Postby JohnB » July 8th, 2020, 6:16 pm

Of course 5G will need many more transmitters, and they will all need to be on fibre themselves.

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324715

Postby staffordian » July 8th, 2020, 10:29 pm

GrandOiseau wrote:
staffordian wrote:I have FTTC atnd the moment and it meets my needs. Anything faster would currently be simply a nice to have, though I guess this may change as technology and services expand.

Is your FTTC reliable?

I switched over recently partly because of the reliability issue i.e., reduced speeds and drop outs.

Cost wise for me there wasn't much in it (for a 200 Mbps service).

Touch wood, yes. It's been rock solid and fine for things such as Netflix streaming etc. Ironically, the only connection issues I've heard of locally are recent ones where the fibre installation contractors have severed the Openreach cables :D

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324837

Postby bruncher » July 9th, 2020, 12:57 pm

staffordian wrote:Our local council are, no doubt at great expense, having most of the City cabled by a Swedish fibre company. Presumably they are not covering areas already served by the Virgin network.

As they are currently working on our estate, I can see just how labour intensive and disruptive this work is.

But I wonder if there is any point in work like this given the current availability of 4G, the spread of 5G and presumably the future introduction of even faster mobile internet.

It almost seems like continuing to build canals when railways have been invented.

Thoughts?


I ordered FTTP, but have canceled the order because of the work involved - digging a trench through my front drive. Also the lack of choice about where the external and internal kit is positioned. If you but a new cooker or TV you get to chose what it looks like and where it is positioned. What is it about internet provision - why is it the 'industry standard' for there always to be so much uncertainty about the design and implementation.

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324842

Postby ReformedCharacter » July 9th, 2020, 1:32 pm

bruncher wrote:
I ordered FTTP, but have canceled the order because of the work involved - digging a trench through my front drive. Also the lack of choice about where the external and internal kit is positioned. If you but a new cooker or TV you get to chose what it looks like and where it is positioned. What is it about internet provision - why is it the 'industry standard' for there always to be so much uncertainty about the design and implementation.

I must admit to being puzzled by this, it seems as if BT Openreach use different techniques to run FTTP. Mine comes from the nearest pole and then overhead to the top of the house then down to a box about 200mm from ground level and then enters through a hole in the front door frame. It took a little more than an hour for the work.

RC

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324859

Postby kiloran » July 9th, 2020, 2:53 pm

Snorvey wrote:There are no poles in my street / immediate area - only a big green box in the street where I assume the fibre goes in and the copper wire to the houses comes out. So, digging up the street would be the only option....although I wonder why they can't just attach the fibre to the copper wires and 'pull it through' like an electrician does? Too brittle / fragile?

3-4 years ago, they laid a new gas main in our street and needed to put a new pipe into our house. They used a mole, which drilled about 50 feet from the road, under our lawn, under some paving, a wall and tarmac, under a fence and to the side of the house. The only digging required was a hole at the side of the house to access the new pipe and connect to the meter.

Great technology! I'm sure it could be used for fibre-optic cables.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glpsaCSvZsI

--kiloran

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324866

Postby staffordian » July 9th, 2020, 3:29 pm

kiloran wrote:
Snorvey wrote:There are no poles in my street / immediate area - only a big green box in the street where I assume the fibre goes in and the copper wire to the houses comes out. So, digging up the street would be the only option....although I wonder why they can't just attach the fibre to the copper wires and 'pull it through' like an electrician does? Too brittle / fragile?

3-4 years ago, they laid a new gas main in our street and needed to put a new pipe into our house. They used a mole, which drilled about 50 feet from the road, under our lawn, under some paving, a wall and tarmac, under a fence and to the side of the house. The only digging required was a hole at the side of the house to access the new pipe and connect to the meter.

Great technology! I'm sure it could be used for fibre-optic cables.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glpsaCSvZsI

--kiloran

I wrote a post an hour ago, but it seems to have not posted.

I mentioned moling for gas pipes, but suspect the fibre cables are laid far nearer the surface (for ease and cheapness) and as a consequence, the default (or only?) option would be a shallow trench. We have some block paving across the front of our property so this would need to be disturbed to get a cable into the house. Not something I'd fancy, as IMHO it rarely goes back properly. Another reason not to bother yet, I think.

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Re: Is there any point to fibre optic networks?

#324914

Postby GrandOiseau » July 9th, 2020, 6:18 pm

We has ours done recently. We were lucky that there was already a tube to the house and the cable had already been pushed through when they did the main work along the pavement. Full story here viewtopic.php?f=39&t=23473&start=40.

But if it hadn't they said they would have taken up the block paving to put in a shallow trench to the house. Where doing a trench is more problematic they go the aerial route.

It's just the nature of it. Depends how much you want the service as to whether you want the hassle.

Oh, as far as I know if they did have to dig a trench we could have specified it to go anywhere along the front of the house. I am not sure it makes much odds to them - unless it's a lot more problematic to dig the trench.


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