'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

[Infrasonic]

you won't get any assistance from the manufacturer and will be relying on some random person on the local 'we can fix it' stall in the market fitting some 'it looks a bit like the original' parts with fingers crossed it might work afterwards

I'm on the fence here

There's some bona fide genuine repair bods who do great work servicing/repairing equipment who are looking at their business vanishing due to the serialisation of components
- there's a balance that needs struck

Consumers shouldn't be beholden to manufacturers once they've bought the product

-sd

You're in oz aren't you SD? Looks like you are in luck...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aust ... SKBN1JF0AS

An Australian court fined U.S. electronics giant Apple Inc A$9 million ($6.7 million) on Tuesday after a regulator accused it of using a software update to disable iPhones which had cracked screens fixed by third parties.

The Australian Competitor and Consumer Commission (ACCC) sued the world’s biggest company by market value for “bricking” - or using a software update to disable - hundreds of smartphones and tablet devices, then refusing to unlock them if the devices had been serviced by non-Apple repairers.

Cont.

[Mike4]

I imagine the politicians announcing this will be pretty sharply appraised of the impossibility of actually drafting and implementing their sloppily described proposals, if they don't realise already.

On the other hand the media seems to be loving it and gleefully using it as a stick to beat manufacturers for trying to make a profit for their shareholders, often pension funds. It will be interesting to observe how quickly it runs into the quicksand and in what way, before sinking without trace.

Or does anyone here genuinely think it can be made to work, without tripling the cost of all consumer goods to support the increased stockholdings? And let's not overlook the mahoosive admin task of documenting, tracking and pricing all the extended parts lists now to be held in stock.

New on/off switch for my nine year old Chinese desk fan that originally cost me a tenner, anyone? Not gonna happen is it?

[Infrasonic]

I imagine the politicians announcing this will be pretty sharply appraised of the impossibility of actually drafting and implementing their sloppily described proposals, if they don't realise already.

After the financial crash Basel 111 legislation was drafted...https://www.bis.org/bcbs/basel3.htm#:~: ... of%20banks.
Is it perfect? No. Will it ever be perfect? No. Does that mean we shouldn't bother? No...

On the other hand the media seems to be loving it and gleefully using it as a stick to beat manufacturers for trying to make a profit for their shareholders, often pension funds. It will be interesting to observe how quickly it runs into the quicksand and in what way, before sinking without trace.

If Apple are so concerned about their shareholders they could always return the hundreds of billions in offshored capital to them - (that they also refuse to repatriate to the US- taking out loans to fund share buybacks for 'tax efficiency' reasons...).

Or does anyone here genuinely think it can be made to work, without tripling the cost of all consumer goods to support the increased stockholdings? And let's not overlook the mahoosive admin task of documenting, tracking and pricing all the extended parts lists now to be held in stock.

I think the chances of iPhones tripling in price because of this legislation is somewhere close to zero - maybe a bit less hyperbole would give your argument some credibility.

New on/off switch for my nine year old Chinese desk fan that originally cost me a tenner, anyone? Not gonna happen is it?

Does your fan have firmware that stops it working if it is repaired by a third party? No...

Maybe spend five minutes fixing it yourself then with generic commodity electronics parts readily available everywhere. Literally hundreds of Youtube channels and websites showing you how to do this and other DIY fixes. For more esoteric and expensive stuff take it to a third party repairer who can source the same parts and offer an economically viable solution. Bearing in mind your profession Mike I seriously doubt fixing a fan is beyond your skillset...

[XFool]

I imagine the politicians announcing this will be pretty sharply appraised of the impossibility of actually drafting and implementing their sloppily described proposals, if they don't realise already.

On the other hand the media seems to be loving it and gleefully using it as a stick to beat manufacturers for trying to make a profit for their shareholders, often pension funds. It will be interesting to observe how quickly it runs into the quicksand and in what way, before sinking without trace.

Or does anyone here genuinely think it can be made to work, without tripling the cost of all consumer goods to support the increased stockholdings? And let's not overlook the mahoosive admin task of documenting, tracking and pricing all the extended parts lists now to be held in stock.

New on/off switch for my nine year old Chinese desk fan that originally cost me a tenner, anyone? Not gonna happen is it?

OK. What about ~1 year old from new BT branded landline phone (no idea what it cost, wasn't mine) needed fixing, not holding charge. I offered.

Solution: Chuck in bin and use old one - No apparent provision for fitting a replacement battery.

[Infrasonic]

OK. What about ~1 year old from new BT branded landline phone (no idea what it cost, wasn't mine) needed fixing, not holding charge. I offered.

Solution: Chuck in bin and use old one - No apparent provision for fitting a replacement battery.

I've fixed those BT cordless phones in the past, again it was an under five minute job. I think I even sourced the replacement battery from a BT website (it was a long time ago) but BT were of no help at all when it came to offering any solution by them. They carried that over into their ISP customer service too both on the phone and in person with chocolate teapot 'engineers' (glorified wiremen...) - so I got rid of them six years ago and would never use BT again on principle.

[XFool]

OK. What about ~1 year old from new BT branded landline phone (no idea what it cost, wasn't mine) needed fixing, not holding charge. I offered.

Solution: Chuck in bin and use old one - No apparent provision for fitting a replacement battery.

I've fixed those BT cordless phones in the past, again it was an under five minute job. I think I even sourced the replacement battery from a BT website (it was a long time ago) but BT were of no help at all when it came to offering any solution by them.

Which "BT cordless phones" have you "fixed" in the past? I myself have an outdated BT cordless phone (crap firmware IMO). It has an easily removable battery cover and standard replaceable AAA rechargeable batteries.

The model I referred to was newer. Enough said...

[Infrasonic]

OK. What about ~1 year old from new BT branded landline phone (no idea what it cost, wasn't mine) needed fixing, not holding charge. I offered.

Solution: Chuck in bin and use old one - No apparent provision for fitting a replacement battery.

I've fixed those BT cordless phones in the past, again it was an under five minute job. I think I even sourced the replacement battery from a BT website (it was a long time ago) but BT were of no help at all when it came to offering any solution by them.

Which "BT cordless phones" have you "fixed" in the past? I myself have an outdated BT cordless phone (crap firmware IMO). It has an easily removable battery cover and standard replaceable AAA rechargeable batteries.

The model I referred to was newer. Enough said...

No this was an undo two standard Philips screws on the handset case (analogue not DECT), open up the whole case and swap out the three cell rechargeable pack. Reverse, put the two screws back in. Done. I'd guestimate at about a minute tops.
It was a struggle but I got there in the end - had a lie down afterwards...

The model I referred to was newer. Enough said...

Yes, quite. If one was being cynical one almost might conclude it's a deliberate BT policy - surely not?...

I've not had landline for six years, I'm a two mobile phone/networks person these days. The secondary mobile is a recent Nokia 105 (£20 unlocked) which has a flip off rear plastic case (a fingernail will suffice) and a removable battery underneath. What a bunch of antiquated weirdos Nokia are.

[XFool]

I've fixed those BT cordless phones in the past, again it was an under five minute job. I think I even sourced the replacement battery from a BT website (it was a long time ago) but BT were of no help at all when it came to offering any solution by them.

Which "BT cordless phones" have you "fixed" in the past? I myself have an outdated BT cordless phone (crap firmware IMO). It has an easily removable battery cover and standard replaceable AAA rechargeable batteries.

The model I referred to was newer. Enough said...

No this was an undo two standard Philips screws on the handset case (analogue not DECT), open up the whole case and swap out the three cell rechargeable pack. Reverse, put the two screws back in. Done. I'd guestimate at about a minute tops.
It was a struggle but I got there in the end - had a lie down afterwards...

Oh, I used to have one of THOSE! Was regularly taking it apart as it had a peculiar design(?) or materials fault: the black conductive plastic layer for the keyboard kept mysteriously accumulating dampness over time, causing key jitter and repeating digits until it became unusable. Disassemble, clean, wipe dry, reassemble - wash, rinse, repeat. At least until I got fed up with it, or the battery failed again.

BT Freestyle?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-Freestyle-70-white-cordless-phone-base-and-power-cord/303909695360?hash=item46c26def80:g:i9cAAOSw8UNgKAcg

(Also available in black!)

[servodude]

you won't get any assistance from the manufacturer and will be relying on some random person on the local 'we can fix it' stall in the market fitting some 'it looks a bit like the original' parts with fingers crossed it might work afterwards

I'm on the fence here

There's some bona fide genuine repair bods who do great work servicing/repairing equipment who are looking at their business vanishing due to the serialisation of components
- there's a balance that needs struck

Consumers shouldn't be beholden to manufacturers once they've bought the product

-sd

You're in oz aren't you SD? Looks like you are in luck...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aust ... SKBN1JF0AS

An Australian court fined U.S. electronics giant Apple Inc A$9 million ($6.7 million) on Tuesday after a regulator accused it of using a software update to disable iPhones which had cracked screens fixed by third parties.

The Australian Competitor and Consumer Commission (ACCC) sued the world’s biggest company by market value for “bricking” - or using a software update to disable - hundreds of smartphones and tablet devices, then refusing to unlock them if the devices had been serviced by non-Apple repairers.

Cont.

Seems like the right thing to do

I must admit that I can't see what Apple get from this type of thing; the risk to brand seems to outweigh any returns from servicing - but I suppose the plan normally doesn't involve getting caught

- sd

[servodude]

the black conductive plastic layer for the keyboard kept mysteriously accumulating dampness over time, causing key jitter and repeating digits until it became unusable.

Ah the carbon pill
- I hear they're great for controlling flatulence
- but they are terrible as an input - more so if they forgot to mask the contacts and they were flowed (which I've seen more than once on cheap remotes)

- sd

[AF62]

I'm on the fence here

There's some bona fide genuine repair bods who do great work servicing/repairing equipment who are looking at their business vanishing due to the serialisation of components
- there's a balance that needs struck

Consumers shouldn't be beholden to manufacturers once they've bought the product

-sd

You're in oz aren't you SD? Looks like you are in luck...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aust ... SKBN1JF0AS

An Australian court fined U.S. electronics giant Apple Inc A$9 million ($6.7 million) on Tuesday after a regulator accused it of using a software update to disable iPhones which had cracked screens fixed by third parties.

The Australian Competitor and Consumer Commission (ACCC) sued the world’s biggest company by market value for “bricking” - or using a software update to disable - hundreds of smartphones and tablet devices, then refusing to unlock them if the devices had been serviced by non-Apple repairers.

Cont.

Seems like the right thing to do

I must admit that I can't see what Apple get from this type of thing; the risk to brand seems to outweigh any returns from servicing - but I suppose the plan normally doesn't involve getting caught

- sd

In this case Apple’s approach was to protect their image on security and customers from themselves.

“Error 53” occurred where the phone detected the fingerprint sensor had been tampered with, which usually happened when the screen had been replaced. A compromised fingerprint sensor could allow access to the contents of the phone, any secure banking apps on the phone, and the phone to make contactless payments (you can pay up to £10,000 by contactless payment on an iPhone).

After the complaints, Apple issued a software update so if the fingerprint sensor was tampered with it didn’t shut the phone down, but disabled the sensor so you could no longer use it to unlock the phone, authorise apps, or use the phone to make contactless payments.

[jfgw]

A compromised fingerprint sensor could allow access to the contents of the phone, any secure banking apps on the phone, and the phone to make contactless payments (you can pay up to £10,000 by contactless payment on an iPhone).

Is that really true? Is the fingerprint sensor also the verification device? It could provide a possible entry point for a hacker if it is. I would expect the fingerprint sensor to be a dumb device that sends data to the main MCU (or whatever phones have) for verification.


Julian F. G. W.

[servodude]

A compromised fingerprint sensor could allow access to the contents of the phone, any secure banking apps on the phone, and the phone to make contactless payments (you can pay up to £10,000 by contactless payment on an iPhone).

Is that really true? Is the fingerprint sensor also the verification device? It could provide a possible entry point for a hacker if it is. I would expect the fingerprint sensor to be a dumb device that sends data to the main MCU (or whatever phones have) for verification.


Julian F. G. W.

Certainly makes more sense to brick the device than de-authenticate it for these transactions when you notice...... if you are Apple.

-sd

[Urbandreamer]

A compromised fingerprint sensor could allow access to the contents of the phone, any secure banking apps on the phone, and the phone to make contactless payments (you can pay up to £10,000 by contactless payment on an iPhone).

Is that really true? Is the fingerprint sensor also the verification device? It could provide a possible entry point for a hacker if it is. I would expect the fingerprint sensor to be a dumb device that sends data to the main MCU (or whatever phones have) for verification.


Julian F. G. W.

Ignoring for a moment the security of a replaced fingerprint scanner, the fine was for preventing the repair of a cracked screen. The fingerprint scanner is a different device from the screen so I really don't know why AF62 is mentioning it.

If we do allow him to claim that the touch ID is part of the screen (which it isn't), then your thoughts are correct. It's a dumb device with the security being stored in a secure location on Apples processor.
More info on Wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_ID

[AF62]

A compromised fingerprint sensor could allow access to the contents of the phone, any secure banking apps on the phone, and the phone to make contactless payments (you can pay up to £10,000 by contactless payment on an iPhone).

Is that really true? Is the fingerprint sensor also the verification device? It could provide a possible entry point for a hacker if it is. I would expect the fingerprint sensor to be a dumb device that sends data to the main MCU (or whatever phones have) for verification.

Julian F. G. W.

Ignoring for a moment the security of a replaced fingerprint scanner, the fine was for preventing the repair of a cracked screen. The fingerprint scanner is a different device from the screen so I really don't know why AF62 is mentioning it.

If we do allow him to claim that the touch ID is part of the screen (which it isn't), then your thoughts are correct. It's a dumb device with the security being stored in a secure location on Apples processor.
More info on Wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_ID

Replacing the screen on an iPhone 6 (the phones in the court case) means taking off the front of the phone as the glass front was incorporated in a plastic surround which itself incorporated the fingerprint sensor, and then detaching the cable connecting the fingerprint sensor to the phone.

As the phone checks that the fingerprint sensor is the one which it was manufactured with (swapping it is a security issue) then the repairers would try to remove the sensor from the old frame with the broken screen and swap it into the new frame. All of which is quite tricky and if it was done by repairers who didn't know what they were doing then the cable or the fingerprint sensor was often damaged.

Thus when the repaired phone started up and as part of its security checks looked to confirm that the communication with the sensor had not been compromised. If it had been compromised then for safety the phone would not start up and would show an 'error 503'.

Apple updated the software after complaints so that the phone started after a bodged screen repair but it wouldn't use the sensor - so no fingerprint phone unlock, app authentication, or contactless payment.

[Urbandreamer]

Replacing the screen on an iPhone 6 (the phones in the court case) means taking off the front of the phone as the glass front was incorporated in a plastic surround which itself incorporated the fingerprint sensor, and then detaching the cable connecting the fingerprint sensor to the phone.

FWIW, I have in the past replaced a phone touch screen. Back then it entailed seperating the screen from the plasic surround. Personally I question the need to ensure that the fingerprint sensor, camera and battery are the ones originally fitted. However even if we accept that requirement it would be possible to design the plastic front to allow the screen and fingerprint sensor to be seperated from it (though it wasn't easy when I had to).

[AF62]

Replacing the screen on an iPhone 6 (the phones in the court case) means taking off the front of the phone as the glass front was incorporated in a plastic surround which itself incorporated the fingerprint sensor, and then detaching the cable connecting the fingerprint sensor to the phone.

FWIW, I have in the past replaced a phone touch screen. Back then it entailed seperating the screen from the plasic surround. Personally I question the need to ensure that the fingerprint sensor, camera and battery are the ones originally fitted. However even if we accept that requirement it would be possible to design the plastic front to allow the screen and fingerprint sensor to be seperated from it (though it wasn't easy when I had to).

Personally I am quite pleased that my phone and its contents and the systems it can access are strongly protected.

The screen and sensor of the iPhone 6 was designed to be repairable - after all Apple and its authorised repairers can do it successfully. It just wasn’t possible for some bloke offering that service from a market stall to be able to do it.

Now you could question whether that should be the case, but such devices sell to many people on how they look and feel, rather than how repairable they are. Design something less desirable but easier to repair and you sell fewer.

[Infrasonic]

Now you could question whether that should be the case, but such devices sell to many people on how they look and feel, rather than how repairable they are. Design something less desirable but easier to repair and you sell fewer.

Smartphones from practically all manufacturers have been pretty much the same form factor for years, specifically a rectangular slab. Metal/plastic/glass - still a slab. So I don't really see where 'design' comes into it (cosmetically at least).
Of course if you had an original smartphone way before Apple 'invented ' them -like the Nokia 9110 I had in 1999 - then they came in all sorts of form factors.

You could argue that they want to change the internal component layout for technical performance or durability reasons - some of that is valid.
The more tightly you package the less wiggle room there is for an accidental drop to damage components for example. Or to provide IP** dust and water resistance ratings. Fair enough.

I still question any OEM's true motives though that starts to make the two smartphone/laptop/tablet major components that require replacing the most - battery and screen - a multi stage special tool endeavour taking hours to replace not minutes. Sorry - call me cynical but I'm just not buying it.
And it isn't just Apple that are guilty here, it's endemic.

iFixit has plenty of ratings for other OEM's products that are right at the top of the difficulty scale - no way of upgrading/fixing without solder reflow kit / heat guns / special tools et al.

[bungeejumper]

I would suggest that 1 in 1000 people would be prepared to take the ‘spudger’ approach described earlier to dismantle their phone, so yes most people can’t change a battery. And most people don’t want to - they choose to buy phones that need the ‘spudger’ approach if you want to change the battery because they prioritise form factor above battery replacement.

I'm baffled. I've changed the battery on three of the four Android phones I've owned, and on the awful Microsoft Lumia phone too. You just unclip the back of the case, generally using the thumbnail slot that's been helpfully provided for you, and there the battery is, right in front of you. Lift it out. Drop another one in in its place. Done.

Oddly enough, that's also what you have to do when you first take a brand new phone of its box. (Well, one that isn't from Apple, anyway.) Unclip, fit SIM, fit battery, shut the case, power up.

No catch. No difficulty. No excuses for Apple not to make it just as simple. I really don't know how they've got away with their appalling closed-shop repair practices for so long. But somehow they have.

BJ

[AF62]

Now you could question whether that should be the case, but such devices sell to many people on how they look and feel, rather than how repairable they are. Design something less desirable but easier to repair and you sell fewer.

Smartphones from practically all manufacturers have been pretty much the same form factor for years, specifically a rectangular slab. Metal/plastic/glass - still a slab. So I don't really see where 'design' comes into it (cosmetically at least).
Of course if you had an original smartphone way before Apple 'invented ' them -like the Nokia 9110 I had in 1999 - then they came in all sorts of form factors.

The iPhone 6 was a different design to its competitors when it was released in 2014 as it had a fingerprint sensor, whilst phones such as the Nexus 6, HTC One (M8), and Moto X did not.

I'm baffled. I've changed the battery on three of the four Android phones I've owned, and on the awful Microsoft Lumia phone too. You just unclip the back of the case, generally using the thumbnail slot that's been helpfully provided for you, and there the battery is, right in front of you. Lift it out. Drop another one in in its place. Done.

Oddly enough, that's also what you have to do when you first take a brand new phone of its box. (Well, one that isn't from Apple, anyway.) Unclip, fit SIM, fit battery, shut the case, power up.

No catch. No difficulty. No excuses for Apple not to make it just as simple. I really don't know how they've got away with their appalling closed-shop repair practices for so long. But somehow they have.

BJ

Are those phones where you can unclip the back IP68 water resistant so you can take them down to a depth of 6 meters for half an hour?