'Right to repair' law to come in this summer

[Urbandreamer]

Does anyone still use a standalone satnav?

And if so why would they want to deprive themselves of the far superior routing, traffic, navigation, alerts, voice control, etc. that are available through a navigation app on a smartphone.

Yet another who still uses a standalone satnav. I have to use windows to update the map, but the rest of the navigation things that you mention work fine using the bluetooth connection to my phone.

The battery in the satnav is getting a bit old though and could do with replacing. The difficulty is in identifying the correct battery, oh and the fact that I'd have to get the spludgers out (yes we have a set). I fear that I'll have to dig the battery out just to find what type it is.

I have used my phone as a satnav and still do from time to time when I want directions to "the nearest supermarket". However since I have the standalone satnav, why not continue to use it?

As bungeejumper points out, a standalone satnav can be far bigger than would be comfortable for a phone to be.

[AF62]

However since I have the standalone satnav, why not continue to use it?

How well does it show traffic and do re-routing around traffic - Is it as good as Waze?

My primary use for a satnav isn't directions but traffic. I want to be alerted if there is something unusual and I want to be alerted before I get stuck in the queue so I can take an alternative route.

As bungeejumper points out, a standalone satnav can be far bigger than would be comfortable for a phone to be.

Depends - lots of smartphones these days have 5.5" screens, but as mentioned before, that is becoming irrelevant as you just connect the phone to the 8" / 10" / larger display built into the car.

[Urbandreamer]

However since I have the standalone satnav, why not continue to use it?

How well does it show traffic and do re-routing around traffic - Is it as good as Waze?

My primary use for a satnav isn't directions but traffic. I want to be alerted if there is something unusual and I want to be alerted before I get stuck in the queue so I can take an alternative route.

No idea about Waze. However the satnav uses my phones internet to get traffic info. It certainly displays it and I would assume routes around it.

I have found that phone based satnav's are quite good, however why wouldn't they be? At the end of the day it's just a program and data. Where a standalone does better is in the display department.

However to be fair I seldom need to use a satnav. Holidays (what are they) and the odd work related trip. I do use it when visiting my kids, like you, in case of traffic issues.

[Mike4]

How well does it show traffic and do re-routing around traffic - Is it as good as Waze?

My primary use for a satnav isn't directions but traffic. I want to be alerted if there is something unusual and I want to be alerted before I get stuck in the queue so I can take an alternative route.

Same here. I use my iPhone for navigation (and have done since about 2014) as it is streets better than the TomTom ever was.

I find it's route planning is ok and no better, I can sometimes beat it's suggestions on routes I know but it trips me up a treat sometimes, when I over-confidently ignore its suggestion and then find there has been an accident on the motorway, say, which was why it was suggesting an odd route in the first place. Duhhh...

Where it really comes into it's own is unerringly steering me to the actual street address once I get near my destination.

[Lanark]

It seems your complaint should be focused on Google who haven’t updated the YouTube app and also VLC for not updating theirs, rather than Apple who sold a tablet which still works.

And how many OS updates does the average Android manufacturer provide the user with over the product lifetime - most struggle to get above zero.

Just because Android manufacturers have terrible software support doesn't mean we can give Apple a pass for their terrible hardware support.

The point of legislation is that we can set a sensible base level of support and repairability, it is a shame that it needs to be put into law, but I guess thats capitalism, all the big tech companies have shown they are not going to do this voluntarily.

[Lanark]

I don't recall any company "deliberately obsolescing something by sabotaging its software" - do you have examples?

Going right back to about 1990, what first put me right off MS was the number of documents I lost.

Written in Word, saved to floppy (the medium of the day). Multiple copies on different floppies in case of mishaps. Refused to load in any Word version, including one that claimed to be the same as had created the documents. Totally unhelpful error messages, and no access to source code to try and fix or at least rescue it.

Never had, or read about, that problem at the time, and I think it would have made big news if updates to Word stopped supporting old ‘.doc’ documents.

I had this problem in the early-mid 90's.

The history of Word's early file format is that they were in such a race to beat WordPerfect they didn't have time to design one, so in early .doc files they simply took the in-memory image of the document and dumped it unchanged to disc.
Similarly to open a file they just read the data from disc, load it into RAM and hope for the best.

Now in those early days of DOS/Windows 3.1 memory management was unholy mess of 'loadhigh' tweaks, so while those early word formats would work on the same machine, take them to a different PC with a slightly different memory setup and the whole thing fell apart.
Really it is surprising this method worked at all and not at all surprising Microsoft were unable to write a converter for the old file formats, given that unstructured data, where would you even start?

I still store copies of important documents in plain text it's the only format that's 100% guaranteed to be readable in 20 years time. Once bitten...

[AF62]

It seems your complaint should be focused on Google who haven’t updated the YouTube app and also VLC for not updating theirs, rather than Apple who sold a tablet which still works.

And how many OS updates does the average Android manufacturer provide the user with over the product lifetime - most struggle to get above zero.

Just because Android manufacturers have terrible software support doesn't mean we can give Apple a pass for their terrible hardware support.

I am not sure what you mean in reference to Apple’s “terrible hardware support” as they seem to provide better and longer term support than any of the Android manufacturers - which seems to be the aim of this law.

[Urbandreamer]

I am not sure what you mean in reference to Apple’s “terrible hardware support” as they seem to provide better and longer term support than any of the Android manufacturers - which seems to be the aim of this law.

Just to clarify, if anyone other than AF62 needs it, Android is an operating system based upon Linux that is open source. They* DON'T manufacture ANY hardware. No not any hardware at all. Samsung don't "do" Android, they do propriety bits that run under Android, often on their hardware.

*Ok, to be clear: there are a couple of phones that are actually made by google rather than other manufacturers. Was AF62 talking about them? He is critical of my phone, possibly because it isn't "owned" by google, though I suspect because it isn't owned by Apple.

[AF62]

I am not sure what you mean in reference to Apple’s “terrible hardware support” as they seem to provide better and longer term support than any of the Android manufacturers - which seems to be the aim of this law.

Just to clarify, if anyone other than AF62 needs it, Android is an operating system based upon Linux that is open source. They* DON'T manufacture ANY hardware. No not any hardware at all. Samsung don't "do" Android, they do propriety bits that run under Android, often on their hardware.

*Ok, to be clear: there are a couple of phones that are actually made by google rather than other manufacturers. Was AF62 talking about them? He is critical of my phone, possibly because it isn't "owned" by google, though I suspect because it isn't owned by Apple.

I think most people completely understood that I referred to phone manufacturers who sell phones that run Android, and that includes Samsung.

[Urbandreamer]

I think most people completely understood that I referred to phone manufacturers who sell phones that run Android, and that includes Samsung.

To be honest that is not the impression that I get. The impression that I get is that you think "most people" can't change a battery. Or should not expect to be able to do so. Or for that matter be denied the ability to do so.

We live in a Science fiction world. Bubgeejumper may want to deny it, but we do. Let us take advice from a SF author who came before.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.

[AF62]

I think most people completely understood that I referred to phone manufacturers who sell phones that run Android, and that includes Samsung.

To be honest that is not the impression that I get. The impression that I get is that you think "most people" can't change a battery. Or should not expect to be able to do so. Or for that matter be denied the ability to do so.

I would suggest that 1 in 1000 people would be prepared to take the ‘spudger’ approach described earlier to dismantle their phone, so yes most people can’t change a battery. And most people don’t want to - they choose to buy phones that need the ‘spudger’ approach if you want to change the battery because they prioritise form factor above battery replacement.

[Lanark]

It seems your complaint should be focused on Google who haven’t updated the YouTube app and also VLC for not updating theirs, rather than Apple who sold a tablet which still works.

And how many OS updates does the average Android manufacturer provide the user with over the product lifetime - most struggle to get above zero.

Just because Android manufacturers have terrible software support doesn't mean we can give Apple a pass for their terrible hardware support.

I am not sure what you mean in reference to Apple’s “terrible hardware support” as they seem to provide better and longer term support than any of the Android manufacturers - which seems to be the aim of this law.

Apple refuse to supply spare parts to 3rd party repair shops.
In the short term that just means there is less competition and higher prices for repairs.
In the long term, once Apple stop repairing an older model it can become unfixable.

Apple have also made recent moves to prevent swapping parts between devices, even something as simple as a battery. Some of Apple's device lockdown has been argued as necessary for better security, but really I don't see the security risk in changing out a battery.

[AF62]

Just because Android manufacturers have terrible software support doesn't mean we can give Apple a pass for their terrible hardware support.

I am not sure what you mean in reference to Apple’s “terrible hardware support” as they seem to provide better and longer term support than any of the Android manufacturers - which seems to be the aim of this law.

Apple refuse to supply spare parts to 3rd party repair shops.
In the short term that just means there is less competition and higher prices for repairs.
In the long term, once Apple stop repairing an older model it can become unfixable.

Apple have also made recent moves to prevent swapping parts between devices, even something as simple as a battery. Some of Apple's device lockdown has been argued as necessary for better security, but really I don't see the security risk in changing out a battery.

Dismantling the phone to change the battery frequently broke the fingerprint sensor when attempted by untrained people and Apple considered that a security issue.

Remind me, how many manufacturers of phones which run Android will sell their customer a battery for customers to fit - and that is the manufacturer selling them directly, not something which claims to be compatible and bought from a random website.

[Urbandreamer]

[I would suggest that 1 in 1000 people would be prepared to take the ‘spudger’ approach described earlier to dismantle their phone, so yes most people can’t change a battery. And most people don’t want to - they choose to buy phones that need the ‘spudger’ approach if you want to change the battery because they prioritise form factor above battery replacement.

Is it JUST phones? You can buy tools to change the washers in taps. Or indeed to change the batteries in watches. Many remember being able to change fuses.

Would you even think it, but you can buy tools to look inside your children's noses to help remove things that they stuff up them. Yes I have all! And have used them for what I said.

I would suggest that possibly more than 1 in 1000, would be prefer to be, at least able, to do the needed. For goodness sake, while it was intended that my children would be delivered by those with practice, I delivered my second child without professional support. Though the next didn't put me through that.

She is now doing biomedicine at York.

Oh, by the way in her first year I sent her a fan, heat sink compound and a set of instructions to fix her laptop. She was able to do so.

[AF62]

I would suggest that possibly more than 1 in 1000, would be prefer to be, at least able, to do the needed.

I would suggest they don’t, otherwise phones with changeable batteries would outsell those which require ‘spudgers’!

But even back in the dim and distant past when you could buy a Nokia with a changeable battery, when you came to buy a new battery then although lots of places claimed to sell genuine Nokia batteries and they looked genuine(ish), they had a pathetic capacity and usually only lasted a short time. And then you threw the phone away and bought a new one.

Oh, by the way in her first year I sent her a fan, heat sink compound and a set of instructions to fix her laptop. She was able to do so.

Obviously she didn’t have an Apple MacBook...

[Urbandreamer]

Obviously she didn’t have an Apple MacBook...

No she didn't she has an old Thinkpad. For those who don't know IBM made the first Thinkpad long before the macbook. For a HUGE amount of time it was the industry standard. You can STILL buy oficiial spares for almost EVERY model that they made. And YES you can pay them to do the work for you.

You can STILL buy spare parts for her laptop.

You can't BUY for many Apple products. Indeed I think that I pointed out that even those sourced from Apple might not work (though IBM also did that). Your point is that this is a good thing?

Ps modern Thinkpads are actually chinese, but still fantastic. Do a search for how they survive. My daughters is old so you can only drown it in wine, modern ones you can drive over.

[Urbandreamer]

Here is a 7 year old wine test on a thinkpad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U5n2WaMMHo

[Urbandreamer]

Oh, recent youtube comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZUSFda_W7k

NOTE, it's about hardware. Personally I'm using a X230 (old thinkpad) running linux. Again, deep in the internals linux is very like the mac OS.
The mac OS is "posix", a standardised form of Unix. Linux is not. But intended to be close.

After that it's just about the user interface. KDE, Gnome, Cinnamin, XFCE, Mate, Pantheon, Trinity... well take your pick or make your own.

Seriously it's not all Apple, Apple, Apple.....
Thee are good alternatives.

[AF62]

NOTE, it's about hardware. Personally I'm using a X230 (old thinkpad) running linux. Again, deep in the internals linux is very like the mac OS.
The mac OS is "posix", a standardised form of Unix. Linux is not. But intended to be close.

After that it's just about the user interface. KDE, Gnome, Cinnamin, XFCE, Mate, Pantheon, Trinity... well take your pick or make your own.

I prefer Windows 10...

Seriously it's not all Apple, Apple, Apple.....
Thee are good alternatives.

Of course there are, but in the topic being discussed of legislation to ensure that consumer goods are not thrown away prematurely, Apple is one of an incredibly small group of manufacturers of phones/tablets/computers who are prepared to support their products for years after they have been sold - and are not the devil incarnate some consider them to be.

Most manufacturers of phones/tablets sell the device and then that is the last you will hear about security OS updates, and god forbid if it gets damaged out of warranty or the battery needs replacing - you won't get any assistance from the manufacturer and will be relying on some random person on the local 'we can fix it' stall in the market fitting some 'it looks a bit like the original' parts with fingers crossed it might work afterwards.

[servodude]

you won't get any assistance from the manufacturer and will be relying on some random person on the local 'we can fix it' stall in the market fitting some 'it looks a bit like the original' parts with fingers crossed it might work afterwards

I'm on the fence here

There's some bona fide genuine repair bods who do great work servicing/repairing equipment who are looking at their business vanishing due to the serialisation of components
- there's a balance that needs struck

Consumers shouldn't be beholden to manufacturers once they've bought the product

-sd