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Boiler efficiency

Does what it says on the tin
BullDog
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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461592

Postby BullDog » November 28th, 2021, 12:49 pm

quelquod wrote:“ Actually there is a third possibility. 80% methane and 20% hydrogen could work according to my friend. Something to do with the relative vapour pressures of the two gasses being the same ratio but inversed. Now the gas engineers will know about this and will have told the politicians that a 80/20 mix of methane/hydrogen can probably be made to work in the public network, so maybe this is the 'hydrogen solution' they are actually working towards and the 80/20 bit gets lost when politicians talk about it. But I don't know for sure.”

But mains gas is already somewhere north of 90% methane so this sounds a fairly minimal improvement on emissions, together with the anticipated pollution from hydrogen production itself. (And there are no asses in gases ;) ).

I said much the same too. I can envisage a hydrogen blend being introduced. With a few caveats to be overcome.

Parky
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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461620

Postby Parky » November 28th, 2021, 2:54 pm

In addition to the technical issues, of which there are many, there are serious economic issues which politicians are unlikely to be able to gloss over in the way that they have with the science and engineering challenges. There are many assessments available on-line with many different ways of calulating the costs involved. Without spending hours reviewing these, I picked one from an organisation called the Global Warming Policy Forum which indicated that it would cost five times as much to heat a home with green hydrogen than with natural gas. Economically it's a non-starter. (For interest they estimate the fuel cost of generating power with hydrogen to be 20 times that for natural gas, and the fuel cost for transport is twice that of petrol, ignoring taxes.)
Disclosure - I am a chemical engineer.

kiloran
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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461623

Postby kiloran » November 28th, 2021, 3:03 pm

staffordian wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
staffordian wrote:
The other thing which pizzles me is why the likes of Worcester Bosch are working on hydrogen powered boilers. It seems the only way they might work if a piped network is not possible is if users had a tank such as propane (or is it butane?) users currently do.


Me too, I'm pizzled too.



:oops:

Note to self.

Poof reed my pists a bet butter

Maybe he really did mean pizzled: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzle
:o

--kiloran

BullDog
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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461652

Postby BullDog » November 28th, 2021, 5:43 pm

Parky wrote:In addition to the technical issues, of which there are many, there are serious economic issues which politicians are unlikely to be able to gloss over in the way that they have with the science and engineering challenges. There are many assessments available on-line with many different ways of calulating the costs involved. Without spending hours reviewing these, I picked one from an organisation called the Global Warming Policy Forum which indicated that it would cost five times as much to heat a home with green hydrogen than with natural gas. Economically it's a non-starter. (For interest they estimate the fuel cost of generating power with hydrogen to be 20 times that for natural gas, and the fuel cost for transport is twice that of petrol, ignoring taxes.)
Disclosure - I am a chemical engineer.

Indeed, (on earth) hydrogen, being energy storage medium rather than a source of primary energy, it could only be viable for short term peak lopping power generation. Given the two main routes to green/blue hydrogen involve processing of hydrocarbon with carbon capture or electrolysis, then the idea of thermal power generation from burning hydrogen is frankly, laughable.

Mike4
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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461678

Postby Mike4 » November 28th, 2021, 7:23 pm

BullDog wrote:
Parky wrote:In addition to the technical issues, of which there are many, there are serious economic issues which politicians are unlikely to be able to gloss over in the way that they have with the science and engineering challenges. There are many assessments available on-line with many different ways of calulating the costs involved. Without spending hours reviewing these, I picked one from an organisation called the Global Warming Policy Forum which indicated that it would cost five times as much to heat a home with green hydrogen than with natural gas. Economically it's a non-starter. (For interest they estimate the fuel cost of generating power with hydrogen to be 20 times that for natural gas, and the fuel cost for transport is twice that of petrol, ignoring taxes.)
Disclosure - I am a chemical engineer.

Indeed, (on earth) hydrogen, being energy storage medium rather than a source of primary energy, it could only be viable for short term peak lopping power generation. Given the two main routes to green/blue hydrogen involve processing of hydrocarbon with carbon capture or electrolysis, then the idea of thermal power generation from burning hydrogen is frankly, laughable.


And even then, I suspect those gigantic batteries we heard about in Aus a while back, will turn out to be better at the peak lopping than the inherent complexity of doing it with hydrogen. And never mind lithium, old fashioned lead acid lends itself quite well to the task I suspect.

BullDog
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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461698

Postby BullDog » November 28th, 2021, 9:01 pm

Mike4 wrote:
BullDog wrote:
Parky wrote:In addition to the technical issues, of which there are many, there are serious economic issues which politicians are unlikely to be able to gloss over in the way that they have with the science and engineering challenges. There are many assessments available on-line with many different ways of calulating the costs involved. Without spending hours reviewing these, I picked one from an organisation called the Global Warming Policy Forum which indicated that it would cost five times as much to heat a home with green hydrogen than with natural gas. Economically it's a non-starter. (For interest they estimate the fuel cost of generating power with hydrogen to be 20 times that for natural gas, and the fuel cost for transport is twice that of petrol, ignoring taxes.)
Disclosure - I am a chemical engineer.

Indeed, (on earth) hydrogen, being energy storage medium rather than a source of primary energy, it could only be viable for short term peak lopping power generation. Given the two main routes to green/blue hydrogen involve processing of hydrocarbon with carbon capture or electrolysis, then the idea of thermal power generation from burning hydrogen is frankly, laughable.


And even then, I suspect those gigantic batteries we heard about in Aus a while back, will turn out to be better at the peak lopping than the inherent complexity of doing it with hydrogen. And never mind lithium, old fashioned lead acid lends itself quite well to the task I suspect.

Fully agree with you. Generating hydrogen from electricity to compress and store the gas and then burn it later to make electricity is just plain nuts. Cut out the middleman and just store the electricity for later use. Either in batteries, pumped storage hydro or choose one of multiple emerging storage technologies. (Liquid air storage or compressed air energy storage and lots of others out there).

88V8
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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461771

Postby 88V8 » November 29th, 2021, 10:38 am

See also the Lemon Hydrogen board... there has been a trial of 80/20 https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=436414#p436414 which presumably was deemed a success.
Where we get the hydrogen from, is another matter.

V8

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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461774

Postby tjh290633 » November 29th, 2021, 10:47 am

88V8 wrote:See also the Lemon Hydrogen board... there has been a trial of 80/20 https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=436414#p436414 which presumably was deemed a success.
Where we get the hydrogen from, is another matter.

V8

We used to use 50% hydrogen before the conversion to natural gas. Most of the other 50% was carbon monoxide, plus some higher hydrocarbons.

TJH

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Re: Boiler efficiency

#461797

Postby Hallucigenia » November 29th, 2021, 11:50 am

Might I gently suggest this thread has gone rather off-topic, and that rather than have a hundred threads all talking about similar general issues about hydrogen, it would be better to concentrate discussion on the main hydrogen thread linked above?

And rather than speculate about possible hydrogen blends etc, I suggest those interested read HMG's official hydrogen strategy, which will take a decision on hydrogen blends in 2023 and 100% hydrogen in 2026. Methane/hydrogen blends are nothing new, they've been kicking around for 10+ years in - gasp - other countries.

As an aside, the current gas network :
There are about 91,000km of remaining iron mains within 30m of buildings (’at risk’ mains) which may give rise to a risk to people. The majority of these - some 78,000km - are cast iron mains, the remaining 13,000km being low pressure ductile iron mains...Iron pipes make up slightly less than 50% of the Transco network, the remainder being made of polyethylene or steel. Most of the iron pipes are over 40 years old; some are more than 100 years old...Since 1977 there has been a targeted programme of replacing these ’at risk’ mains. Over this period 61,000 km have been replaced with a highest annual rate of replacement of 3,300 km/year. Over the past 5 years the average rate of replacement necessary to achieve the agreed safety outputs was 1,840 km/year and at this rate it would take a further 51 years to replace all of the ’at risk’ metal mains.

Dodds & McDowal were sketching out the future of UK gas networks back in 2013 :
The UK Climate Change Act 2008 requires the UK government to reduce UK greenhouse gas emissions in 2050 by 80% relative to 1990 levels (HM Parliament, 2008). Studies of UK decarbonisation pathways to meet this target, underpinned by the UK MARKAL energy systems model, have invariably suggested that the low-pressure gas pipeline network should be mostly decommissioned by 2050, with heating provided by either electric heat pumps or biomass boilers (e.g. Hawkes et al., 2011, Kesicki, 2012). Since the gas network currently supplies around 22.9 million customers (DECC, 2011b), including 84% of homes, this represents a profound change to the UK energy system.

One of the big problems is what happens to the gas network should it no longer be needed - a lot of it is 45-year regulated assets, does the government buy out those assets?

The other big one that has been touched on is where does the hydrogen come from. There are some industries such as the chemical industry where hydrogen is their only route to decarbonisation, and as such they will consume all the hydrogen available for at least a decade. Home heating has other options, albeit things like heat pump technology ain't great at the moment.


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