UK analogue landlines to end in 2025

[Infrasonic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaOAG3-1fZU

New Starlink Beta info just arrived in an email yesterday - let's take a look at what's new with Starlink!

Elon Musk keynote video: https://www.mobileworldlive.com/on-st...

Some more Starlink info here from a US based IT pro user. Apparently they are looking at using lasers between satellites to cut down on ground station backhaul reliance (space mesh...) - and Elon is in talks with some of the big mobile networks to offer them Starlink satellite based backhaul for 5G in remote areas - which would also offer some useful redundancy wrt my catastrophic flood concern taking out fibre backhaul.

[rhialto]

One solution to being in a not-spot is to use Wi-fi calling as offered by EE. Not sure how fast your broadband has to be, but it works very well.

TJH

What use is that if your internet connection may as well be provided by smoke signals or a piece of wet spaghetti?

[tjh290633]

One solution to being in a not-spot is to use Wi-fi calling as offered by EE. Not sure how fast your broadband has to be, but it works very well.

TJH

What use is that if your internet connection may as well be provided by smoke signals or a piece of wet spaghetti?

You probably need a better blanket to send your smoke signals:-)

TJH

[pje16]

Let's go back to tin cans and string

[Infrasonic]

One solution to being in a not-spot is to use Wi-fi calling as offered by EE. Not sure how fast your broadband has to be, but it works very well.

TJH

What use is that if your internet connection may as well be provided by smoke signals or a piece of wet spaghetti?

You probably need a better blanket to send your smoke signals:-)

TJH

You can get automated smoke signallers now that work over the internet...

[Julian]

Thanks - but that's another world away from the kind of "need enough to support a phone" kind of provisioning. Assuming it's the usual 1:1 ratio of pricing as it crosses the Atlantic (VAT covers most of the exchange rate difference) then you're looking at maybe £700 installation and £100/month for 300Mbps unlimited. Which is great, and would suit hotels etc, but is frankly more than most people need, certainly if they are used to next to nothing at the moment. The real requirement is for something that can get 10-20Mbps to everybody, at a price that everyone can afford.

The microwave service I experienced is this mob :
https://www.highlandwireless.co.uk/plans/

£35 inc VAT for 50Mbps unlimited and £200 installation fee - and we were certainly getting in the low 40s. Through a combination of those kinds of schemes and improving 4G coverage (which I see is now quite good on one network nearby), I'm not sure how much demand there will be for the premium stuff outside hotels and the odd super-rich landowner.

If things go as planned Starlink won't be the only game in town, there will be a UK alternative too. In July last year the UK government invested $500 million to buy a 45% stake in OneWeb (https://www.engadget.com/uk-oneweb-sate ... 05051.html). The other major stake holder is Indian telecoms company Bharti that also invested $500m presumably for another 45%. Despite not being the majority owner I did read in some reports that the UK has something similar to a golden share in that it can vet and potentially veto changes in investors and can also vet and veto customers allowed to use the network.

The reporting at the time focussed a fair amount on the possibility of using the OneWeb constellation to host a sovereign UK GPS solution since at the time there was much Brexit furore over the UK being ejected from the EU Galileo GPS project. Even if that doesn't happen (and there are challenges with hosting a GPS system in low Earth orbit) OneWeb already has satellites up, is growing the constellation most recently by another 34 satellites this weekend (https://www.space.com/arianespace-sozyu ... te-mission), and demonstrated a working connection back in 2019 (https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... -new-test/).

I suspect the UK government might well need to inject additional funding to build out the constellation to the initial target size but with the sort of money being talked about to get broadband to all UK communities, e.g. - "In December 2020, the Government announced £5 billion of funding to support the roll-out of gigabit capable broadband in ‘the hardest to reach 20% of the country’" [ Source: https://www.rsnonline.org.uk/are-rural- ... gh-the-net ] - another billion dollars or so into OneWeb might deliver more bang for the buck. Based on those early OneWeb demos it probably wouldn't deliver gigabit levels but certainly enough for anyone to be able to video conference etc and definitely enough to host very limited bandwidth "need enough to support a phone" connections. Also I suspect the MoD might get tapped for some part of the additional funding if required since the utility to the UK military and intelligence communities of a fully functioning global UK-controlled network would be immense.

A lot of initial reporting was branding the investment crazy, partly because of the technical uncertainty of it being a viable replacement for Galileo but also perhaps because of the rumours that it was a Dominic Cummings project, but if one just looks at the potential as an alternative to Starlink to fill in rural broadband not-spots, offer another alternative for basic phone replacement when the copper network goes away, and the possible military and intelligence uses, and the ability to use it as part of the UK's foreign aid and humanitarian initiatives by offering free or heavily subsidised connections in poorer countries or disaster areas, I think it might end up being quite a good move provided that the broadband technology works as expected regardless of whether a LEO GPS system is ever also able to be implemented.

- Julian

[Hallucigenia]

Personally having seen what the current state of the art is even in a properly remote area - the kind where even A roads are single-track, I really don't see a big role for satellite in the UK, it's just come too late. Other systems like microwave or 4G can give that "ordinary" ADSL2 kind of performance which is good enough for most consumer use if we're talking about reaching that last 5-10%. The high-capacity stuff will have a niche in the UK, but that's all.

It's worth noting what's happening with other technologies - BT Labs have got various technologies for speeding up the last mile to people's houses, they seem to be proposing a mix of better ways of passing data down copper, and last-mile wireless, effectively putting a high-speed mobile transmitter on the telegraph pole. Hence the EE deal.

And just improving the mobile network will help a lot - there's currently a £1bn plan (half paid by government) to extend what's called the Shared Rural Network to give 4G 95% geographical coverage of the UK (at least 98% in England) by 2025. It will particularly help the Highlands (26% to 68% coverage by all 4 operators, 73% to 91% by at least one operator) and mid Wales (51% to 78% all four, 86% to 97% at least one), but it will knock out a lot of not-spots even in England, particularly in National Parks.

[UncleEbenezer]

If things go as planned Starlink won't be the only game in town, there will be a UK alternative too. In July last year the UK government invested $500 million to buy a 45% stake in OneWeb (https://www.engadget.com/uk-oneweb-sate ... 05051.html).

Just goes to show, they won't learn the lessons of history.

Remember ICL? Britain's "me-too" to the mainframe era - we just had to have a national champion to become a sick joke. We used to think Thatcher had killed off that kind of socialist big-government planning.

[jackdaww]

It's worth noting what's happening with other technologies - BT Labs have got various technologies for speeding up the last mile to people's houses, they seem to be proposing a mix of better ways of passing data down copper, and last-mile wireless, effectively putting a high-speed mobile transmitter on the telegraph pole. Hence the EE deal.

==============================

my provider ZEN have sent me a email re 2025 .

even as a retired electronics/telecomms engineer and computer programmer , i find their info incomprehensible .

i suspect they are just trying to nudge me towards a dearer package in the meanwhile .

my line comes from a cabinet about 30 yards away by overhead wire .

this idea of a wifi transmitter above the cabinets sounds simple and sensible.

[Hallucigenia]

my provider ZEN have sent me a email re 2025 ....

my line comes from a cabinet about 30 yards away by overhead wire .

this idea of a wifi transmitter above the cabinets sounds simple and sensible.

Well if you're that close to the cabinet then you've got nothing to worry about, there will no problem getting the (fairly small) bandwidth needed to support the switch from POTS to VoIP. If you've already got "broadband" then at most all that might be needed is a new socket to put your existing phone into (or potentially your existing router will already have a phone socket on the back?)

Most of this thread has been talking about how to get a phone service to people who *don't* currently have any kind of data service.

[scrumpyjack]

my provider ZEN have sent me a email re 2025 ....

my line comes from a cabinet about 30 yards away by overhead wire .

this idea of a wifi transmitter above the cabinets sounds simple and sensible.

Well if you're that close to the cabinet then you've got nothing to worry about, there will no problem getting the (fairly small) bandwidth needed to support the switch from POTS to VoIP. If you've already got "broadband" then at most all that might be needed is a new socket to put your existing phone into (or potentially your existing router will already have a phone socket on the back?)

Most of this thread has been talking about how to get a phone service to people who *don't* currently have any kind of data service.

With Zen, you just go for their Digital Voice service at £7 a month, including 1000 mins of calls, answerphone etc. You simply plug your phone into their Fritzbox router. I am getting this at the moment and already have a Grandstream digital phone box (cost £40) which lets me plug an ordinary landline phone into it, with a self selected landline number to go with it (using sipgate.com).

[Avantegarde]

I am failing to understand something here and seek enlightenment. Is BT proposing to rip out every piece of copper wire in its exchanges, green junction boxes, under-pavement ducts, telegraph poles, overhead wires and homes, offices, factories etc the length and breadth of the land? That cannot be the case, as its broadband service (and that of the many ISPs which re-sell the BT "package") relies, at least for the proverbial "last mile", on precisely those old fashioned copper cables and wires to get your internet service into your house. So what is happening behind the scenes at the exchanges? Digital equipment there was installed long before the internet was an idea, back in the 1980s under the System X programme (and what a fantastic improvement it made) as it replaced the old electro-mechanical Strowger equipment. Is BT simply planning to route landline phone calls along all that internet equipment that now fills up the exchanges and junction boxes?

[AF62]

I am failing to understand something here and seek enlightenment. Is BT proposing to rip out every piece of copper wire in its exchanges, green junction boxes, under-pavement ducts, telegraph poles, overhead wires and homes, offices, factories etc the length and breadth of the land? That cannot be the case, as its broadband service (and that of the many ISPs which re-sell the BT "package") relies, at least for the proverbial "last mile", on precisely those old fashioned copper cables and wires to get your internet service into your house. So what is happening behind the scenes at the exchanges? Digital equipment there was installed long before the internet was an idea, back in the 1980s under the System X programme (and what a fantastic improvement it made) as it replaced the old electro-mechanical Strowger equipment. Is BT simply planning to route landline phone calls along all that internet equipment that now fills up the exchanges and junction boxes?

The copper wire is staying, although in time it will be upgraded to fibre in many places. What is changing is they are removing the Plain Old Telephone System (POTS) that allows you to make phone calls. The copper (or fibre) will only be carrying broadband into peoples homes. If people want to make phone calls they will need to do so using VOIP by plugging their phone into the broadband router.

For those who don’t want broadband but just a phone line, they will be provided with a very low bandwidth broadband service and a VOIP connection box for their phone.

[Infrasonic]

https://www.gsma.com/futurenetworks/wik ... -overview/

Mobile Backhaul: An Overview
Last updated: June 19, 2019
View Case Studies

1. Introduction
What is Mobile Backhaul?
Mobile backhaul refers to the transport network that connects the core network and the RAN (Radio Access Network) of the mobile network. Recently, the introduction of small cells has given rise to the concept of fronthaul, which is a transport network that connects the macrocell to the small cells. Whilst mobile backhaul and fronthaul are different concept, the term mobile backhaul is generally used to encompass both concepts. Furthermore, innovations to reduce demand on mobile backhaul sometimes involve architectural changes in the antenna (also referred to as radio unit in 4G) and the controller (also referred to as digital unit in 4G). Therefore, the components labelled in red in the figure below will be covered for backhaul demand case studies within the GSMA Future Networks Network Economics...Cont

Discusses all the variables - Copper / Fibre / Microwave / Satellite / LOS NLOS et al.

[Infrasonic]

https://x.company/blog/posts/taara-beam ... oss-congo/

Beaming broadband across the Congo River
Taara’s wireless optical communications links are now beaming light-speed connectivity from Brazzaville to Kinshasa across the Congo River

Cont.

[scrumpyjack]

I am failing to understand something here and seek enlightenment. Is BT proposing to rip out every piece of copper wire in its exchanges, green junction boxes, under-pavement ducts, telegraph poles, overhead wires and homes, offices, factories etc the length and breadth of the land? That cannot be the case, as its broadband service (and that of the many ISPs which re-sell the BT "package") relies, at least for the proverbial "last mile", on precisely those old fashioned copper cables and wires to get your internet service into your house. So what is happening behind the scenes at the exchanges? Digital equipment there was installed long before the internet was an idea, back in the 1980s under the System X programme (and what a fantastic improvement it made) as it replaced the old electro-mechanical Strowger equipment. Is BT simply planning to route landline phone calls along all that internet equipment that now fills up the exchanges and junction boxes?

The copper wire is staying, although in time it will be upgraded to fibre in many places. What is changing is they are removing the Plain Old Telephone System (POTS) that allows you to make phone calls. The copper (or fibre) will only be carrying broadband into peoples homes. If people want to make phone calls they will need to do so using VOIP by plugging their phone into the broadband router.

For those who don’t want broadband but just a phone line, they will be provided with a very low bandwidth broadband service and a VOIP connection box for their phone.

I'm getting rid of my two landlines this month. The one used for the fire/burglar alarm is being replaced by a small unit they put in the alarm system box that makes calls to the central station by mobile (any service). There is no running cost for me but a one off cost for the box of £105. That saves one landline cost. Our main landline is being replaced with Zen's 'Digital Voice' service over our FTTP connection. Cost £7 a month including 1,000 mins of calls, answer phone etc etc and uses our existing telephones. This will save about £300 per annum.

[doug2500]

Sorry to digress but.................

How can you get a voip if you're not with zen? I've looked into it but can't quite make sense of it.

Thanks in advance.

[pje16]

VOIP phones should work with any router
We had one at home, for a while, over 10 years ago
re-routed calls from an office in Hatton Garden to home
My Mrs spent most of her time trying to explain (mainly to the older generation of local traders) who rang her, that they couldn't pop in to see her as they normally did, because she wasn't in the office - they didn't understand as they had rung the office number

[ReformedCharacter]

Sorry to digress but.................

How can you get a voip if you're not with zen? I've looked into it but can't quite make sense of it.

Thanks in advance.

https://www.sipgate.co.uk/

(satisfied customer)

RC

[Midsmartin]

I use Https://voipfone.co.uk for my work phone number. Also very good, with no complaints over 10 years. I imagine it's similar to sipgate but might be worth comparing side by side.