Heating a (holiday) home with electricity

[Clariman]

We have 2 holiday cottages in an area that has no gas and neither has room for an oil tank. I asked about one of them here about 18 months ago but asked a specific question about replacing storage heaters with under floor heating.

My question this time is about the more modern property which has a central heating system powered by an electric boiler (Heatrae Sadia Electromax). It takes ages to hear the radiators and costs a fortune. We arrived on Sunday to find that guests had set the heat up to 27 degrees and the management company hadn't reset it!

I'm going to install a Hive thermostat so I can set it remotely. However I would consider replacing the whole system if there are better electrical heating options out there that are programmable. Any suggestions?

I see Fischer Future Heat advertising a lot. Are they any good and what is their solution?

Thanks

[dspp]

Clariman,

You will know that I have many times advised against any electric heat in holiday cottages. Renters crank it to full, open the windows, and laugh all the way to the pub - if they think about it at all.

Fisher are a marketing con imho. Pressure selling to people like you, and the elderly. Ugh.

1. A remote thermostat is a good move.
2. You might want to consider installing solar PV. About 4kW of panels is likely to be a reasonable match. BUT you have until 31 March 2019 before the FIT scheme ends so move fast. See http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/ren ... ed-tariffs .
3. Longer term you might want to consider moving to an air source heat pump (ASHP) but I would do 1 and 2 first.

regards, dspp

[wilbobob]

Clariman
That's a good question and I'm looking forward to seeing useful advice.
A friend has the same problem. She has a holiday home that has individually programmable radiators which will make a good job of controlling the heating provided the renters leave them alone. That's something that they seem totally unable to do, the lure of some buttons and a digital display is too strong, and their ability to read the manual completely non-existent
One part of a solution to the problem might be a central thermostat over-riding all the others but that would need a lot of fiddling to integrate it into the individual heaters.
Perhaps a large thermostat located somewhere highly visible with no connection at all to the system might satisfy the need to fiddle while the real thermostat carries on regardless.

[Howard]

Clariman

Mrs H and I have rented a number of cottages over the years so I can give you a view as a renter.

We have the idea when booking a cottage out of the summer season that it will be snug and warm. This may be totally unrealistic, but sitting in our well-insulated home with gas central heating we envisage coming back from a walk to a lovely warm home in the country. Generally brochures and adverts for cottages encourage the view that they are warm and cosy. And whilst our home-life includes lots of activities which keep us active and warm, when we go away we spend a lot of time just sitting around because there is less to do. Looking back, there was one cottage which delivered the dream. It had a huge log-burning stove in the sitting room and an electric aga in the kitchen. I happily paid extra for logs and never fiddled with the Aga because it generated so much heat. But I realised it must have cost a fortune to run.

The other type of cottages we have rented had electric convector heaters or storage heaters. Generally they appeared to have low standards of insulation. Probably not the one foot thick roof insulation and cavity wall insulation of home. On arrival the holiday homes generally felt cold and so we immediately put the heating up. I fully admit to ignoring instructions in order to have a reasonably warm environment during the evenings. But I always turned the heating back down when we left.

So addressing your question. If it were me, I'd think carefully about how long I intended to own the cottages and the capital cost of heating improvements. Given that renters want a warm environment when the weather is cold there is a choice between the capital cost of improving the insulation and installing an expensive heating solution or the revenue cost of paying higher energy bills. It is a fact that electric heating is eye-wateringly expensive to run.

As renters, we went back several times to the Dartmoor cottage with the Aga and wood-burning stove. Paying a few thousand pounds to do so. We haven't returned to any of the "cold" cottages.

So the idea of keeping the cottages colder than your customers would like doesn't seem a good one to me. And playing games with them by providing a dummy thermostat isn't good business practice.

It would seem to me that investing in good cleaners who check the heating is set correctly would be worthwhile.

Hope these views are helpful.

regards

Howard

[staffordian]

It sounds like the pragmatic solution is to assume the worst case scenario with regard to the bills and set the rental according.

[dspp]

It sounds like the pragmatic solution is to assume the worst case scenario with regard to the bills and set the rental according.

My experience (of my GF running holiday lets) is that if you do this you will not have a viable letting property outside the summer months. You have no idea how keen some renters are on heating the whole planet to 25C using your heat through open windows !!! Penalising all renters with this will deter everybody. It simply is something to factor in when deciding whether to offer a property through the winter. The most you can do is to set an average that accounts for some population stupidity.

The point that is made by Howard about increasing insulation, is well made, and is quite correct.

regards, dspp

[Slarti]

Clariman
That's a good question and I'm looking forward to seeing useful advice.
A friend has the same problem. She has a holiday home that has individually programmable radiators which will make a good job of controlling the heating provided the renters leave them alone. That's something that they seem totally unable to do, the lure of some buttons and a digital display is too strong, and their ability to read the manual completely non-existent
One part of a solution to the problem might be a central thermostat over-riding all the others but that would need a lot of fiddling to integrate it into the individual heaters.
Perhaps a large thermostat located somewhere highly visible with no connection at all to the system might satisfy the need to fiddle while the real thermostat carries on regardless.

As a regular user of holiday rental accommodation for many years, of course I don't leave the heating alone as it is nearly always set to be too hot.
If I can find a manual, I will most certainly read that, but finding one in a usable condition can often be a problem.

Edit: It is not that unusual to have a pay meter for electric, which is something that I don't mind, as long as I am told about it in advance.

Slarti

[swill453]

Occasionally the T&Cs of a rental might say "Up to X units of electricity are included, any more will be charged at cost".

Scott.

[PrincessB]

I see Fischer Future Heat advertising a lot. Are they any good and what is their solution?

If they are doing the the same as Dimplex, the energy savings come from a more precise thermostat.

IIRC the Dimplex 1Kw heater in the family bathroom has a thermostat accurate to about 0.1ºC and will turn on and off a lot in order keep the temperature steady.

An old fashioned stat, of the type you might find on a budget fan heater, will be only good to a few Centigrade. It will warm the room more than desired and not turn back on again until the room is cooler than desired. The normal response would be to set the stat higher than you might think you need in order to avoid being cold when the heater is not running.

It is more efficient but only a bit more efficient.

We have 2 holiday cottages in an area that has no gas and neither has room for an oil tank.

Have you got space for a couple of propane cylinders? If you look at larger caravans, they often have a box structure to hold a big propane cylinder - It's an expensive option, but it will be smaller than a dedicated oil tank.
You can run a proper radiatior system from a couple of these tanks and as they are upright they won't use more space than a wardrobe or very small shed. As many people seem to prefer a chilly bedroom, it offers an option of a gas fire in the living room where folk get warm before popping their thermal pajamas on for the night.

Storage heaters only work properly if the insulation of the structure is good enough to allow them to bleed heat out gently. If you've got an old place or poor insulation they are not ideal.

For a lot of money solution, you could consider a water based radiator system with the the heat provided by a big air based heat pump.

Heat pumps are air conditioners working backwards, they take the heat from the outside air and can be used to heat enough hot water to run a radiator system. The downside is complexity as well as needing bigger low temperature radiators as there's only so hot you can get the water from one of these systems. They also fail if the air outside is too cold (they grab the heat from cold air and compress it)

The upside is that they are quite cheap to run. They don't generate heat, they compress it and move it. From memory, you can get in the order of 5Kw of heating or cooling from a single 1Kw unit.

Personally I'd do this:

If it is a new property with cavity walls in a not to cold or wet part of the world, have cavity wall insulation installed - It's the best bang for the buck option.

Then replace the windows with something decent. A window is never going to be as good as a well insulated wall but decent glazing can make a big difference.

Have a roam about with a joss stick (or cigar/fag) smoke pellet etc and fill the most obvious problem areas - Check the doors, wood warps and can let a lot of cold air in.

If there's a fireplace that won't ever get used, buy a Chimsock and seal it up - Makes more of a difference that you'd expect.

I have found that some matresses are warm and others cold. If you get into a cold bed that becomes toasty warm in a few minutes, you can sleep in a cooler room than you would expect. Oddly, higher end matresses seem to be worse than cheaper ones.

HTH

B.

[csearle]

Any suggestions?

I am a big fan of air-sourced heat pumps. They are cheaper to run than 100% efficient direct electrical heating*. If you could couple one (or more) of those with a remotely controlled stat that can be reset to "normal" manually/automatically then I think you'd be happy with the solution.

Chris
* One will cost a few £K so the break even point needs to be borne in mind.

[todthedog]

Having rented few cottages in winter.
I always took a small fan heater with me as they were often unheated.
I never minded a pay as you go meter if it was not specifically mentioned as all in the price.
We have used an ASHP to heat a house in Sweden and they offer excellent 'bang for bucks'

If your cottage is being abused try a meter, card rather than cash

[EssDeeAitch]

I have recently fitted infra red panel heaters in our new extension rather than extend the conventional central heating system. Only running for a month now and yes, it is more expensive than gas central heating but it is very efficient and works very well. The panels can be wall or ceiling mounted and controlled by thermostat.

Previous comments regarding renters just cranking up the heating and opening windows are very valid but I would certainly recommend at least investigating these heaters. Calculation for wattage is room volume m3 x 40 = kW required. After much investigation I used www.warm4less.com

[csearle]

I have recently fitted infra red panel heaters in our new extension rather than extend the conventional central heating system. Only running for a month now and yes, it is more expensive than gas central heating but it is very efficient and works very well. The panels can be wall or ceiling mounted and controlled by thermostat.

I like these too. The heat radiates to you so you can really feel it. The are as efficient as any other direct electric heating as all the electrical energy is converted to heat energy, so 100% efficient. C.

[pochisoldi]

I have recently fitted infra red panel heaters in our new extension rather than extend the conventional central heating system. Only running for a month now and yes, it is more expensive than gas central heating but it is very efficient and works very well. The panels can be wall or ceiling mounted and controlled by thermostat.

Previous comments regarding renters just cranking up the heating and opening windows are very valid but I would certainly recommend at least investigating these heaters. Calculation for wattage is room volume m3 x 40 = kW required. After much investigation I used http://www.warm4less.com

Any idea how they would be if ceiling mounted in a small galley kitchen (2.2mx3m) which is currently heated by the back of the fridge freezer, the cooker and whatever leaks though the door into the house?

I'm looking to try and maintain 15-17 degC whilst unoccupied (rather than the current 12-15) - easily done with a thermostat, plus having a full whack boost when someone's actually in the room...

PochiSoldi

[EssDeeAitch]

I have recently fitted infra red panel heaters in our new extension rather than extend the conventional central heating system. Only running for a month now and yes, it is more expensive than gas central heating but it is very efficient and works very well. The panels can be wall or ceiling mounted and controlled by thermostat.

Previous comments regarding renters just cranking up the heating and opening windows are very valid but I would certainly recommend at least investigating these heaters. Calculation for wattage is room volume m3 x 40 = kW required. After much investigation I used http://www.warm4less.com

Any idea how they would be if ceiling mounted in a small galley kitchen (2.2mx3m) which is currently heated by the back of the fridge freezer, the cooker and whatever leaks though the door into the house?

I'm looking to try and maintain 15-17 degC whilst unoccupied (rather than the current 12-15) - easily done with a thermostat, plus having a full whack boost when someone's actually in the room...

PochiSoldi

You would need a 750 watt heater I think. It is a direct heat application and you can set the thermostat to come on 3 times a day for the duration and temperature that you want so the variables are infinate. Press the button to override and it defaultsto 20 (which you can then change if desired). Dont buy the cheap units where they sell the same heaters for wall and ceiling. Ceiling units have some rear insulation and are a bit more expensive.

I think it would work well in your application, we have a similar set up in our utility room

[Clariman]

1. A remote thermostat is a good move.
2. You might want to consider installing solar PV. About 4kW of panels is likely to be a reasonable match. BUT you have until 31 March 2019 before the FIT scheme ends so move fast. See http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/ren ... ed-tariffs .
3. Longer term you might want to consider moving to an air source heat pump (ASHP) but I would do 1 and 2 first.
regards, dspp

We actually have PVs on the roof but they cause a circuit to trip. We had to get rid of pigeons under the panels, so put wire netting round them. It may be that the pigeon nest or or the netting had disrupted them and causes the trips. I have had difficulty finding anyone who can look at this. I think the FIT scheme had already ended for new entrants. We missed it by a few months.

ASHPs sound interesting. Can they replace a complete wet central heating and hot water system and can they be controlled by a Hive system?

As renters, we went back several times to the Dartmoor cottage with the Aga and wood-burning stove. Paying a few thousand pounds to do so. We haven't returned to any of the "cold" cottages.

So the idea of keeping the cottages colder than your customers would like doesn't seem a good one to me. And playing games with them by providing a dummy thermostat isn't good business practice.

It would seem to me that investing in good cleaners who check the heating is set correctly would be worthwhile.

Howard - I completely agree. I wouldn't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment by making the properties too cold. Besides we use them ourselves too! Both have wood burning stoves in the living areas which do make them very cosy but takes a while to heat up the room. Guests can and do fiddle about with the central heating and our managing agent is usually good at resetting back to normal. However, I can do this remotely with a Hive system.

Slarti, Swill543 - I think that installing a meter or giving a maximum electricity usage is a retrograde step in terms of customer satisfaction.

Insulation is pretty good in both properties so I don't think that's the biggest problem.

I have recently fitted infra red panel heaters in our new extension rather than extend the conventional central heating system. Only running for a month now and yes, it is more expensive than gas central heating but it is very efficient and works very well. The panels can be wall or ceiling mounted and controlled by thermostat.

I like these too. The heat radiates to you so you can really feel it. The are as efficient as any other direct electric heating as all the electrical energy is converted to heat energy, so 100% efficient. C.

Thanks both. These sounds interesting. Can they be controlled remotely via a Hive type device? Are they organised into zones or are they all individually controlled?

Thanks all
C

[dspp]

C,

Re the PV:
- can you please send me (by PM if you want): the name/address of the MCS installer; the type & qty of PV panel; the type of inverter; the postcode. I'll make some checks. No promises but no FIT and tripping both sound wrong.

Re the ASHP:
- ordinarily you use the wet loop as the emitter side of the circuit. Sizing is important as fluid runs at a lower temp, but if your rads are ovrsized then maybe no change needed.

Re the extra charging:
- high end rental agents will not allow extra charging for gas/elec to take place. Logs yes, gas/elec, no.

It may be best to simply go with a remote thermostat as being the most cost effective.

regards, dspp