Roaming charges...

[AF62]

The point is rather that they charge what the market will bear.

Exactly, now that they have been freeded from the constraints of legislation the operators are acting together to increase prices as far as they can.

It has nothing at all to do with the cost of delivering the service or building the infrastructure, it is simply charge as much as possible.

So back towards where we were before EU roaming was required, and back to the types and size of charges politicians assured everyone would never happen.

[Lootman]

The point is rather that they charge what the market will bear.

Exactly, now that they have been freeded from the constraints of legislation the operators are acting together to increase prices as far as they can.

It has nothing at all to do with the cost of delivering the service or building the infrastructure, it is simply charge as much as possible.

So back towards where we were before EU roaming was required, and back to the types and size of charges politicians assured everyone would never happen.

I don't know about you but personally I do not think it is the job of any politician to protect me from free-market capitalism, nor to bully or otherwise engineer artificially low pricing for anything.

Now there is a case for some level of pricing regulation if and only if one company has a monopoly. But in this case there is competition and it is trivially easy to switch from one carrier to another. It is not like the bad old days when it was BT or nothing. If all telco's start charging for roaming then a new entrant might enter the market with free roaming and clean up. That invisible hand thingy.

You have choices e.g. switch carrier, don't use roaming overseas, use wi-fi calling or whatsapp calling, buy a cheap local phone when overseas and so on. I do not think we need an ombudsmen for roaming.

[Infrasonic]

Now there is a case for some level of pricing regulation if and only if one company has a monopoly. But in this case there is competition and it is trivially easy to switch from one carrier to another. It is not like the bad old days when it was BT or nothing. If all telco's start charging for roaming then a new entrant might enter the market with free roaming and clean up. That invisible hand thingy.

You have choices e.g. switch carrier, don't use roaming overseas, use wi-fi calling or whatsapp calling, buy a cheap local phone when overseas and so on. I do not think we need an ombudsmen for roaming.

You only have choices because of legislation and regulators.You don't need monopolies for there to be problems.

Look at the antitrust action in the US and EU against the biggest players, MS, Google, Apple et al.

Look at how many times Samsung and the other big RAM/NAND fab plant owners have been fined for price fixing.

The brewery industry used to routinely price fix.

Car companies cheat on their emissions numbers...

'Free' market economics is an oxymoron as there is nothing 'free' about it, never has been. It is manipulated by those with the power and money to do so in their best interests.

[Lootman]

Now there is a case for some level of pricing regulation if and only if one company has a monopoly. But in this case there is competition and it is trivially easy to switch from one carrier to another. It is not like the bad old days when it was BT or nothing. If all telco's start charging for roaming then a new entrant might enter the market with free roaming and clean up. That invisible hand thingy.

You have choices e.g. switch carrier, don't use roaming overseas, use wi-fi calling or whatsapp calling, buy a cheap local phone when overseas and so on. I do not think we need an ombudsmen for roaming.

You only have choices because of legislation and regulators.You don't need monopolies for there to be problems.

Look at the antitrust action in the US and EU against the biggest players, MS, Google, Apple et al.

Look at how many times Samsung and the other big RAM/NAND fab plant owners have been fined for price fixing.

The brewery industry used to routinely price fix.

Car companies cheat on their emissions numbers...

'Free' market economics is an oxymoron as there is nothing 'free' about it, never has been. It is manipulated by those with the power and money to do so in their best interests.

Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me.

[AF62]

The point is rather that they charge what the market will bear.

Exactly, now that they have been freeded from the constraints of legislation the operators are acting together to increase prices as far as they can.

It has nothing at all to do with the cost of delivering the service or building the infrastructure, it is simply charge as much as possible.

So back towards where we were before EU roaming was required, and back to the types and size of charges politicians assured everyone would never happen.

I don't know about you but personally I do not think it is the job of any politician to protect me from free-market capitalism, nor to bully or otherwise engineer artificially low pricing for anything.

Now there is a case for some level of pricing regulation if and only if one company has a monopoly. But in this case there is competition and it is trivially easy to switch from one carrier to another. It is not like the bad old days when it was BT or nothing. If all telco's start charging for roaming then a new entrant might enter the market with free roaming and clean up. That invisible hand thingy.

You have choices e.g. switch carrier, don't use roaming overseas, use wi-fi calling or whatsapp calling, buy a cheap local phone when overseas and so on. I do not think we need an ombudsmen for roaming.

We are not talking about artificially low pricing but the reverse, artificially high prices. The telecom companies have been quite profitable whilst they were required to include EU roaming, so increasing prices now is just a profit grab.

A new entrant entering the market - don't be absurd. Where would they get the frequency rights for their service - rights which are controlled and sold by the government with none available to buy.

As for competition, there are only four companies controlling the market so it is trivially easy for them to act to the disadvantage of the consumer.

And as for choice, not really if you live in an area where only one network has coverage.

[paulnumbers]

Well, it's probably not cheap to negotiate deals with 27 european countries, and backhaul the traffic to the UK. So I see no intrinsic reason why they shouldn't charge a fee for this, and those that don't require the service don't pay.

But do you think if costs them so much that they need to triple the monthly rate, which is what Vodafone do. Or charge six times the monthly rate for a fortnight away, which is what EE are proposing.

It is price gouging, pure and simple. And our pathetic politicians will do nothing.

And nor should they, it's your and my job to punish them, and switch our custom to someone else. (as lootman says, whether that's another company, or simply using wifi when abroad or picking up a cheap local sim).

[AF62]

Well, it's probably not cheap to negotiate deals with 27 european countries, and backhaul the traffic to the UK. So I see no intrinsic reason why they shouldn't charge a fee for this, and those that don't require the service don't pay.

But do you think if costs them so much that they need to triple the monthly rate, which is what Vodafone do. Or charge six times the monthly rate for a fortnight away, which is what EE are proposing.

It is price gouging, pure and simple. And our pathetic politicians will do nothing.

And nor should they, it's your and my job to punish them, and switch our custom to someone else. (as lootman says, whether that's another company, or simply using wifi when abroad or picking up a cheap local sim).

How do you use another company when they have all, coincidentally, decided to impose roaming charges?

How do you use wifi when you are needing it for say navigation in the middle of nowhere.

And have you ever tried to buy a local sim - in some countries it is very difficult due to the ID checks imposed, such as Spain after the train bombings.

So nice to know that life has just become a little worse, but we should just 'suck it up'.

[paulnumbers]

But do you think if costs them so much that they need to triple the monthly rate, which is what Vodafone do. Or charge six times the monthly rate for a fortnight away, which is what EE are proposing.

It is price gouging, pure and simple. And our pathetic politicians will do nothing.

And nor should they, it's your and my job to punish them, and switch our custom to someone else. (as lootman says, whether that's another company, or simply using wifi when abroad or picking up a cheap local sim).

How do you use another company when they have all, coincidentally, decided to impose roaming charges?

How do you use wifi when you are needing it for say navigation in the middle of nowhere.

And have you ever tried to buy a local sim - in some countries it is very difficult due to the ID checks imposed, such as Spain after the train bombings.

So nice to know that life has just become a little worse, but we should just 'suck it up'.

Just buy a SIM from another country in the EU if Spain is an issue.

Suck it up or not, that's your choice.

[AF62]

And nor should they, it's your and my job to punish them, and switch our custom to someone else. (as lootman says, whether that's another company, or simply using wifi when abroad or picking up a cheap local sim).

How do you use another company when they have all, coincidentally, decided to impose roaming charges?

How do you use wifi when you are needing it for say navigation in the middle of nowhere.

And have you ever tried to buy a local sim - in some countries it is very difficult due to the ID checks imposed, such as Spain after the train bombings.

So nice to know that life has just become a little worse, but we should just 'suck it up'.

Just buy a SIM from another country in the EU if Spain is an issue.

Suck it up or not, that's your choice.

So I land at Madrid airport and you suggest I buy a Swedish* sim card, hmmm.

And how do I divert calls from my UK number to this Swedish number at no cost. And does this Swedish sim allow me to make calls back to the UK at no cost? And can I get this Swedish sim as an esim for my watch.

*Or any of the other non Spanish countries in the EU which I am also sure doesn't have a shop in Madrid airport.

And it isn't my choice. It is the telecom company's choice to increase their profits.

[Lootman]

how do I divert calls from my UK number to this Swedish number at no cost. And does this Swedish sim allow me to make calls back to the UK at no cost?

Why do you want to do all that?

Sounds like an ambitious set of requirements to expect for free wherever in the world you go. Why shouldn't people like me who don't want all that pay less than you?

[AF62]

how do I divert calls from my UK number to this Swedish number at no cost. And does this Swedish sim allow me to make calls back to the UK at no cost?

Why do you want to do all that?

Sounds like an ambitious set of requirements to expect for free wherever in the world you go. Why shouldn't people like me who don't want all that pay less than you?

It seems ambitious to have a phone and want to be able to make and receive phone calls in the EU countries that they sold the service as being able to roam at no cost?

I am perfectly happy to pay for it; I just think it is unreasonable that they are more than doubling the annual cost of the existing package, which currently incorporates those overhead costs, to continue to be able to receive those services.

[paulnumbers]

how do I divert calls from my UK number to this Swedish number at no cost. And does this Swedish sim allow me to make calls back to the UK at no cost?

Why do you want to do all that?

Sounds like an ambitious set of requirements to expect for free wherever in the world you go. Why shouldn't people like me who don't want all that pay less than you?

It seems ambitious to have a phone and want to be able to make and receive phone calls in the EU countries that they sold the service as being able to roam at no cost?

I am perfectly happy to pay for it; I just think it is unreasonable that they are more than doubling the annual cost of the existing package, which currently incorporates those overhead costs, to continue to be able to receive those services.

It sounds very unreasonable, I suggest you cease giving them your custom.

[Infrasonic]

It sounds very unreasonable, I suggest you cease giving them your custom.

And that sounds like a canned armchair response to something that is nuanced and complicated - not least by the deliberate tampering with technical offerings by the networks to make 'consumer choice' a marketing gimmick rather than reality.

I don't have any issue with companies making a profit. I don't have any issue with shareholders and management getting decent remuneration/returns for well run companies.

I do however object to being taken for a mug by supposedly 'competitive' businesses that have a very vested interest in skewing things in their favour often by colluding with the competition.

I remember reading a book once that outlined how when the initial auctions for mobile spectrum took place in the UK the selling side (the Govt.) had to employ game theorists as they worked out the networks were price signalling to each other in code to stop it being a true highest bidder scenario.

Now you could argue that would have helped consumers through lower operating costs - the problem is they will apply the same tactics to any situation they can get away with to improve their net margins across the board.

The easiest people to fleece are consumers as 99% are clueless about the ripoffs and those that are aware can do very little about it unless they want to get involved in lengthy class/group action legal proceedings (which do happen) - or we can all rely on regulators and legislation to protect us from overly predatory behaviour.

I don't think anyone is advocating some ridiculous rainbow socialist Valhalla - just an acceptance that theoretical economic arguments like 'free markets' always leading to the best outcomes are fundamentally flawed - like much else in economics which why there is so much disagreement within it as an academic discipline. (As a social science- not a hard science ... ).

[servodude]

The easiest people to fleece are consumers as 99% are clueless about the ripoffs and those that are aware can do very little about it

Isn't this a cases where the customer has become the product over night.... in so far as the UK has removed itself from a jurisdiction that protected its population (from an antitrust perspective in this domain) in to a position where they can allow the telcos to ramp up their charges?
If you tax the profits it helps the government bottom line
- if you don't then palms are greased anyway

-sd

[AF62]

Why do you want to do all that?

Sounds like an ambitious set of requirements to expect for free wherever in the world you go. Why shouldn't people like me who don't want all that pay less than you?

It seems ambitious to have a phone and want to be able to make and receive phone calls in the EU countries that they sold the service as being able to roam at no cost?

I am perfectly happy to pay for it; I just think it is unreasonable that they are more than doubling the annual cost of the existing package, which currently incorporates those overhead costs, to continue to be able to receive those services.

It sounds very unreasonable, I suggest you cease giving them your custom.

So your suggestion is that I stop using a mobile phone; hmm, not the most sensible suggestion.

[paulnumbers]

It seems ambitious to have a phone and want to be able to make and receive phone calls in the EU countries that they sold the service as being able to roam at no cost?

I am perfectly happy to pay for it; I just think it is unreasonable that they are more than doubling the annual cost of the existing package, which currently incorporates those overhead costs, to continue to be able to receive those services.

It sounds very unreasonable, I suggest you cease giving them your custom.

So your suggestion is that I stop using a mobile phone; hmm, not the most sensible suggestion.

You've had plenty of reasonable suggestions, whether you avail yourself of them is entirely upto you.

[paulnumbers]

It sounds very unreasonable, I suggest you cease giving them your custom.

And that sounds like a canned armchair response to something that is nuanced and complicated - not least by the deliberate tampering with technical offerings by the networks to make 'consumer choice' a marketing gimmick rather than reality.

I don't have any issue with companies making a profit. I don't have any issue with shareholders and management getting decent remuneration/returns for well run companies.

I do however object to being taken for a mug by supposedly 'competitive' businesses that have a very vested interest in skewing things in their favour often by colluding with the competition.

I remember reading a book once that outlined how when the initial auctions for mobile spectrum took place in the UK the selling side (the Govt.) had to employ game theorists as they worked out the networks were price signalling to each other in code to stop it being a true highest bidder scenario.

Now you could argue that would have helped consumers through lower operating costs - the problem is they will apply the same tactics to any situation they can get away with to improve their net margins across the board.

The easiest people to fleece are consumers as 99% are clueless about the ripoffs and those that are aware can do very little about it unless they want to get involved in lengthy class/group action legal proceedings (which do happen) - or we can all rely on regulators and legislation to protect us from overly predatory behaviour.

I don't think anyone is advocating some ridiculous rainbow socialist Valhalla - just an acceptance that theoretical economic arguments like 'free markets' always leading to the best outcomes are fundamentally flawed - like much else in economics which why there is so much disagreement within it as an academic discipline. (As a social science- not a hard science ... ).

I think you're right to point out some of the potential issues with competition, or lack of it, but I would suggest we're not at the point where we have to worry about it. Whether that day arrives I couldn't tell you. In our system the switched on and motivated always do best, I do have some sympathy for those that can't navigate the competition well, and perhaps there's a role for government in helping those people in some limited way.

But, I have zero sympathy for those who quite clearly are capable, and can navigate the world around them, but want regulators to do the heavy lifting for them. In fact, I suppose I'm sort of pleased those people exist, as without them I wouldn't have so many loss leaders to pick from. I suspect that my Gas/Electic/Internet & mobile phone provider are all delivered very close to cost, or even below it.

[AF62]

It sounds very unreasonable, I suggest you cease giving them your custom.

So your suggestion is that I stop using a mobile phone; hmm, not the most sensible suggestion.

You've had plenty of reasonable suggestions, whether you avail yourself of them is entirely upto you.

As previously explained, none of them are actually reasonable.

[paulnumbers]

So your suggestion is that I stop using a mobile phone; hmm, not the most sensible suggestion.

You've had plenty of reasonable suggestions, whether you avail yourself of them is entirely upto you.

As previously explained, none of them are actually reasonable.

It's quite clear you don't actually want a solution, if you'd spent the time looking for one instead of this conversation, you'd have one. For a start, several UK providers don't charge!

[AF62]

You've had plenty of reasonable suggestions, whether you avail yourself of them is entirely upto you.

As previously explained, none of them are actually reasonable.

It's quite clear you don't actually want a solution, if you'd spent the time looking for one instead of this conversation, you'd have one. For a start, several UK providers don't charge!

They all do - EE, O2, and Vodafone. Nobody else offers esims for Apple watches.