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BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

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Jonetc15
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BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

#425031

Postby Jonetc15 » July 5th, 2021, 5:39 pm

I have a new BT Smart Hub 2. Two individuals who know a lot about IT have given me totally opposite advice. One has said that the hub should be left switched on permanently (i.e. particularly at night) as it gets used to the ambience (I think). The other person says that it is good practice to switch the hub off for security and that it will rectify any issues when switched back on again.

I will greatly appreciate any advice/opinions.

TIA

Jon

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Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

#425032

Postby Midsmartin » July 5th, 2021, 5:45 pm

Either is fine. Manufacturers expect them to be left on.
You will save a few watts of power turning it off though.
Some say that frequently turning things on and off shortens their life due to thermal expansion and contraction of joints. I think modern devices seem OK on this. If a router is going to fail it's quite capable of doing so randomly without it being turned off and on again.
Some in the tin hat brigade think it's better to turn wifi off when not in use too. I think there is no reason to do so, other than saving those few watts.
The security reasons for turning it off are close to nil I think.

You can easily flick it off and on again for a reboot if you experience any odd connection problems.

So it's your choice. I leave mine on because I can't be bothered to turn it off. And I'd forget to turn it on when I wanted it, which would be irritating.

Jonetc15
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Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

#425052

Postby Jonetc15 » July 5th, 2021, 6:59 pm

Midsmartin wrote:Either is fine. Manufacturers expect them to be left on.
You will save a few watts of power turning it off though…

…So it's your choice. I leave mine on because I can't be bothered to turn it off. And I'd forget to turn it on when I wanted it, which would be irritating.



Very many thanks Midsmartin for such a prompt and helpful reply. I’ll leave my hub on for convenience. Most grateful.

Jon

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Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

#425069

Postby mc2fool » July 5th, 2021, 8:11 pm

    You should absolutely leave broadband routers/modems on overnight, indeed, constantly, and if you google for the matter you will find that is the recommended advice. The reasons are:

    (a) Broadband systems have Dynamic Line Management (DLM) algorithms at the exchange, which are used to control the speed and stability of its broadband connections, trying to find the best balance between performance and stability for each line. DLM works both in the short term and over a period. So, if your line suddenly starts going flaky and dropping connections it will lower the speed and/or increase the error correction to try and get back a stable connection. It also however monitors the line over a longer period and "fine tunes" the line accordingly. The parameters of that vary by ISP but AFAIAA the "longer period" is always at least 48 hours. Here's what an ISP in Norfolk says about their service (I couldn't find equivalent info from BT on a quick search).

    "If the DLM detects errors, dropping connection or low sync rates it will lower the throughput of the line and/or increase the error correction on the line in order to help keep the line healthy. The profile will be updated within 75 minutes of the issue occurring.

    The profile will then remain unchanged until the condition of the line improves and remains so for between 4 hours and 72 hours at which point the DLM will increase the profile accordingly. If at any time the condition re-occurs the timing is reset and it will take another 4 – 72 hours before it increases the profile.
    " https://www.netcom.co.uk/dlm-dynamic-line-management/

    So if you go turning off your router at night DLM will likely think the line is less than rock solid and could well give you lower speeds as a result.

    This, BTW, is why when you get BB installed in the first place, and whenever they do anything to it, e.g. after you've reported a problem, they tell you to wait a few days to see how it goes, it's to give DLM the time to get "the feel" of the line again and tune the best stability-vs-speed balance -- and they mean a few days with it always on.

    Also, when DLM does decide to fine tune (as opposed to short term recovery), it's always in the middle of the night. If it feels the need, TalkTalk's DLM adjusts my line around 03:36am, give or take a minute!

    (b) Router software updates and remote management maintenance functions are almost always conducted overnight. If you have your router turned off then you may miss some important security or other updates.

    Infrasonic
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    Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

    #425072

    Postby Infrasonic » July 5th, 2021, 8:14 pm

    With ADSL the recommendation was to leave it switched on so that the modem could stabilise/optimise the connection speed - with modern FTTC/P I'm not sure it would make any difference.

    Some routers do get very hot as they have no fans and it has been suggested that may lead to the short life of some, so turning off at night may prolong their serviceable time. I've had a couple die on me inside a year - but my AC mains wasn't consistent either so it could have been that.

    Security - well technically it is more secure if switched off as it would be pretty impossible to hack then. :D

    In reality if there is a security bug in the firmware then all you'd be doing would be delaying the hack until it was switched on. Modem/routers are subject to pretty much constant 'port scanning' (you can see it in the router logs if you have access).
    As long as your ISP is on it and updates the firmware to the hub when needed then all is well and good - don't worry about it.
    Have a check here every now and again and make sure your hub isn't mentioned as having a security vulnerability...
    https://routersecurity.org/RouterNews.php

    servodude
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    Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

    #425123

    Postby servodude » July 6th, 2021, 3:09 am

    I'd leave it on
    - but I'd disable WPS in the settings - that's really the only easily exploited feature of home WiFi

    - sd

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    Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

    #425190

    Postby didds » July 6th, 2021, 11:14 am

    servodude wrote:I'd leave it on
    - but I'd disable WPS in the settings - that's really the only easily exploited feature of home WiFi

    - sd



    All Id say about that, is AIUI to utilise WPS, whoever is abusing it is having to physically press the WPS button on your router, in order to connect their device to your wifi.

    If somebody you dont trust with your wifi is inside your house, unattended, then you may have bigger concerns than them gaining access to your home wifi network.

    didds

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    Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

    #425199

    Postby servodude » July 6th, 2021, 11:41 am

    didds wrote:
    servodude wrote:I'd leave it on
    - but I'd disable WPS in the settings - that's really the only easily exploited feature of home WiFi

    - sd



    All Id say about that, is AIUI to utilise WPS, whoever is abusing it is having to physically press the WPS button on your router, in order to connect their device to your wifi.

    If somebody you dont trust with your wifi is inside your house, unattended, then you may have bigger concerns than them gaining access to your home wifi network.

    didds


    It's not a secure design - it punches a bit of a hole in WPA

    WPS works on an 8 digit pin, but a router ACKs if the first 4 are correct so it's basically a brute force on 10k values twice (but there's a timed schedule for when they can be tried)

    On a router before this was known it just takes a couple of linux scripts (aircrack-ng, reaver or bully - there might be more these days ) and a bit of time to crack
    - and if you're anything like my noisy neighbour you've reused your wifi password for your router admin

    -sd

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    Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

    #425213

    Postby mc2fool » July 6th, 2021, 12:17 pm

    didds wrote:
    servodude wrote:I'd leave it on
    - but I'd disable WPS in the settings - that's really the only easily exploited feature of home WiFi

    All Id say about that, is AIUI to utilise WPS, whoever is abusing it is having to physically press the WPS button on your router, in order to connect their device to your wifi.

    If somebody you dont trust with your wifi is inside your house, unattended, then you may have bigger concerns than them gaining access to your home wifi network.

    Google, read and learn. :D https://www.google.com/search?q=hacking+wps

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    Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

    #425856

    Postby mc2fool » July 8th, 2021, 12:59 pm

    Infrasonic wrote:With ADSL the recommendation was to leave it switched on so that the modem could stabilise/optimise the connection speed - with modern FTTC/P I'm not sure it would make any difference.

    As it turns out, TalkTalk decided "as a thanks for being a loyal customer" to upgrade my ASDL service to FTTC this week for free and the same ongoing price. The change happened at 5.30pm-ish on Tuesday and my connection went from 14000-16000/700-1100 Kbs to exactly 40000/9999 Kbs.

    There was no middle-of-the-night resync early Wednesday but there was one this morning (Thu), at 03:29, so my first thought was, aha, DLM does do its thing on fibre too ... but then the speed is exactly the same as before so it's not clear what's changed (there's nothing in the router logs to give any indication).

    The router says the line is capable of 84634/26869, so obviously the 40000/9999 I'm getting is strapped to that 'cos of the "Fibre 35" package I'm now on, so possibly DLM decided to fine tune the max speed, even though it won't affect the actual speed ... would seem a bit pointless ... :?

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    Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

    #425865

    Postby Infrasonic » July 8th, 2021, 1:21 pm

    mc2fool wrote:
    Infrasonic wrote:With ADSL the recommendation was to leave it switched on so that the modem could stabilise/optimise the connection speed - with modern FTTC/P I'm not sure it would make any difference.

    As it turns out, TalkTalk decided "as a thanks for being a loyal customer" to upgrade my ASDL service to FTTC this week for free and the same ongoing price. The change happened at 5.30pm-ish on Tuesday and my connection went from 14000-16000/700-1100 Kbs to exactly 40000/9999 Kbs.

    There was no middle-of-the-night resync early Wednesday but there was one this morning (Thu), at 03:29, so my first thought was, aha, DLM does do its thing on fibre too ... but then the speed is exactly the same as before so it's not clear what's changed (there's nothing in the router logs to give any indication).

    The router says the line is capable of 84634/26869, so obviously the 40000/9999 I'm getting is strapped to that 'cos of the "Fibre 35" package I'm now on, so possibly DLM decided to fine tune the max speed, even though it won't affect the actual speed ... would seem a bit pointless ... :?


    With FTTC you've still got the copper last leg, so I suppose that would require a bit of active management depending on noise/impedance stability issues.
    Thinking about it another house I look after IT wise with EE FTTC BB has had variable bandwidth issues (45Mb down 10Mb up on a good day) and the router logs did reveal reconnects.
    The last time I was down there bandwidth was steadily decreasing over more than a week, so I left a note for the owner to hassle EE about it.

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    Re: BT Smart hub 2 - turn off at night?

    #425939

    Postby XFool » July 8th, 2021, 5:57 pm

    mc2fool wrote:
      You should absolutely leave broadband routers/modems on overnight, indeed, constantly, and if you google for the matter you will find that is the recommended advice. The reasons are:

      (a) Broadband systems have Dynamic Line Management (DLM) algorithms at the exchange, which are used to control the speed and stability of its broadband connections, trying to find the best balance between performance and stability for each line. DLM works both in the short term and over a period. So, if your line suddenly starts going flaky and dropping connections it will lower the speed and/or increase the error correction to try and get back a stable connection. It also however monitors the line over a longer period and "fine tunes" the line accordingly. The parameters of that vary by ISP but AFAIAA the "longer period" is always at least 48 hours. Here's what an ISP in Norfolk says about their service (I couldn't find equivalent info from BT on a quick search).

      "If the DLM detects errors, dropping connection or low sync rates it will lower the throughput of the line and/or increase the error correction on the line in order to help keep the line healthy. The profile will be updated within 75 minutes of the issue occurring.

      The profile will then remain unchanged until the condition of the line improves and remains so for between 4 hours and 72 hours at which point the DLM will increase the profile accordingly. If at any time the condition re-occurs the timing is reset and it will take another 4 – 72 hours before it increases the profile.
      " https://www.netcom.co.uk/dlm-dynamic-line-management/

      So if you go turning off your router at night DLM will likely think the line is less than rock solid and could well give you lower speeds as a result.

      Which is exactly what all the ADSL/Network specialists and experts on ADSL forums etc. always say and always recommend.

      In all my (ADSL) experience: IT'S BUNK

      THIS APPLIES TO ADSL+ BROADBAND - Wouldn't know about FTTC Broadband:
      I have never had the best speed ADSL as when I used to routinely turn my router off every night and on again in the morning. The situation may be more 'edgy' these days as the whole RF and network environment seems to have changed. My experience of ADSL, with my router, my exchange and my supplier is that the speed is negotiated at switch on (actually rather like dial-up!), determined by the SNR setting and held flat constant from then on until a break or reconnection. Noise, errors etc. causes the SNR to wander about rather than the speed. At least, that's what dlstats tells me, unless it's lying.

      IMO, the main problem with the DLM is if there IS a fault and you are trying to test things and need to reboot the router several times. THAT is when the blasted DLM will get you. Not Evening/Morning.


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