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Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

Does what it says on the tin
Gan020
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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451588

Postby Gan020 » October 20th, 2021, 12:00 pm

I've had an ASHP for 10 years. A Mitsubishi Ecodan. A massive 2 fan thing running on a 3 phase supply.

My house is 1960's and not insulated to modern standards although we've done our best. So, cavity wall, loft insulation, double glazing.

My view is that there is alot of opinions on this subject by people who do now own them or have only owned them a year and haven't learnt to live with them

I will try to be plain.

The biggest advantage is the cost. I used to have LPG and I reckon my bill is about half.

There are two things you have to recognise when owning one. 1. it puts out heat at a lower temperature so warm up times are longer so you need to plan when you want it on or just leave it on the same daily pattern regardless of the weather. 2. there is a trade-off between efficiency and cost. It is best to recognise that for 5 days a year the heat pump won't cope with temperatures below say -7c. If you want it to cope with this you would have to buy a much bigger heat pump and the pay-back calculation would fall apart. By not cope what I mean is that for those 5 days, you will have to decide what compromise you want to make. If the kids are away at Uni we just turn off the heat to their rooms completely and the temperature is fine. If we are all at home we aren't as cosy in all the rooms as we would like to be.

Noise. In normal operating conditions the noise is just background and doesn't bother us. Don't even notice it most of the time.
When it's really cold, say below freezing, the unit runs on both fans and the noise at a level where you can hear it if you decide to listen for it. It's just background though and we dont' notice it.
However, the noise on the defrost cycle when it's below freezing is noticeable. Annoying occasionally when we are in bed at 3am in the morning. Most of the time we just sleep through it. It's not actually the noise that we notice but the way it kicks in and out. So, from no noise to noise, then back to no noise.

In summary an ASHP has to be sized correctly. The issue being if you get 3 quotes the cheapest one will be the one with the smallest heat output.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451611

Postby richfool » October 20th, 2021, 12:23 pm

Gan020 wrote:I've had an ASHP for 10 years. A Mitsubishi Ecodan. A massive 2 fan thing running on a 3 phase supply.

My house is 1960's and not insulated to modern standards although we've done our best. So, cavity wall, loft insulation, double glazing.

My view is that there is alot of opinions on this subject by people who do now own them or have only owned them a year and haven't learnt to live with them

I will try to be plain.

The biggest advantage is the cost. I used to have LPG and I reckon my bill is about half.

There are two things you have to recognise when owning one. 1. it puts out heat at a lower temperature so warm up times are longer so you need to plan when you want it on or just leave it on the same daily pattern regardless of the weather. 2. there is a trade-off between efficiency and cost. It is best to recognise that for 5 days a year the heat pump won't cope with temperatures below say -7c. If you want it to cope with this you would have to buy a much bigger heat pump and the pay-back calculation would fall apart. By not cope what I mean is that for those 5 days, you will have to decide what compromise you want to make. If the kids are away at Uni we just turn off the heat to their rooms completely and the temperature is fine. If we are all at home we aren't as cosy in all the rooms as we would like to be.

Noise. In normal operating conditions the noise is just background and doesn't bother us. Don't even notice it most of the time.
When it's really cold, say below freezing, the unit runs on both fans and the noise at a level where you can hear it if you decide to listen for it. It's just background though and we dont' notice it.
However, the noise on the defrost cycle when it's below freezing is noticeable. Annoying occasionally when we are in bed at 3am in the morning. Most of the time we just sleep through it. It's not actually the noise that we notice but the way it kicks in and out. So, from no noise to noise, then back to no noise.

In summary an ASHP has to be sized correctly. The issue being if you get 3 quotes the cheapest one will be the one with the smallest heat output.

Thank you for that real life experience report, Gan.

As I understand the cost and implications of having an ASHP installed are only part of the matter. For a property currently with a gas boiler and wet radiators, one also then needs to have new water pipes and *radiators* installed, AND a new hot water cylinder ? - which in the case of a compact mid floor flat there would be no space for.

(* Or can the ASHP be connected to some sort of warm air blowing system, like an AC unit providing heat?)

Plus without access to cheaper or free electricity from the likes of solar panels (mid floor flats), one would still be exposed to the full cost of the electricity needed to power the ASHP?! It seems far from an ideal solution to me, regardless of one's conscience or appetite to minimise global warming. :?

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451623

Postby Howard » October 20th, 2021, 12:42 pm

malakoffee wrote:Thanks for this,

I read John Cantor's book "Heat Pumps for Homes" ( 2nd edition ) a few months ago and was left with the impression that there might be additional gubbins in a heat pump to further increase the flow temperature for DHW ( and not just an immersion-type heater ).
I'll have to have a re-read about that.

But you lead me towards the Air-to-Air possibility . . . . . . . . . . . . . . very interesting !

I was thinking of doing something like this as an experiment or transitional arrangement : i.e. hang on to the Gas boiler as a belt'n'braces fallback in the short-medium term.

Thus i could risk the lower cost of a suitable air-conditioner unit(*) and see whether it evolves to become the main space heating device.

(*) Cheaper and less disruptive than fitting an Air-to-water ASHP . . . .

. ... even better if I get a solar PV system and get the summer cooling for free !


I have done this. We installed a Mistsubishi ASHP for air conditioning in two rooms. And discovered that it is very economical as an immediate warm air heating source. We use it for chilly evenings when we don't want the full gas central heating on. Installation was not that expensive. I was careful to plan the appearance internally and externally and so it is very unobtrusive - and very quiet in normal operation (not sure about when it is de-icing as I don't go out in the cold to find out!)

regards

Howard

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451649

Postby bungeejumper » October 20th, 2021, 1:23 pm

richfool wrote:As I understand the cost and implications of having an ASHP installed are only part of the matter. For a property currently with a gas boiler and wet radiators, one also then needs to have new water pipes and *radiators* installed, AND a new hot water cylinder ? - which in the case of a compact mid floor flat there would be no space for.

If you've already got pipes and radiators, the heat pump system should be able to use them. Just connect it up to the same CH pipes that the old boiler used to use. (There are some complications, but that's the essence of it.) You may find that you need more rads, or bigger rads, but that's a relatively minor matter. And I imagine that a conventional set of TRVs will need replacing because they're calibrated for much hotter water?)

I'd be interested to know whether a pre-existing hot water tank with an immersion heater could be retained? I must say that it sounds a bit over-complicated to take ASHP water at 35 degrees and gun it up to 60 degrees just for the domestic hot water supply. Even though there'd be some cost savings?

BJ

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451676

Postby fisher » October 20th, 2021, 2:27 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
richfool wrote:As I understand the cost and implications of having an ASHP installed are only part of the matter. For a property currently with a gas boiler and wet radiators, one also then needs to have new water pipes and *radiators* installed, AND a new hot water cylinder ? - which in the case of a compact mid floor flat there would be no space for.

If you've already got pipes and radiators, the heat pump system should be able to use them. Just connect it up to the same CH pipes that the old boiler used to use. (There are some complications, but that's the essence of it.) You may find that you need more rads, or bigger rads, but that's a relatively minor matter. And I imagine that a conventional set of TRVs will need replacing because they're calibrated for much hotter water?)

I'd be interested to know whether a pre-existing hot water tank with an immersion heater could be retained? I must say that it sounds a bit over-complicated to take ASHP water at 35 degrees and gun it up to 60 degrees just for the domestic hot water supply. Even though there'd be some cost savings?

BJ


I have standard Drayton TRV4s on all my rads with my NIBE ASHP and they seem to work fine.

My installation has a NIBE megacoil hot water cylinder which is configured into the same control as the ASHP (temperature sensors etc.). Water is heated to circa 50 degrees in the cylinder, the ASHP gets the flow near to 60 degrees (which is its limit) at the end of the cycle to accomplish this. There is an immersion for periodic legionella purging.

I also looked at getting a Mitsubishi Ecodan when deciding what to buy 7 years ago. I seem to remember this would have worked with the pressurised cylinder that I had at the time (a Vaillant one). I don't know if it would work with a standard hot water cylinder.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451698

Postby richfool » October 20th, 2021, 3:25 pm

Can the ASHP be connected to some sort of warm air blowing system, like an AC unit in the adjoining room to provide heat?

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451705

Postby Gan020 » October 20th, 2021, 3:43 pm

richfool wrote:

Thank you for that real life experience report, Gan.

As I understand the cost and implications of having an ASHP installed are only part of the matter. For a property currently with a gas boiler and wet radiators, one also then needs to have new water pipes and *radiators* installed, AND a new hot water cylinder ? - which in the case of a compact mid floor flat there would be no space for.

(* Or can the ASHP be connected to some sort of warm air blowing system, like an AC unit providing heat?)

Plus without access to cheaper or free electricity from the likes of solar panels (mid floor flats), one would still be exposed to the full cost of the electricity needed to power the ASHP?! It seems far from an ideal solution to me, regardless of one's conscience or appetite to minimise global warming. :?[/quote]

Mine is connected to the existing pipework. Some of the old rads were kept, some had to go as bigger rads were required. All the existing TRV's were kept.

I had a new hot water cylinder but only because I had solar thermal as well which required an extra coil in the tank. If you don't have a tank you will need one or possibly a bigger tank as the hot water isn't as hot.

I do have solar panels but when the sun is out most in the summer my heating isn't on. In the depts of winter there is bugger all sun (well a bit). Sure, the solar panels do help with the bills a bit but in relation to the ASHP it's not the thing to focus on.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451768

Postby csearle » October 20th, 2021, 8:23 pm

My limited understanding is that although the ASHP is much more efficient* than an electric heating system and more efficient than a gas heating system the power consumed if an entire house is to be heated by it is large enough that our grid system would be under quite a strain when people take it up. If we are also all to move over to electric charging points for vehicles then the existing grid will collapse. So although the political intention is honourable, in reality the target dates will be moved.

Chris
* When I say efficient, all pure electric heating systems are 100% efficient. I mean that you get more heat energy out than electrical energy put it (because the rest is taken from the air outside).

PhaseThree

Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451791

Postby PhaseThree » October 20th, 2021, 9:15 pm

richfool wrote:Can the ASHP be connected to some sort of warm air blowing system, like an AC unit in the adjoining room to provide heat?


There are a couple of ways to do this - I have one of these installed
https://www.dimplex.co.uk/product/metal ... d-srx080em
Basically it is a standard-ish radiator with fans at the bottom to force air up and through the radiator fins. This drastically increases the heat output for a given radiator size. A similar type device can be fitted in the plinths of kitchen and utility units.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451799

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 20th, 2021, 9:32 pm

csearle wrote: If we are also all to move over to electric charging points for vehicles then the existing grid will collapse. So although the political intention is honourable, in reality the target dates will be moved.


Isn't your "limited understanding" here actually professional expertise? Maybe a "Yes, but ..."?

My experience of trying to get a heat pump was of considerable difficulty finding anyone interested in coming to look at the house, let alone quote for doing the job. By contrast, ordering a new gas boiler was as easy as a supermarket order, and the man who came to do the job explained that he got good business out of gas boilers and had no incentive to train for heat pumps. If government wants people to install heat pumps, providing people like him with opportunities and incentives to train for the job would seem a sensible move.

Political intention? Get some mostly-positive press for the Glasgow summit. Is that honourable? How much of it is anything more than hot air?

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451806

Postby csearle » October 20th, 2021, 9:47 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
csearle wrote: If we are also all to move over to electric charging points for vehicles then the existing grid will collapse. So although the political intention is honourable, in reality the target dates will be moved.


Isn't your "limited understanding" here actually professional expertise? Maybe a "Yes, but ..."?

My experience of trying to get a heat pump was of considerable difficulty finding anyone interested in coming to look at the house, let alone quote for doing the job. By contrast, ordering a new gas boiler was as easy as a supermarket order, and the man who came to do the job explained that he got good business out of gas boilers and had no incentive to train for heat pumps. If government wants people to install heat pumps, providing people like him with opportunities and incentives to train for the job would seem a sensible move.

Political intention? Get some mostly-positive press for the Glasgow summit. Is that honourable? How much of it is anything more than hot air?
Well I honestly don't want to get political about it, that was never my intention. I just don't believe the grid can currently handle the upgrade that we seem to be asking of it.

Today I had my annual inspection from my Part P organisation (NAPIT). The guy is fairly relaxed as he has inspected my work for the last decade. So we are sitting in a shop I helped wire out in the high street of Tunbridge Wells. He started chatting. He used to work for the distribution network operator of South London. As part of "The Grid" they have oil-cooled underground cables. The oil is under pressure. Because the installation of these cables (all over London, but stretching as far as Southampton and Hastings) is so old they are leaking. So they are checked periodically. If the leakage is below a certain amount they are topped up. Job done. If they exceed a certain amount the environment agency step in. This was ten years ago.

The point is that our infrastructure in this respect is already at the point of collapse. If we accelerate heat pumps and EV charging points then without a commensurate amount of upgrading of the infrastructure it will simply not work.

I am all for positive thinking but, realistically, part of the move to green is also investing in all this boring stuff.

Chris

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451815

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 20th, 2021, 10:15 pm

csearle wrote:I am all for positive thinking but, realistically, part of the move to green is also investing in all this boring stuff.

Chris

I hope folks like National Grid are giving it due attention. And that their hands aren't too horribly tied by political interference - things like price caps or spats with other countries.

We have a Prime Minister who's made a career on "positive" thinking and armwaving. Garden bridge, Thames Estuary Airport, Irish Sea tunnel. Global Britain, Levelling Up, Build Back Better. With a track record to rival his illustrious namesake, why should the Green promises be any different?

There will be progress despite the rhetoric. Some of us are investing our hard-earned in it! But what is said in the choreography for COP26 is at best peripheral thereunto.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451821

Postby csearle » October 20th, 2021, 10:26 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
csearle wrote:I am all for positive thinking but, realistically, part of the move to green is also investing in all this boring stuff.

Chris

I hope folks like National Grid are giving it due attention. And that their hands aren't too horribly tied by political interference - things like price caps or spats with other countries.

We have a Prime Minister who's made a career on "positive" thinking and arm-waving. Garden bridge, Thames Estuary Airport, Irish Sea tunnel. Global Britain, Levelling Up, Build Back Better. With a track record to rival his illustrious namesake, why should the Green promises be any different?

There will be progress despite the rhetoric. Some of us are investing our hard-earned in it! But what is said in the choreography for COP26 is at best peripheral thereunto.
I hear what you are saying. I LOVED the idea of the garden bridge. It is such a shame that it never happened. Sometimes though we need positive thinking, even though it stands in the face of reality. We have seen tremendous moves to various aspects of our lives through rather ambitious targets that have then been, vaguely, achieved eventually, like electric vehicles. The alternative is to do nothing and face a bigger crunch later on. C.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#451839

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 20th, 2021, 11:34 pm

csearle wrote:The alternative is to do nothing and face a bigger crunch later on. C.


We've been doing that for as long as I can remember.

With perhaps the honourable exception of John Major's fuel price escalator - a signal to the market that changes would be a Good Idea, but over a long enough timespan to adapt. Until that fell victim to political nonsense.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#452267

Postby funduffer » October 22nd, 2021, 2:45 pm

richfool wrote:Can the ASHP be connected to some sort of warm air blowing system, like an AC unit in the adjoining room to provide heat?


It seems to me that the ideal central heating system for an ASHP is one that moves hot (or cold) air around the home, rather than using the ASHP to heat water to circulate to radiators or underfloor pipes.

In the 1960's and 1970's there was a short-lived period when underfloor ducted hot air systems were built into new houses in the UK. My mother had one, with the heat source being a gigantic gas boiler in the garage and vents with hot air emerging in each room in the house. The house was beautifully warm, with no radiators on the walls. Unfortunately the gas bills were eye-watering, compared to my gas combi boiler plus radiators.

However, such a system connected to an ASHP would be interesting. Not only would the ducted air come straight from the heat pump, but in the summer it could also provide air conditioning (not to be ignored in these days of global warming). If I was living in my mother's old house, I would be seriously looking at this. However, retro-fitting my current house from a hot water + radiator system to ducted hot air would, I imagine, be a big, expensive carve up.

If anyone fancies converting a ducted heating system from gas to an ASHP themselves, look no further than our FIRE friend, Mr Money Mustache, who has done this recently in his house (in the USA):

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2021/10 ... heat-pump/

He certainly is resourceful!

FD

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#452305

Postby bungeejumper » October 22nd, 2021, 4:23 pm

funduffer wrote:In the 1960's and 1970's there was a short-lived period when underfloor ducted hot air systems were built into new houses in the UK. My mother had one, with the heat source being a gigantic gas boiler in the garage and vents with hot air emerging in each room in the house. The house was beautifully warm, with no radiators on the walls. Unfortunately the gas bills were eye-watering, compared to my gas combi boiler plus radiators.

Indeed! My parents found the same thing with their house (built in 1968). My own problem with the warm air system was that it made my pollen allergy seriously miserable, and it would have been worse if I'd had a problem with household dust instead. (No chance. I was a male teenager. ;) )
However, such a system connected to an ASHP would be interesting. Not only would the ducted air come straight from the heat pump, but in the summer it could also provide air conditioning (not to be ignored in these days of global warming). If I was living in my mother's old house, I would be seriously looking at this.

I read somewhere that warm air heating is a dominant pattern in America, and I suppose that the aircon angle more or less clinches the attraction. Well, that and the ultra-low cost of fossil fuels?

Tell you what, let's sidestep the question of whether air conditioning is a remedy for global warming, or a significant contributory cause of it? :)

BJ

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#452325

Postby richlist » October 22nd, 2021, 5:48 pm

The world has moved on since the 1960's. Just as cars now have pollen filters fitted to their heaters/air con so do air to air heat pumps.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#452328

Postby 9873210 » October 22nd, 2021, 5:56 pm

bungeejumper wrote:I read somewhere that warm air heating is a dominant pattern in America, and I suppose that the aircon angle more or less clinches the attraction. Well, that and the ultra-low cost of fossil fuels?

Probably has more to do with basements and stud walls which make installing air ducts easier, and that most American homes were built with central heating. Retrofitting central heating is never easy, but retrofitting air ducts in a brick building is so much worse.

Any efficiency differences are quite small and will be overwhelmed by quality of installation (and insulation and air sealing).
A true radiant system is more efficient, but that means underfloor heating. If it has "radiators" it's mostly convective not radiant. In any case you can do a radiant system using hot air. These were popular about two thousand years ago.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#452361

Postby richfool » October 22nd, 2021, 8:23 pm

funduffer wrote:
richfool wrote:Can the ASHP be connected to some sort of warm air blowing system, like an AC unit in the adjoining room to provide heat?


It seems to me that the ideal central heating system for an ASHP is one that moves hot (or cold) air around the home, rather than using the ASHP to heat water to circulate to radiators or underfloor pipes.

In the 1960's and 1970's there was a short-lived period when underfloor ducted hot air systems were built into new houses in the UK. My mother had one, with the heat source being a gigantic gas boiler in the garage and vents with hot air emerging in each room in the house. The house was beautifully warm, with no radiators on the walls. Unfortunately the gas bills were eye-watering, compared to my gas combi boiler plus radiators.

However, such a system connected to an ASHP would be interesting. Not only would the ducted air come straight from the heat pump, but in the summer it could also provide air conditioning (not to be ignored in these days of global warming). If I was living in my mother's old house, I would be seriously looking at this. However, retro-fitting my current house from a hot water + radiator system to ducted hot air would, I imagine, be a big, expensive carve up.

If anyone fancies converting a ducted heating system from gas to an ASHP themselves, look no further than our FIRE friend, Mr Money Mustache, who has done this recently in his house (in the USA):

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2021/10 ... heat-pump/

He certainly is resourceful!

FD

Thanks funduffer. The mrmoneymustache article was interesting. Though I live in a flat, with no room for a water tank, let alone ducting. If I had to fit an ASHP to the outside wall it would need to link straight through to some sort of wall unit, like a AC unit, on the inside wall of the adjoining room.

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Re: Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

#452369

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 22nd, 2021, 9:01 pm

richlist wrote:The world has moved on since the 1960's. Just as cars now have pollen filters fitted to their heaters/air con so do air to air heat pumps.

Yeah, but more recently (this century) I've encountered ducted heating. Mostly in churches, which I experience in the context of concerts. It's not nice: the blown air feels bad, appears to carry dust, and certainly delivers a tickle in the throat. Though it's better than some heating systems popular in churches, like putting people under a grill.

I don't know if there's a particular British element to it, as aircond here is usually pretty ghastly too, whereas that seems a whole lot more bearable in many other countries. Maybe the normalisation of heat pumps will help weed out the crap and leave us the decent ones - eventually.


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