Air Source Heat Pump (ASHP)

[GeoffF100]

* Installing a heat pump can in fact reduce your home's energy efficiency score
* This is because the ratings system is archaic and no longer fit for purpose
* It's also down to taxes levied on electricity, which means running a heat pump can cost as much as 30pc more than a gas boiler

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mor ... ating.html

[Howard]

Out of interest this evening I compared the external noise of my newish and regularly serviced gas boiler with our ASHP aircon. The gas boiler exhaust is significantly noisier when the modulating boiler is working at full power. Whilst its fan is much smaller and shifts less air/water vapour it appears to be spinning much faster. At a distance of a few metres away it is audible whereas the aircon isn't.

There is no comparison indoors, the gas boiler is much noisier.

To be fair the boiler was working hard heating both hot water and radiators and usually modulates to a lower setting fairly quickly unless the weather is very cold. The ASHP is lower powered (4kW) and was just producing warm air to heat two rooms.

It wouldn't be pleasant, for example, watching TV in the same room as the boiler which is in the utility room whereas the aircon is very quiet, even on full fan speed.

regards

Howard

[Lanark]

This covers the basics around the insulation required, the govt seem to be ignoring that aspect.

This is Why Heat Pumps May NOT Be The Future
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

[BobbyD]

This covers the basics around the insulation required, the govt seem to be ignoring that aspect.

This is Why Heat Pumps May NOT Be The Future
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

These videos of heating design consultants watching that video are somewhat more interesting.

Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps (part 1)| FIRST TIME WATCHING! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P22W-4mXrbw

Part 2 Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps | FIRST TIME WATCHING - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cYvJPPmVGs

[bungeejumper]

Never mind the heat pump, that guy in the video has a future in horror movies. I don't know whether it's the crazy-zombie eyes or just the relentless way he drives his points home, but I wouldn't want to be stuck in a lift with him for too long, would you?

BJ

[GoSeigen]

This covers the basics around the insulation required, the govt seem to be ignoring that aspect.

This is Why Heat Pumps May NOT Be The Future
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

I was with him until the hydrogen bit at the end ("make energy from water..."), than had to put my head in my hands.

GS

[Mike4]

This covers the basics around the insulation required, the govt seem to be ignoring that aspect.

This is Why Heat Pumps May NOT Be The Future
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

These videos of heating design consultants watching that video are somewhat more interesting.

Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps (part 1)| FIRST TIME WATCHING! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P22W-4mXrbw

Part 2 Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps | FIRST TIME WATCHING - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cYvJPPmVGs

Totally agree. Heat Geeks are well regarded amongst heating engineers, Roger Bisby is seen as a bit of a crazeee, and certainly by me. His presentation relies on emotion and hyperbole and not much else.

[BobbyD]

This covers the basics around the insulation required, the govt seem to be ignoring that aspect.

This is Why Heat Pumps May NOT Be The Future
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

These videos of heating design consultants watching that video are somewhat more interesting.

Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps (part 1)| FIRST TIME WATCHING! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P22W-4mXrbw

Part 2 Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps | FIRST TIME WATCHING - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cYvJPPmVGs

Totally agree. Heat Geeks are well regarded amongst heating engineers, Roger Bisby is seen as a bit of a crazeee, and certainly by me. His presentation relies on emotion and hyperbole and not much else.

He's probably better regarded in the Youtube industry though, 713,175 views compared to Heat Geeks 41,920 and 388,000 subscribers compared to Heat Geeks 6140... It's a very well constructed video, if you discount the idea that its purpose is to inform the viewer about heat pumps. I've got him down to become PM in 2023.

[Mike4]

These videos of heating design consultants watching that video are somewhat more interesting.

Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps (part 1)| FIRST TIME WATCHING! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P22W-4mXrbw

Part 2 Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps | FIRST TIME WATCHING - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cYvJPPmVGs

Totally agree. Heat Geeks are well regarded amongst heating engineers, Roger Bisby is seen as a bit of a crazeee, and certainly by me. His presentation relies on emotion and hyperbole and not much else.

He's probably better regarded in the Youtube industry though, 713,175 views compared to Heat Geeks 41,920 and 388,000 subscribers compared to Heat Geeks 6140... It's a very well constructed video, if you discount the idea that its purpose is to inform the viewer about heat pumps. I've got him down to become PM in 2023.

Quite. He benefits from the "covid effect", where emotion and sensationalism trump 'the science' in the minds of the public, every time.

[BobbyD]

Totally agree. Heat Geeks are well regarded amongst heating engineers, Roger Bisby is seen as a bit of a crazeee, and certainly by me. His presentation relies on emotion and hyperbole and not much else.

He's probably better regarded in the Youtube industry though, 713,175 views compared to Heat Geeks 41,920 and 388,000 subscribers compared to Heat Geeks 6140... It's a very well constructed video, if you discount the idea that its purpose is to inform the viewer about heat pumps. I've got him down to become PM in 2023.

Quite. He benefits from the "covid effect", where emotion and sensationalism trump 'the science' in the minds of the public, every time.

I think the operative word in your post is Trump...

[GoSeigen]

This covers the basics around the insulation required, the govt seem to be ignoring that aspect.

This is Why Heat Pumps May NOT Be The Future
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhAKMAcmJFg

These videos of heating design consultants watching that video are somewhat more interesting.

Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps (part 1)| FIRST TIME WATCHING! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P22W-4mXrbw

Part 2 Installers react to Skill builders video on heat pumps | FIRST TIME WATCHING - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cYvJPPmVGs

Totally agree. Heat Geeks are well regarded amongst heating engineers, Roger Bisby is seen as a bit of a crazeee, and certainly by me. His presentation relies on emotion and hyperbole and not much else.

I only watched the first of these videos; Heat Geeks agreed with pretty much everything Bisby said, especially the dude on the right who seemed rather better informed than his partner. If they were critical it was largely about Bisby's energetic presentation, resulting in some of his message not being as clear as it might have been. But hey, the guy is engaging and entertaining and largely correct in his message.

GS
EDIT: Have started the second video and so far after 5 min everything they are saying is basically rubbish or slagging him off. Not good...

[Lanark]

GS
EDIT: Have started the second video and so far after 5 min everything they are saying is basically rubbish or slagging him off. Not good...

What have Heat Geeks said which you think is incorrect?

[GoSeigen]

GS
EDIT: Have started the second video and so far after 5 min everything they are saying is basically rubbish or slagging him off. Not good...

What have Heat Geeks said which you think is incorrect?

In the first video, the chap on the right said that UK winters are getting harsher with climate change. In fact UK winters have been getting milder.

Second video: 1. left fellow immediately started rabbiting on about the "three times more expensive" thing when Roger hadn't even mentioned this so far. It's clearly all he seems to have gotten out of the first video and is a shameful distortion of what that video was about. 2. He has a rant about Roger's installation stills whereas I can't see how they could have known what kind of installation he'd done: did they inspect it? Did they see details of it on another of Roger's videos? They don't say. 3. "This guy really isn't credible." Rubbish. He seemed highly credible to me. Much of the first five minutes is an unjustified ad hominem attack. 4. Suggesting the problem with CO2 is "breathing in carbon dioxide"! Breathing in CO2 is NOT the issue here, it is the effect of CO2 in the atmosphere causing radiant heat to be trapped and raising global temperatures. Mr Insecure is hoist by his own petard: "This guy really isn't credible".


GS

[BullDog]

Heat Geeks criticise Bisby for claiming that heat pumps cost 3x more to run than an equivalent gas boiler. Whilst that indeed is not generally true, what Bisby actually should be saying is that the electricity to run the heat pump costs about 3x the cost of gas kW per kW, which would be true. But he should also then explain that a heat pump typically generates 3kW of heat in the home for every 1kW used by the heat pump. Then he should explain that's known as the coefficient of performance or COP. That term is thrown around a lot in heat pump conversations but it cannot be assumed that a layperson understands the meaning of COP. He almost explains, but falls short, that when the weather outside is really cold, an air source heat pump COP will fall dramatically. So just when you need the most heat, the performance of an air source heat pump will be at it's poorest duty point.

[BullDog]

GS
EDIT: Have started the second video and so far after 5 min everything they are saying is basically rubbish or slagging him off. Not good...

What have Heat Geeks said which you think is incorrect?

In the first video, the chap on the right said that UK winters are getting harsher with climate change. In fact UK winters have been getting milder.

Second video: 1. left fellow immediately started rabbiting on about the "three times more expensive" thing when Roger hadn't even mentioned this so far. It's clearly all he seems to have gotten out of the first video and is a shameful distortion of what that video was about. 2. He has a rant about Roger's installation stills whereas I can't see how they could have known what kind of installation he'd done: did they inspect it? Did they see details of it on another of Roger's videos? They don't say. 3. "This guy really isn't credible." Rubbish. He seemed highly credible to me. Much of the first five minutes is an unjustified ad hominem attack. 4. Suggesting the problem with CO2 is "breathing in carbon dioxide"! Breathing in CO2 is NOT the issue here, it is the effect of CO2 in the atmosphere causing radiant heat to be trapped and raising global temperatures. Mr Insecure is hoist by his own petard: "This guy really isn't credible".


GS

I quite agree with you, aside from what I just posted in my own post a few minutes ago. Essentially, Bisby is (almost) on the money.

[Hallucigenia]

This from NESTA on the need to have a plan to train more heat pump engineers is the sort of boring stuff government needs to be getting on with but won't....
https://www.nesta.org.uk/report/how-to- ... -industry/

[modellingman]

This from NESTA on the need to have a plan to train more heat pump engineers is the sort of boring stuff government needs to be getting on with but won't....
https://www.nesta.org.uk/report/how-to- ... -industry/

Indeed. 40 years ago, before the Thatcher revolution really got underway, there was a considerable amount of emphasis on strategic planning in all sorts of areas, including vast tranches of public sector activity and, in particular, workforce planning. The outcomes of this activity controlled things like the number of trainee teachers, nurses, medics, etc. admitted each year. This sort of strategic planning has largely been abandoned in favour of solutions based on markets and competition. These days though this comes without the sort of regulation that Thatcher definitely favoured.

Whilst NESTA's report does go some way towards a more planned approach and has identified some elements of the problem and makes some useful recommendations, there are a few things it has overlooked. These include:

• age profile of the existing workforce of heating engineers and similar - although mentioned in passing the implications of this are not really explored. In recent times, declines in big swathes of the "trades" workforce have largely been offset by immigration from eastern europe. But that door has now been firmly closed. A workforce of declining size simply adds to the problems of converting heating engineers to the tasks of heat pump installation and design.
• the dominance of sole traders in the workforce is noted but again the implications are not well explored. One reason why sole traders stay that way and, in particular why they do not take on apprentices or "pass me" assistants, is that this generally require an increase in turnover to above the VAT threshold. This acts as a strong disincentive for many to go beyond being a sole trader
• conversion of the various recommendations into numeric contributions to the identified demand for installation capacity - ie a bit of modelling to develop better understanding of the relative importance of the various recommendations made

It will be difficult enough, even with a fair wind behind it, to get the growth in ASHP installation capacity that is required if the government does follow through with the bans on gas boilers. Without some strategic thinking it will be well-nigh impossible.

[richlist]

Air to air ASHPs are straightforward installations.
It's specifically the ones which heat water that need specific training.

[BullDog]

Air to air ASHPs are straightforward installations.
It's specifically the ones which heat water that need specific training.

You need to be licenced to touch anything on the refrigeration circuit of any appliance using refrigerant gas. Much like gas safe registration.

[gryffron]

Air to air ASHPs are straightforward installations.
It's specifically the ones which heat water that need specific training.

You need to be licenced to touch anything on the refrigeration circuit of any appliance using refrigerant gas. Much like gas safe registration.

And you still need to be a competent plumber to start off with. And there are few enough of those.

Britain pretty much stopped training technicians (in all trades) in 1997 when Tony Blair decided we “needed” 50% of our population to be (sociology) graduates and turned all the Polytechnics into universities. “Modern apprenticeships” have scratched the surface of this problem, but there aren’t nearly enough of them to dent it.

So what politician is brave enough to reduce the highly profitable privatised university sector, and tell parents their little Tarquin isn’t bright enough?

Gryff