Which Apple Computer is better? 16" Macbook Pro or 27" iMac?

[servodude]

The iMac range is supposed to present the computer more as an appliance. In that light it's not really inconsistent is it? If you don't want an appliance at appliance pricing then pay more for a maintainable model, like the Pros. If you do buy the appliance, there are external storage options.

GS

It's perfectly consistent - but it is also binding the entire machine, all the hardware and invested energy to the weakest link, to the most likely point of failure.
It's built-in obsolescence which is rightly being put under scrutiny these days

-sd

Hold up! Is the original claim even true? I can't find any evidence of soldered hard drives in iMacs, only SSDs. Please can someone provide a link about the hard drives. I agree, for maintenance it's not so great to have an HD soldered in, but HD failure doesn't make the entire iMac useless, just requires use of an external drive.... which is annoying but not a huge sacrifice on a non-portable machine. But as I said, is it even true???

Thx.

GS

The OS drives are effectively on board eMMC (or an m2 without a carrier board)
So yes.
Which is fine in a beaglebone black... but I think it's not good in a computer where there's a huge screen as part of the same package.

-sd

[PrincessB]

No upgrades just the ones shown on the site.

Which do you prefer? And which is better?

I like desktops and I like a decent sized display, so I would prefer the 27" desktop unit.

I know you said no upgrades, but 8GB of main memory with that specification is just plain wrong. You've got the weird situation where you've got as much memory on the graphics card as you do for the system.

Of course if you can't decide, why not just have one of each, but if you do buy the desktop, go for 16 or 32GB of memory, it might not make much difference immediately, further down the line it could be a wise move.

Might as well add that desktops can have a longer life than laptops as they don't get dropped and should you spill liquid into the keyboard, you just need to buy another one rather than spend lots on repairs.

B.

[GoSeigen]

The OS drives are effectively on board eMMC (or an m2 without a carrier board)
So yes.
Which is fine in a beaglebone black... but I think it's not good in a computer where there's a huge screen as part of the same package.

-sd

sd, you've floored me with the jargon there. No idea what eMMC is, or m2 or beaglebone blacks and google barely helps. Mind you I haven't gone shopping for a Mac for a while so may be out of date.


sd and breelander: The original criticism was of Apple soldering in hard drives, but you guys are talking about solid state drives, so I'll just assume Redmires made a mistake.


SSD is a different beast altogether -- no moving parts -- so why the sudden panic about having them soldered in? It's been done for all sorts of storage for decades: RAM, ROM, DRAM, FLASH etc etc.

I mean, this can't be a worse problem than not having a built-in floppy drive, or the lack of COM serial ports in Macs?


GS

[Lanark]

HD failure doesn't make the entire iMac useless, just requires use of an external drive.... which is annoying but not a huge sacrifice on a non-portable machine. But as I said, is it even true???

Thx.

GS

Most new Macs are specced up with SSDs there are still some options for a fusion drive on some models.

Secure boot will by default not allow the machine to start from an external disk
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208330
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208198#externalboot

So unless you manage to predict when the SSD drive will fail and turn off all the relevant security settings the mac could end up bricked.

One option to consider is buying a highly specced Mac mini and a good monitor.

Mac mini with 1TB storage
£1,199

Monitors with >200ppm (retina)

https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/H ... 5k-display
£1,179

https://www.dell.com/en-uk/shop/dell-ul ... ccessories
£3,470

27" iMac with 1TB storage
£2,199

So a Mac mini plus a separate monitor is £180 more, but you can keep using the monitor if it outlives the SSD.

[GoSeigen]

I know you said no upgrades, but 8GB of main memory with that specification is just plain wrong. You've got the weird situation where you've got as much memory on the graphics card as you do for the system.

Of course if you can't decide, why not just have one of each, but if you do buy the desktop, go for 16 or 32GB of memory, it might not make much difference immediately, further down the line it could be a wise move.

In the iMacs the memory is fitted in SO-Dimm slots, and the OP can expand it whenever he likes, he needn't pay premium Apple prices at this time. I think he'll be able to max out his memory when he's ready at a much better price.

GS

[GoSeigen]

HD failure doesn't make the entire iMac useless, just requires use of an external drive.... which is annoying but not a huge sacrifice on a non-portable machine. But as I said, is it even true???

Thx.

GS

Most new Macs are specced up with SSDs there are still some options for a fusion drive on some models.

Secure boot will by default not allow the machine to start from an external disk
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208330
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208198#externalboot

So unless you manage to predict when the SSD drive will fail and turn off all the relevant security settings the mac could end up bricked.

No, it won't be bricked. You have at least two options:
1. Boot from a backup on an external drive and go from there.
2. Change the External Boot settings to allow booting from an external drive, then connect the drive and boot.

GS

[Infrasonic]

The issue with soldered components like RAM, memory (whether that is SSD or HDD) et al is it makes upgrading or replacement in case of failure by the user practically impossible unless you have access to professional equipment.
I've replaced HDD's and SSD's in desktops PC's, and upgraded RAM in laptops and desktops over the years and it's been a simple and quick procedure, requiring a couple of screwdrivers at most.

In Apples case they have a history of using non standard components as well as making user repair access incredibly difficult. I recently looked into replacing/fixing the CPU fan on an i5 iMac with thermal throttling issues for a friend. It's a fifty plus stage procedure to get to it, utterly ridiculous.(One might almost conclude it is a deliberate design philosophy...).

TBF to Apple other OEM's have followed this pattern of soldering and difficult access (hot glue etc.), especially as the drive towards thin and light (i.e 2 in 1 laptops) has meant physical low profiles and manufacturing costs need to be minimised, automated soldering being cheaper than manual socket assembly for instance.

I'm typing this from a passively cooled 14" Chromebook with all soldered components, however it was £169, not £1,690. If I'm paying that sort of money I expect user accessibility/upgradeability and wouldn't purchase anything that doesn't meet that requirement.

[GoSeigen]

So unless you manage to predict when the SSD drive will fail and turn off all the relevant security settings the mac could end up bricked.

No, it won't be bricked. You have at least two options:
1. Boot from a backup on an external drive and go from there.
2. Change the External Boot settings to allow booting from an external drive, then connect the drive and boot.

GS

Apologies to Lanark: the above two options are only possible if the internally installed OS is operable. So the machine could indeed end up bricked.

Easy solution: don't use this setting unless happy with a bricked machine! And yes, I realise most users won't have the nous to move from the default...


GS

[servodude]

Hi GS

Apologies if I was a bit jargonesque earlier it's hard sometimes to know where to pitch a post wrt terms.

What Apple have done in recent years is take advantage of some technological advancements to minimise size but to the detriment of the consumer and the planet.
What they use in the iMAC now for the main drive is essentially an SD card (in electrical interface) soldered directly to the board
- this will fail after a few hundred of thousands of writes
- this is expected behaviour and it's the same as you would expect for a normal SSD on an internal interface
- it is the bit of the computer that WILL wear out first - there's nothing else in the design that wears in the same way

Newish computers would likely have their SSD on an m2 sata board which is about 1x2inches and not very thick and replaceable for not very much cash (and will very likely be cheaper in the future)

Apple, if they didn't want their customers to have to replace a whole load non broken bits, could have replaced that soldered connection with a slot for any other type of drive; even an SD card micro slot would have been an improvement ( I run most of my stuff from one of these on my Surface Book).

The cost to design to fit an m2 or mSATA drive might have been a 5mm by 1 X 2 inch void/space; and even on the new iMAC they're not THAT tight. They could even have got away with a uSD slot!

Which is why some think they've done this for other reasons and that it's horribly wasteful.

-sd

[john10001]

Out of interest, what can an Apple desktop computer do that my second hand £140 HP desktop can't do?

Run Logic, Ableton, Reason with lots of plugins.

[john10001]

Without you specifying what you want to use it for, this is an impossible question to answer.

For a ranging shot, I LURVE my MacBook 12" for it's spectacular thin-ness, lightness and portability. I dunno the spec but it does everything I need with aplomb and cost only £1260-ish. (Website design, form and document design, email, browsing the net, posting rubbish on here...)

I would be using it mostly for Logic, Reason and Ableton with a lot of plugins which benefit mostly from raw CPU power and single core performance.

[john10001]

For me it would be the iMac just because you can replace the rubbish Apple keyboards with something better.

Also desktop machines tend to last at least a couple of years longer than a laptop.

The latest iMacs now have the hard drive soldered to the motherboard so they are non-replaceable. I'm assuming this is their response to the right to repair movement "we'll just make them so that NOBODY can repair them."

I just wish Apple would sell the same hardware they had 10 years ago - even with the same old processors, larger cases etc, the basic build quality was all streets ahead of what they offer now.

I think Apple have improved the keyboards with their latest models moving away from the problematic butterfly keyboard to the magic keyboard with more robust scissor type keys.

I have a Dell desktop at work and a laptop which I've been using while working from home. The desktop keyboards changed in the last few years to modern ones that are very similar to the keyboards on the laptops. I find them difficult to use. The keys are thin, plasticky without much travel and you have to use the function key to access the screen print button which is annoying.

I have a seperate wireless Logitech keyboard and mouse at home that I use instead I just plug in the small USB dongle to the laptop. I even take it into work with me because I just can't use those modern Dell keyboards the old fashioned ones with more key travel were better for typing on. The only negative on Logitech is the lettering rubs off on the keys.

I imagine if you need to use an Apple product for only typing and you work in media or publishing, you'd eventually get used to it if its the only thing you use and if writing is the only thing you do the Macbook Air would probably be what most folks use as it is slightly tilted which favours writing?

I agree on laptop keyboards in general though and the new modern desktop ones they are not as good as the old style ones for tying if that is what you mostly do you will probably get a better keyboard.

I won't need it for much typing though. Just using Logic, Reason and Ableton and a bunch of plugins. You can still upgrade the memory at a later stage on the iMacs if you wish to.

[GeoffF100]

I am using a cheap HP keyboard from Argos:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8241407

It has a decent travel on the keys and the lettering does not appear to be wearing off. I am also using a cheap Asda Onn mouse, and that is good too:

https://groceries.asda.com/product/comp ... 0033144335

My Logitech Z200 speakers cost a little more:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00FSF2OSS/ ... nkCode=df0

Speaker placing is very critical, by the way.

[Howard]

Out of interest, what can an Apple desktop computer do that my second hand £140 HP desktop can't do?

Run Logic, Ableton, Reason with lots of plugins.

Yes, I take your point!

(Looking at google, my i5 processor which runs at 3.3 GHz would happily run Ableton and Reason and apparently on Intel-based i5 and i7 computers, one can install Mac OS which would allow you to run Logic.)

However I can't argue with your choice, you have persuaded me that you have an expensive music hobby!

Enjoy your Mac!

regards

Howard