HiFi buffs? A small but good HiFi system?

[stevensfo]

Steve - do let us know how you get on with whatever you choose and where you end up with streaming. It will be interesting to hear where you end up given your starting point in one of your posts on page 1 - "I'm not interested in streaming, Bluetooth etc and certainly not into telling Alexa what to play! Knowing my luck, she'd probably argue with me! ". That's not a criticism by the way, I started from a point of what possibly could be classified as distain for streaming but over a few years have become an avid fan.

- Julian

P.S. If you want to see what can go wrong with Alexa this is worth watching all 2 minutes until the punch line at the end. Warning for those that are offended by such things, there's a lot of swearing in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcjsE-qJDfw

Hi Julian,

Well, I can answer most of your question immediately, as all the comments about streaming convinced me to try Spotify, and I'm impressed! So the app stays.

Being a fan of Orwell's books, I have a deeply ingrained fear of things like Alexa and besides, I'm perfectly capable of using the app. I was playing with it till after midnight last night. The app, I mean! Given the choice on Spotify, I'm not sure how a voice command would work anyway - though Alexa is Amazon, isn't it? No, I'll stick with the app and avoid microphones. If Kim Jong Un, the CIA or MI5 want my recipe for Boeuf Provencal, they'll have to buy the book. I'm not having anyone listen in!

As for speakers etc, that's slightly on hold since due to lockdown, teleworking etc, there have been a few changes in who reclaims which territory in our house. Still, it won't stop me from messing about with a few old bluetooth speakers. Then, I will come back to all the advice given and start to update our very old technology throughout the house. So far, the Technics Ottava C70 Mk2 is on the list due to the built in CD player, and I like the reviews and looks of the Denon speakers. But who knows?

Meanwhile, I'm getting plenty of advice from the experts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pujXTj4X_I4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvswW6M7bMo

Steve

[tikunetih]

as all the comments about streaming convinced me to try Spotify, and I'm impressed! So the app stays.

IMO the best thing about streaming services - and Spotify particularly shines with its features here - is in discovering new music that you'd otherwise have never stumbled upon.

I've been subscribed to a streaming service for nearly 8 years, first Google Play Music (GPM) and subsequently Spotify. Prior to this I had (have) about 1000 CDs, covering many different niches, with each niche represented by a few different groups/performers (plus tons of cruft that I'd wasted money on...).

Thanks to the discovery features of GPM (R.I.P.) and Spotify I now know there are gazillions of fantastic songs in each of these niches, rather than the modest number I previously knew about, and loads more niches I never knew anything about.

I know artists are always complaining about the cr@ppy deal they get from the streamers, and perhaps they are, BUT at the same time my experience is that there's an absolute glut of fantastic music available in the world today - veritable mountains of truly excellent stuff that just keeps on piling up now that music creation and distribution has been so thoroughly democratised. So I'm not surprised that the vast, vast majority of artists earn hardly anything in royalty fees. They should probably be paying us for the privilege of us lending our ears to their hobby output.

Prior to subscribing to a streaming service I'd discovered hardly any of these excellent tracks. Now, for each great track I knew of previously I've found maybe another 10, 20, etc. Massive expansion of my "library" of music that I really like and can call upon, and continually finding great new stuff every week.

[servodude]

IMO the best thing about streaming services - and Spotify particularly shines with its features here - is in discovering new music that you'd otherwise have never stumbled upon.

Absolutely agree! The algorithm it uses to suggest stuff is incredible
- new stuff, stuff I have forgotten I knew; it really does an amazing job

I know artists are always complaining about the cr@ppy deal they get from the streamers, and perhaps they are

Most are certainly are getting a getting a cr@p deal
and we (sort of) are as users also...

I'd prefer it if my subscription went to the artists (or copyright holders) of the music I listened to
- but instead it's run as a global pool; royalties paid to rights owners based on "listens" across the system as a whole

I'd much rather not be encouraging Cardi B to keep doing whatever it is she does but she'll be getting a much bigger proportion of what I pay them than any of the artists I listen to
- so I actively source music I like as "directly" as I can and consider myself an "additional user" of spotify (because the kids are using it)

-sd

[fisher]

I'd like to make a few points about sound quality. For simplicity I'll limit this to digital music (i.e. CDs, FLAC, mp3) and exclude Vinyl.

Converting a CD to FLAC or some other lossless format is "lossless"! The digital copy is identical, other than being compressed, and when it is uncompressed to be played back it is identical to what came from the CD in the first place. The only possible variance in sound quality is the DAC (Digital to Analogue Convertor) that you use to play a CD versus the DAC you use to playback the FLAC. Nowadays most modern DACs are extremely high quality - even the cheap ones. It is not possible for the CD or the FLAC to show any difference in dynamic range to each other - they are identical.

Converting a CD to mp3 or some other lossy format will lose some information. Higher bit rates that are more common today (e.g. 320 kbps mp3) lose little data and will be virtually indistinguishable from the original. However, there may be slight differences as touched on earlier in the thread. Dynamic range is not compromised by lossy conversion.

So CD, FLAC and high bitrate mp3 or similar will likely sound identical.

For me the bigger issue is which version of the CD (or its digital copy) are you listening to. There are big differences in the way CDs are mastered. A lot of early 1980s pressings of CDs were pressed from Analogue Masterings (AAD printed on the CD), and these masterings may have been originally done for vinyl and just ported to CD. As time passed more Digital Masterings became common (ADD), and Digital Recordings which were then digitally mastered (DDD). A lot of the masterings were done sympathetically to the original recordings and were fine. A lot of them weren't and actually created a poorer product in a modern wrapper. Marketing encouraged us to replace our old ADD recordings with remastered versions with little regard to whether the remastering improved upon the original.

Record companies realised that be remastering an AAD CD they could make more money selling the same music to fans again, as they binned their old 1980s AAD CDs for remastered ones. Then around 1995 (starting with an OASIS CD I believe) it became much more fashionable to make CDs sound loud. They started to become mastered with the volume normalised at the highest level the CD would take. To stretch this further, Digital Mastering techniques were used to squash the dynamic range down (compressed) thereby allowing them to raise the volume of even the quieter sections of music. Added to this, the growing trend in iPods and listening to music through headphones on trains, or listening in the car meant that having compressed dynamic range that could be heard consistently over the engine noise was actually desireable in a lot of cases.

I found myself enjoying listening to music less and less in the early 2000s and I eventually worked out that it was because of the poor modern masterings of my remastered CDs. Since then I have spent over a decade sourcing more and more early CD masterings (typically 1980s and early 1990s pressings) and I now enjoy my music a lot more with increased dynamic range and less listening fatigue (which can come on due to compressed dynamics). Of course, not all modern masterings are bad. Some are excellent, but the majority of the standard modern masterings fit the modern compressed stereotype I'm afraid.

I have a massive personal digital music collection and it is not uncommon for me to have a number of masterings of any given CD. I would hate to lose the control of which mastering I was listening to when I listen. I store all my music on a NAS and stream it around my house using the old Logitech Squeezebox system. I have fixed and portable players hooked up to this.

I presume that using spotify (or other streaming services) that you cannot choose the mastering you listen to. Is this the case? For example, do you just request to listen to David Bowie's Heroes album or can you request a 1980s mastering which is a much better listening experience in my opinion?

I can see the attraction of the streaming services with their convenience, low maintenance and the massive selection available, but I presume you are listening in the main to modern masterings which I would argue are largely inferior to what you can source personally if you want to. This applies to "older" recordings; anything recorded in the last decade will probably only have one digital mastering available and that may well be compressed in which case there is little you can do.

[dspp]

If we weren't in such a messed up world at the moment my ultimate recommendation to Steve would be to get a shortlist of stuff and go into a few shops to listen to it
- Julian

Even that may not be successful. Many years ago, I had a pair of KEFs that I thought were great. One of my mates was interested in them so I took them round to his house, along with a few of my LPs. They were rubbish, when playing music I played at home, even though his room was not disimilar to mine in size and furnishings. Little bass and a generally 'lifeless' sound. Repositioning the speakers in the room didn't help.

--kiloran

kiloran,
Why do you think this occurred ?
regards,
dspp

[kiloran]

If we weren't in such a messed up world at the moment my ultimate recommendation to Steve would be to get a shortlist of stuff and go into a few shops to listen to it
- Julian

Even that may not be successful. Many years ago, I had a pair of KEFs that I thought were great. One of my mates was interested in them so I took them round to his house, along with a few of my LPs. They were rubbish, when playing music I played at home, even though his room was not disimilar to mine in size and furnishings. Little bass and a generally 'lifeless' sound. Repositioning the speakers in the room didn't help.

--kiloran

kiloran,
Why do you think this occurred ?
regards,
dspp

Haven't got a scooby! I can only think it was related to the room dimensions/furnishings, or maybe my mate's amplifier. I remember that his amplifier was a somewhat unknown brand. Mine was a homebuilt class A job from a design in Wireless World (ah, those were the days!)

--kiloran

[Gerry557]

Well this has kicked a bit of a hornets nest of opinions but as long as @stevensfo is happy with the options provided it might have achieved its objective.

I've taken a look at the Ottava. Interesting device built for convince and size although maybe not for the pure hi fi buffs.

Saying that I have an audio Pro T5 thing in a 6m x 6m room with lots of glass, hard floors and it performs much better than I expected it too. No it's not hi fi but it's reasonable background sound. I wouldn't pick that type of room for hi fi generally. If you want to move air you need bigger or multiple woofers, so that would be my preference.

I wonder how well the dsp in the Ottava copes? Hopefully it will be a step or few ahead of the audio Pro but so is the price. Might be worth a listen if the shops ever reopen.

Come back and tell us of the final result and impressions

[Lanark]

I presume that using spotify (or other streaming services) that you cannot choose the mastering you listen to. Is this the case? For example, do you just request to listen to David Bowie's Heroes album or can you request a 1980s mastering which is a much better listening experience in my opinion?

The mastering on streaming services is often customized to cater for the low bandwidth of streaming (128K) that means boosted bass and high end rather like the old loudness button you would get on cheap boom boxes of the 1980s.

[PhaseThree]

Well this has kicked a bit of a hornets nest of opinions but as long as @stevensfo is happy with the options provided it might have achieved its objective.

I've taken a look at the Ottava. Interesting device built for convince and size although maybe not for the pure hi fi buffs.

Saying that I have an audio Pro T5 thing in a 6m x 6m room with lots of glass, hard floors and it performs much better than I expected it too. No it's not hi fi but it's reasonable background sound. I wouldn't pick that type of room for hi fi generally. If you want to move air you need bigger or multiple woofers, so that would be my preference.

I wonder how well the dsp in the Ottava copes? Hopefully it will be a step or few ahead of the audio Pro but so is the price. Might be worth a listen if the shops ever reopen.

Come back and tell us of the final result and impressions

Maybe I should clarify the recommendation I made for the Ottava on page one of this thread (I did tell you I was a recovering HiFi Nut)
- My main system is Chord Electronics/Peak Consult Speakers.
- My second system is Naim/Quad Electrostatics
- All music is streamed either from a Squeezebox Server (Flac) or Spotify Premium (and has been for the last 17 years. Both sound good.

If I was looking for a system with the criteria specified by Steve i the original post (HiFi, Compact, CD and USB capable, less than £1K). I would give the Ottava a very close listen, it is very good in my opinion.

If I was looking to put together a good, cheap HiFi system without these criteria I would recommend my "lockdown system" (recovery is not easy and I had a relapse),
- Raspberry Pi Zero-W/JustBoom Dac running PiCorePlayer + Case (£29)
- SENUCN-AUDIO A502 Class-D Amplifier 2 Channel 50W (£39)
- Q-Acoustics 3020 Bookshelf speaker (£139)-
Total (£207)

Spend the remaining £793 on a Spotify Premium subscription and enjoy the music

[tikunetih]

I presume that using spotify (or other streaming services) that you cannot choose the mastering you listen to. Is this the case? For example, do you just request to listen to David Bowie's Heroes album or can you request a 1980s mastering which is a much better listening experience in my opinion?

You can listen to whatever they happen to have in their library, which may contain multiple versions of the same album, or may not.

For example, yesterday I wanted to listen to The Stooges eponymous debut album, and a search steered me by default to the 2019 remastered version, but a further bit of searching delivered me the original 1969 version.

For Bowie's "Heroes", I can see a 2017 remaster and a 1999 remaster, but not the 1977 original mastering.

So "it depends" might be answer to your question above.

When I've seen these situations previously, my impression is that Spotify tends to steer users towards later remasters over earlier (a sort-by-date-descending type approach), while earlier (and/or original) may also be available, but it's case-by-case...

This means that for you with your somewhat niche connoisseur/aesthete requirements, it may not be the most suitable service, as even if a specific (preferred) mastering was available (which is a big if) you may have to work a little harder to alight upon it, negating some of the convenience factor.

[tikunetih]

The mastering on streaming services is often customized to cater for the low bandwidth of streaming (128K) that means boosted bass and high end rather like the old loudness button you would get on cheap boom boxes of the 1980s.

With Spotify (paid), the punter gets to decide the encoding quality of the stream they listen to, except for casting to smart speakers where in Sonos case at least (and quite possibly others too) they use 320 kbps Ogg/Vorbis as mentioned earlier.

Further, any Loudness Normalization is also controlled by the punter "in app", except for where Spotify is running on 3rd party devices (such as Sonos speaker, for example) where no Loudness Normalization occurs.

[servodude]

SENUCN-AUDIO A502 Class-D Amplifier 2 Channel 50W (£39)

Aren't these things just the bogs dollocks!

Rail-rail power amps were standard for lots of applications when I started out in control and at the time I remember thinking that if you could get the switching frequency up (they were typically 80k or so) you'd get a "decent" efficient audio amp
- but I couldn't believe just how good the TA2020 chips sounded when they came out (switching up around the 50MHz region)

- sd

[servodude]

The mastering on streaming services is often customized to cater for the low bandwidth of streaming (128K) that means boosted bass and high end rather like the old loudness button you would get on cheap boom boxes of the 1980s.

With Spotify (paid), the punter gets to decide the encoding quality of the stream they listen to, except for casting to smart speakers where in Sonos case at least (and quite possibly others too) they use 320 kbps Ogg/Vorbis as mentioned earlier.

Further, any Loudness Normalization is also controlled by the punter "in app", except for where Spotify is running on 3rd party devices (such as Sonos speaker, for example) where no Loudness Normalization occurs.

...and depending on the licensing sometimes "both" versions of an album (orig & remastered) are available; not for Heroes it would seem though

- sd

[tikunetih]

...and depending on the licensing sometimes "both" versions of an album (orig & remastered) are available; not for Heroes it would seem though

Yup: viewtopic.php?p=353919#p353919

[servodude]

...and depending on the licensing sometimes "both" versions of an album (orig & remastered) are available; not for Heroes it would seem though

Yup: viewtopic.php?p=353919#p353919

what a polite THWACK
thanks
-sd

[Lanark]

Earlier this year I tried out the TIDAL system which claims to have an even higher bitrate than Spotify premium, however when I tested it using a stream ripper, the rate was actually nowhere near what is claimed.

Now maybe their network was just busy that day, maybe my ISP was sneakily compressing the signal. But whatever the reasons I don't really care to have my music experience sneakily downgraded for reasons that are outwith my control.

[fisher]

I presume that using spotify (or other streaming services) that you cannot choose the mastering you listen to. Is this the case? For example, do you just request to listen to David Bowie's Heroes album or can you request a 1980s mastering which is a much better listening experience in my opinion?

You can listen to whatever they happen to have in their library, which may contain multiple versions of the same album, or may not.

For example, yesterday I wanted to listen to The Stooges eponymous debut album, and a search steered me by default to the 2019 remastered version, but a further bit of searching delivered me the original 1969 version.

For Bowie's "Heroes", I can see a 2017 remaster and a 1999 remaster, but not the 1977 original mastering.

So "it depends" might be answer to your question above.

When I've seen these situations previously, my impression is that Spotify tends to steer users towards later remasters over earlier (a sort-by-date-descending type approach), while earlier (and/or original) may also be available, but it's case-by-case...

This means that for you with your somewhat niche connoisseur/aesthete requirements, it may not be the most suitable service, as even if a specific (preferred) mastering was available (which is a big if) you may have to work a little harder to alight upon it, negating some of the convenience factor.

Thanks for this. I presume they originally had 1 mastering of everything (hence the 1999 one) and then have added new ones as they come out (the 2017 one). They're unlikely to add out of print old masterings.

For this particular album I'd want to listen to one of the two 1984 masterings (there are two of them but they are rare and expensive to buy) or the 1991 mastering (very easily found 2nd hand). The 1999 masterings are generally awful IMHO and the 2017 is a bit overblown but better than the 1999.

On-line streaming is obviously not for me, but I can understand the convenience and it probably has most of the masterings you can buy easily without going into the 2nd hand market and researching the different masterings available which most people just aren't going to be interested in doing. As people take up streaming and sell all their CDs though it makes the 2nd hand ones much cheaper for me to pick up!

[Itsallaguess]

Some people read threads as though they're one big continuous thread of conversation

Others are less prone to do this

I'd just like to come back to this thread and in relation to the above I'd like to show my own appreciation for the very interesting diversions into the Spotify arena that various contributors have taken, because having never been a Spotify user until today, but having remembered that a recently-bought DENON receiver came with an in-built HEOS network functionality, and also having read recently that a recent firmware update for it would now allow access to HEOS 'Spotify Connect' (and hence 320Kbps streaming..) via a FREE Spotify account (it was only previously available via HEOS with the Premium Spotify accounts..), then I've just spent a couple of happy hours setting all that up on my DENON system, and I've got to say that whilst I was content previously with just using the great Bluetooth capability of the DENON receiver to play music from my various portable devices, the ease of use of the 'Spotify Connect' stream via the Denon's HEOS functionality is absolutely superb, and with no lossy Bluetooth getting in the way between the network and the speakers...

So my internet music streaming is now sorted via Spotify Connect (via HEOS), and I can use the HEOS app itself to play any of my local-network music stored on my NAS, and if push comes to shove and I need to get anything else onto my speakers, then Bluetooth is now my 'Plan C' rather than my 'Plan A', and I've now got two 'digital-only' pathways well ahead of that Bluetooth option that will deliver better sound quality than my previous method...

So I do hope the OP doesn't mind the slight tangential discussions that these types of threads often taken, and I just wanted to come and show my appreciation to those that have gone into details about the Spotify app and it's benefits, because I wouldn't have got my current DENON set-up working so well if those interesting conversations hadn't recently taken place..

Very grateful thanks all round...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
Moved to Computers etc, as better suited to discussion. (There's a related topic here at https://lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26019) (chas49)

[stevensfo]

Some people read threads as though they're one big continuous thread of conversation

Others are less prone to do this

I'd just like to come back to this thread and in relation to the above I'd like to show my own appreciation for the very interesting diversions into the Spotify arena that various contributors have taken, because having never been a Spotify user until today, but having remembered that a recently-bought DENON receiver came with an in-built HEOS network functionality, and also having read recently that a recent firmware update for it would now allow access to HEOS 'Spotify Connect' (and hence 320Kbps streaming..) via a FREE Spotify account (it was only previously available via HEOS with the Premium Spotify accounts..), then I've just spent a couple of happy hours setting all that up on my DENON system, and I've got to say that whilst I was content previously with just using the great Bluetooth capability of the DENON receiver to play music from my various portable devices, the ease of use of the 'Spotify Connect' stream via the Denon's HEOS functionality is absolutely superb, and with no lossy Bluetooth getting in the way between the network and the speakers...

So my internet music streaming is now sorted via Spotify Connect (via HEOS), and I can use the HEOS app itself to play any of my local-network music stored on my NAS, and if push comes to shove and I need to get anything else onto my speakers, then Bluetooth is now my 'Plan C' rather than my 'Plan A', and I've now got two 'digital-only' pathways well ahead of that Bluetooth option that will deliver better sound quality than my previous method...

So I do hope the OP doesn't mind the slight tangential discussions that these types of threads often taken, and I just wanted to come and show my appreciation to those that have gone into details about the Spotify app and it's benefits, because I wouldn't have got my current DENON set-up working so well if those interesting conversations hadn't recently taken place..

Very grateful thanks all round...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Well, as the OP, I'm as happy as you are that the post went off at a slight tangent and have spent the last three evenings exploring what I get free from Spotify. So last night, after almost falling off my chair at discovering music I hadn't heard for 40 years, I did a search for 'Clarinet Jazz' and an hour of reading with that in the background was almost enough to make me blow the dust off my clarinets and start practising again, though at 1 am, my wife might have had other ideas!

Due to our home tech being either hopelessly out of date or rendered unusable/sticky/hidden by over 20 years of kids in the place, I settled on a 50 quid 20W Anker speaker with bluetooth bought to use in the garden but as yet untouched. Although my ears are most likely not up the standard of most HiFi Buffs, I was amazed at the sound and have to wonder why I should pay for a Spotify subscription when the free version sounds so good. Having said that, the few classical pieces I listened to briefly didn't impress me as much.

I'm still leaning towards the Technics Ottava, simply because we have so many CDs and it links with both WiFi and Bluetooth, but will probably pair it with a Technics C30 or C50 speaker for the kitchen. From all the reviews I've read, there's not a lot to choose between Technics, Bose, Denon and Sonos for sound quality.

The only annoyance I have is seeing my phone fill up with apps and the battery going down faster than usual. So maybe a cheap smartphone to use just for stuff at home?

Enjoy the music!

Steve