UK analogue landlines to end in 2025

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
Could everyone refrain from continuing off-topic discussion on this thread please. (chas49)

[UncleEbenezer]

If things go as planned Starlink won't be the only game in town, there will be a UK alternative too. In July last year the UK government invested $500 million to buy a 45% stake in OneWeb (https://www.engadget.com/uk-oneweb-sate ... 05051.html).

Just goes to show, they won't learn the lessons of history.

Remember ICL? Britain's "me-too" to the mainframe era - we just had to have a national champion to become a sick joke. We used to think Thatcher had killed off that kind of socialist big-government planning.

Well, at least that nonsense was a lot shorter-lived than ICL. Latest figures (the price of the sale to a French company) suggest a £200m writeoff for the UK taxpayer.

[GeoffF100]

If things go as planned Starlink won't be the only game in town, there will be a UK alternative too. In July last year the UK government invested $500 million to buy a 45% stake in OneWeb (https://www.engadget.com/uk-oneweb-sate ... 05051.html).

Just goes to show, they won't learn the lessons of history.

Remember ICL? Britain's "me-too" to the mainframe era - we just had to have a national champion to become a sick joke. We used to think Thatcher had killed off that kind of socialist big-government planning.

Well, at least that nonsense was a lot shorter-lived than ICL. Latest figures (the price of the sale to a French company) suggest a £200m writeoff for the UK taxpayer.

Here is the history of ICL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... rs_Limited

They were bought by STC, and finally sold to Fujitsu.

[XFool]

The current POTS relies on a DC supply, 48v On-Hook, to the consumer landline.

Does anyone know, when the old analogue 'last mile' service is turned off, will the DC line voltage disappear with it?

[newlyretired]

The current POTS relies on a DC supply, 48v On-Hook, to the consumer landline.

Does anyone know, when the old analogue 'last mile' service is turned off, will the DC line voltage disappear with it?

OK, in the absence of a more knowledgable reply...

...I'm running a Panasonic KX-TG6524EB DECT Quad Digital phone set (which has the old POTS plug).

I have an FTTP fibre connection from Openreach with a BT Smart Hub 2 and a BT Digital Voice Adapter which has a POTS socket (and presumably this provides the 48V on-hook DC supply)

I have also got a VOIP connection using a Grandstream HT802 Analog Telephone Adaptor. I can connect the Panasonic phone set to this using an RJ11 cable in place of the POTS cable - presumably this also provides a 48V DC on-hook supply.

Hope that helps

newlyretired

[XFool]

The current POTS relies on a DC supply, 48v On-Hook, to the consumer landline.

Does anyone know, when the old analogue 'last mile' service is turned off, will the DC line voltage disappear with it?

I have an FTTP fibre connection from Openreach with a BT Smart Hub 2 and a BT Digital Voice Adapter which has a POTS socket (and presumably this provides the 48V on-hook DC supply)

Thanks. I have a Plusnet Hub 2 with a "Phone port" currently covered by a peel off label: "Digital voice customers only"
I assume the Digital Voice Adaptor goes in there?

Actually, my reason for asking is less to do with VOIP itself and more to do with the likely(?) absence of the 48vdc on the ordinary copper landline/broadband lines. I have some reason for wondering if the absence of this voltage might increase the reliability of my existing phone/FTTC landline.

[Stompa]

The current POTS relies on a DC supply, 48v On-Hook, to the consumer landline.

Does anyone know, when the old analogue 'last mile' service is turned off, will the DC line voltage disappear with it?

I have an FTTP fibre connection from Openreach with a BT Smart Hub 2 and a BT Digital Voice Adapter which has a POTS socket (and presumably this provides the 48V on-hook DC supply)

Thanks. I have a Plusnet Hub 2 with a "Phone port" currently covered by a peel off label: "Digital voice customers only"
I assume the Digital Voice Adaptor goes in there?

No, AIUI you can either plug your phone into the socket on the hub, or (if that's in an inconvenient location) use the Digital Voice Adaptor to plug it in in another room.

https://www.bt.com/help/user-guides/pho ... ce-adapter

[XFool]

So, to summarise -

Have Broadband:
Plug DECT phone into router
Plug DECT phone into Digital Voice Adaptor - which connects to router via Wi-Fi

No Broadband:
Plug DECT phone into BT specialised modem device plugged into landline
Does this modem also work with Digital Voice Adaptors?
Does this modem also work with non DECT phones?

Interesting question, would the BT specialised modem device need mains power, or will it be powered via line current?

However, I am still mainly interested in the status of any line voltage on copper landlines after POTS switch off. Anyone know about this?

TIA

[XFool]

So, to summarise -

Have Broadband:
Plug DECT phone into router
Plug DECT phone into Digital Voice Adaptor - which connects to router via Wi-Fi

Looking at that leaflet for the BT Digital Voice Adaptor:

Connect a home phone
Plug your home phone’s existing telephone line cord into the socket on the top of the Digital Voice Adapter.
Your phone will now have the same dial tone as when it was plugged into your old wall socket.

The landline phone illustrated has a wired handset and the use of a DECT phone is not mentioned. So that answers at least one question above.

Presumably the same thing applies to the BT specialised modem device for none-Broadband users. I can't imagine now how it would matter if a handset was DECT on non DECT, though it may need to be a 'modern' electronic handset, not an original, old, non-electronic handset.

[gryffron]

However, I am still mainly interested in the status of any line voltage on copper landlines after POTS switch off. Anyone know about this?

I don't know, but...

The point here is to retire the copper wires - completely. IDSN and ADSL are going too. So I would expect they will be COMPLETELY disconnected once your exchange switches to fibre. i.e. No line voltage.

There is no line current for/from fibre connections. So power can only come from a wall socket. Traditional POTS are way too power hungry to run off batteries. They need a lot of juice, especially to ring. Ring voltage REALLY hurts. I know this from experience playing with an old stepper relay system on the Talyllyn Railway. It is likely modern electronics such as the replacement socket on this new BT kit will provide too little power to ring a standalone POTS, hence why they are talking about DECT, which are invariably independently powered rather than socket powered.

[edit in response to previous post]

"If your home phone is more than 10 years old, there’s a chance that it might be incompatible with the Digital Voice Adapter"

So I'm still thinking it will struggle with anything that has a REN >=1, and maybe even only a fraction of 1.
Modern electronic phones either have electronic warblers or independent power supplies, so REN << 1.
[/edit]

Gryff

[XFool]

However, I am still mainly interested in the status of any line voltage on copper landlines after POTS switch off. Anyone know about this?

I don't know, but...

The point here is to retire the copper wires - completely. IDSN and ADSL are going too. So I would expect they will be COMPLETELY disconnected once your exchange switches to fibre. i.e. No line voltage.

No. This is not the case.

Obviously, eventually - in the fullness of time - this will happen, but not on the date of the cessation of POTS. All the copper in place will remain in place. These are effectively two unrelated matters. Cessation of the POTS is not itself dependant on whether the customer has fibre or copper lines, or even Broadband. The exact technical methods used at the customer's premises will depend on some of these things - mainly on whether they do or do not have Broadband.

[XFool]

[edit in response to previous post]

"If your home phone is more than 10 years old, there’s a chance that it might be incompatible with the Digital Voice Adapter"

So I'm still thinking it will struggle with anything that has a REN >=1, and maybe even only a fraction of 1.
Modern electronic phones either have electronic warblers or independent power supplies, so REN << 1.
[/edit]

Yes. I'm thinking the irrelevant "DECT phone" non-issue may have come about because I read someone somewhere using the word "DECT" as a proxy for a 'modern' electronic handset - which can be DECT or non DECT.

Q. Was the introduction of DECT phones in the UK hastened as a side effect of the 'Charles & Camilla tapes' ?

[XFool]

[edit in response to previous post]

"If your home phone is more than 10 years old, there’s a chance that it might be incompatible with the Digital Voice Adapter"

So I'm still thinking it will struggle with anything that has a REN >=1, and maybe even only a fraction of 1.
Modern electronic phones either have electronic warblers or independent power supplies, so REN << 1.
[/edit]

Maybe. I'm not sure the REN thing should matter, that was more a matter of total loading on the original phoneline sockets. But it occurs to me it could be something else. Modern phones don't require an external ringing capacitor, old phones did. This means that the third Bell Wire to extension sockets is not now needed. I still have available an old (more than 10 years), but electronic, handset that needs an external ringing capacitor to ring - it has a Mercury button and a Tone/Pulse Dial switch! This has caused some confusion in the past, testing other people's phone lines with it, and is why I have more than one 'master socket'.

I think BT may just mean your existing phone needs to work without an external ringing capacitor to use it with the Digital Voice Adaptor.

[ReformedCharacter]

Yes. I'm thinking the irrelevant "DECT phone" non-issue may have come about because I read someone somewhere using the word "DECT" as a proxy for a 'modern' electronic handset - which can be DECT or non DECT.

Q. Was the introduction of DECT phones in the UK hastened as a side effect of the 'Charles & Camilla tapes' ?

Isn't DECT mainly used for cordless 'local' phones? Whereas IIRC, C&C were recorded from earlier, less secure mobile telephones. I might be wrong though.

RC

[XFool]

Q. Was the introduction of DECT phones in the UK hastened as a side effect of the 'Charles & Camilla tapes' ?

Isn't DECT mainly used for cordless 'local' phones? Whereas IIRC, C&C were recorded from earlier, less secure mobile telephones. I might be wrong though.

I think that recording was made from an old, non DECT cordless phone. These just used analogue modulation (AM or FM?) and were easy to bug. Despite all the rubbish in the papers at the time: "Could only MI5 be behind this?"

But of course, they likely had their reasons! Later... when I got my mobile phone - of course I read the little manual from cover to cover and tried everything out, including voicemail pick-up. Then I thought: "But surely anyone could do that?" And so changed my default PIN.

"Anybody" could, if they knew about it. The celebrities etc, didn't and so didn't change their default PIN. That's why The News of the World is no more.

[kiloran]

This delay in the changeover was announced in March 2022 but I've only just happened upon it

https://newsroom.bt.com/were-pausing-ou ... t-rollout/

--kiloran

[XFool]

This sounds like a big infrastructure change, in just over 3 year's time: https://business.bt.com/insights/digita ... witch-off/

All phones will then be VOIP over the internet.

It's getting nearer!

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme/stopsell-updates

One noteworthy thing in the 'WLR Withdrawal programme' section of that 'Stop Sell' link are these words from BT/Openreach:

"Consideration will also be given to investment policies in the copper network which could include VDSL cabinet capacity and repairs of the copper network"

Um...

And 'Stop Sell' applies to all national WLR services (PTSN, FTTC, ISDN...) from 5 September 2023. So it's likely down all the way from then for copper.

One issue I have now run into is I am with Plusnet, on FTTC. Plusnet will not be supplying voice services over FTTP, so it currently looks like either: lose landline phone or transfer to other ISP to keep phone and number thereby closing Plusnet account, therefore losing Plusnet Email account. We shall see...

Better get cracking!

[XFool]

More information and a timeline, here:

How do we move smoothly onto the digital network?

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme/wlr-withdrawal

[Tedx]

This sounds like a big infrastructure change, in just over 3 year's time: https://business.bt.com/insights/digita ... witch-off/

All phones will then be VOIP over the internet.

It's getting nearer!

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme/stopsell-updates

One noteworthy thing in the 'WLR Withdrawal programme' section of that 'Stop Sell' link are these words from BT/Openreach:

"Consideration will also be given to investment policies in the copper network which could include VDSL cabinet capacity and repairs of the copper network"

Um...

And 'Stop Sell' applies to all national WLR services (PTSN, FTTC, ISDN...) from 5 September 2023. So it's likely down all the way from then for copper.

One issue I have now run into is I am with Plusnet, on FTTC. Plusnet will not be supplying voice services over FTTP, so it currently looks like either: lose landline phone or transfer to other ISP to keep phone and number thereby closing Plusnet account, therefore losing Plusnet Email account. We shall see...

Better get cracking!

I'm with Plusnet for phone the line and on 26mb fibre to the cabinet. We made the careful decision to go for their 300mb full fibre jobbie. This means binning the landline....but since the phone line is kinda like the post these days in that all that ever comes into the house is junk we concluded it was no great loss.

So for the first time in over half a century, their will be no landline.

[elkay]

One issue I have now run into is I am with Plusnet, on FTTC. Plusnet will not be supplying voice services over FTTP, so it currently looks like either: lose landline phone or transfer to other ISP to keep phone and number thereby closing Plusnet account, therefore losing Plusnet Email account. We shall see...

It's not an either/or situation. I moved house recently, and was unable to stay with Virgin Media. I chose to transfer my landline phone number to a VOIP provider (I selected Vonage, others are available). This means that I can shop around for deals with any broadband provider, including Plusnet, and not worry about transferring my landline number each time.

This is a bit like the email provider scenario. Many here will recommend separating their email accounts from their ISP. I would suggest the same advice should apply to landlines (for those that need them).