New boiler gas use

[richlist]

It must be hard for someone who has spent their working life dealing with gas central heating to embrace the new technologies. Especially so if they think it might affect their business.

It's not my job to convince you otherwise, there is no benefit in me trying. I think it's the future, so do the Gov', it's coming and the only question is when.

[fisher]

The people claiming heat pumps are cheap to buy never seem to state figures. How much did yours cost to buy and install please? The Guardian article says they cost between £10,000 and £20,000 to install, less any gov't grants you might or might not happen to qualify for.

And given the climate in Spain, I'd guess a heat pump about five times the size would be needed to cope with one of our bleak UK winter spells when the outside temperature barely rises above zero for days or weeks on end.

A whole house air-to-water heat pump is a totally different kettle of fish from the simple modular 'plug and play' air-to-air system I suspect you might have in your Spanish gaff.

I haven't been following this thread and I haven't ever claimed that an ASHP is cheap to buy, however I have a 16kw NIBE air to water ASHP that was installed 6 years ago. It cost around £11k to install it including the ASHP, new pressurised hot water cylinder, changes to a lot of the pipework and changes in sizing of around 20 radiators (no underfloor heating). My RHI grant is about £7.5k, so net cost to me is about £3.5k.

I live in a village with no gas available so prior to this I was on heating oil. I'm extremely pleased with the system and how it has performed over the 6 years. Our annual cost for electricity for our 5 bedroom house (covering all our heating, hot water, cooking, lighting etc.) Is around £1300, just a little over £100 a month.

The house is well insulated.

[Johnspenceuk]

How cost-effective are air source heat pumps in Scotland, where you might get days on end in winter where the temperature doesn't get above 5 degrees?

Scott.

Hi Scott

I had intended fitting an ASHP in a new build property 6 miles from Stirling in 2017 after significant research I decided I couldnt be sure of achieving a decent COP in the winter months (We have no need for space heating for 6-7 months of the year). We are a latitude similar to Norway but the milder though damper climate means the ASHP CoP can drop below 2 in winter because of recycling to remove ice on the evaporator a much higher CoP is produced in the warmer months but we have no space heating requirements then.
So I decided to go with oil. The house is 270m sq. with u/floor heating throughout good u values (ideal for an ASHP installation ) I believe the new build u values in Scotland are 25% better than Englad/Wales u values.

The consumption is 1250l Kero pa producing 12,750kw costing £360 for heating & HW about 2.8p per kw. I am delighted with the performance and costs using oil. The boiler cost was £1250 ( zero vat on new build ) IIRC.

FYI I was on a job a few years ago around 2012 where a GSHP installation was specified when were finished I was speaking to the architect who told me they were getting a CoP of 4-1 all day every day and he was very happy with that performance it was a non-domestic installation. I think if GSHP was option I may well have gone that route.
Hope you find this useful anything else you would like to know please ask.

Regards

John

[fisher]

The people claiming heat pumps are cheap to buy never seem to state figures. How much did yours cost to buy and install please? The Guardian article says they cost between £10,000 and £20,000 to install, less any gov't grants you might or might not happen to qualify for.

And given the climate in Spain, I'd guess a heat pump about five times the size would be needed to cope with one of our bleak UK winter spells when the outside temperature barely rises above zero for days or weeks on end.

A whole house air-to-water heat pump is a totally different kettle of fish from the simple modular 'plug and play' air-to-air system I suspect you might have in your Spanish gaff.

I haven't been following this thread and I haven't ever claimed that an ASHP is cheap to buy, however I have a 16kw NIBE air to water ASHP that was installed 6 years ago. It cost around £11k to install it including the ASHP, new pressurised hot water cylinder, changes to a lot of the pipework and changes in sizing of around 20 radiators (no underfloor heating). My RHI grant is about £7.5k, so net cost to me is about £3.5k.

I live in a village with no gas available so prior to this I was on heating oil. I'm extremely pleased with the system and how it has performed over the 6 years. Our annual cost for electricity for our 5 bedroom house (covering all our heating, hot water, cooking, lighting etc.) Is around £1300, just a little over £100 a month.

The house is well insulated.

Thanks, that's very interesting to hear. Do you use any supplementary heating at all, especially in the coldest weather petiods? I would also be interested to hear if you don't mind sharing, the region of the UK you live, Northern Scotland, Cornwall or somewhere in between. Thanks again.

RVF

We have a wood burning stove in our lounge which we sometimes use in the colder weather. Mainly on weekends when I have the time to tend it. I live in North Yorkshire, in a village 15 miles north of York. We haven't used anything else.

The pump is more efficient as the outside temperature rises but it is still OK at 0 degrees and will function down to -15 according to the literature. The lowest I recall in the last 6 years here is about minus 8. The vast majority of the time outside temperatures are well above zero. When looking at running costs it is average temperatures that are most important. The odd extreme day with an associated drop off in efficiency costs little when compared to the overall yearly expenditure. Autumn and Spring give the highest COP (the system is not needed in summer other thanfor hot water) and obviously this drops in winter, but even then we have a lot of days well above 0.

I would add that a well insulated home is necessary for the ASHP to function well. It works its best when it is continually topping up an already warm house rather than trying to reheat a house that has got cold. It is running a good part of the night in the background.

[Mike4]

It must be hard for someone who has spent their working life dealing with gas central heating to embrace the new technologies. Especially so if they think it might affect their business.

It's not my job to convince you otherwise, there is no benefit in me trying. I think it's the future, so do the Gov', it's coming and the only question is when.

I ask you some genuine questions, and you respond with drivel like this. I find this quite insulting.

[pochisoldi]

Well my property in Spain has zero insulation.......totally zero. No wall insulation, no double glazing etc.
It gets very cold in winter.....below freezing sometimes but regularly below 5 deg'.
The heat pump works like magic and doesn't cost much to run.I

Don't knock it until you've tried it.

Peter Kay once said "Garlic Bread - It's the future, I've tasted it"

We aren't talking about garlic bread here - £10,000 is a lot of money to find out whether a heat pump would be any good for me, regardless of how tasty you may find it.

[scotview]

We installed a 4 zone heating system in the house a couple of years ago, (14 radiators). Much better control of heating.

About a year and a half ago BG installed a replacement condensing boiler. They recommended a 24KW boiler and insisted that a 3/4" gas pipe was required. In order to save upheaval I signed a vaiver to have a 15 KW rated boiler installed, this didnt require a gas pipe upgrade.

The 15kw rated boiler also has a better turn down ratio. This is useful, since the boiler mainly supplies heat to limited zoned rooms. The boiler has coped with a Christmas with the family at home.

I've just looked a our gas consumption figures and they are :
2017 24953 kWh
2018 26541 kWh
2019 20819 kWh
Current 12 months 19027 kWh

The heating is more controllable and we seem to be saving on gas usage, notwithstanding winter severity.

[richlist]

Our gas usage ratios are about the same as yours..... we live in Essex.
Last winter was exceptionally mild in our area and so far this year it's the same. Hence the low gas usage for 2019 & 2020.

[Dod101]

The consumption is 1250l Kero pa producing 12,750kw costing £360 for heating & HW about 2.8p per kw. I am delighted with the performance and costs using oil. The boiler cost was £1250 ( zero vat on new build ) IIRC.

These look very modest costs. I too live in Scotland but nearer to Perth than Stirling. My oil consumption is about the same but you appear to be quoting around 28p a litre for kerosene, about what I recently paid. I am not sure though that that is typical as it about the cheapest I have paid in the last 10 years. My average cost would surely be nearer 40p a litre

I am heartened if a new oil fired boiler will cost only around £1250 plus VAT as my current boiler is about 20 years old but touch wood is still working fine.

Dod

[Johnspenceuk]

The consumption is 1250l Kero pa producing 12,750kw costing £360 for heating & HW about 2.8p per kw. I am delighted with the performance and costs using oil. The boiler cost was £1250 ( zero vat on new build ) IIRC.

These look very modest costs. I too live in Scotland but nearer to Perth than Stirling. My oil consumption is about the same but you appear to be quoting around 28p a litre for kerosene, about what I recently paid. I am not sure though that that is typical as it about the cheapest I have paid in the last 10 years. My average cost would surely be nearer 40p a litre

I am heartened if a new oil fired boiler will cost only around £1250 plus VAT as my current boiler is about 20 years old but touch wood is still working fine.

Dod

Hi Dod

Yes I agree it is cheap cheaper than I expected. I think I paid 40p+ a year ago for the previous top up it's a Grant boiler recommended by the Plumbing contractor he said he's been to a few on farms and they run for decades not years, I cant confirm his opinion but happy so far they also manufacture the ASHP I had been thinking of. This oil heating is new to me I have always had mains gas in the past.

Regards
John

Just googled it there are some on ebay £1200-£1650

[Dod101]

I have been in my current house around 15 years and have kept a record of the oil price, usually buying 2000 litres a time. This brings the price down a bit. I have paid usually around 40p but in January 2012 it was just over 60p and currently around 28/29p.

So far my boiler has been trouble free, serviced once a year. Use electricity for cooking etc. Gas is more convenient but nowadays I have no idea how the prices would compare.

Dod

[richlist]

One of the downsides of oil heating seems to be the need to pay your heating bill up front/ in advance compared to gas where it's possible to virtually pay as go.

2000 litres at 60p = £1200. Back in 2012 interest rates were higher and you could probably of got £75pa interest on £1200. So the real cost to you was around 64p a litre.

Now interest rates are almost non existent 28p looks attractive but it doesn't escape the need to pay up front.

[Dod101]

Paying up front is what happens with most purchases although I do not deny that I pay for my electricity in arrears and I expect I would for gas as well. Not an issue I have really thought about very much.

Dod

[DrFfybes]

Our 40 year old Glow worm hideaway refused to stay lit last week.

I eventually found an engineer willing to open it (2 others refused to touch it as they thought it might have to be condemned and I would be wasing my money) who spent 3 hours cleaning it and fitting a new thermocouple. Most of the time was making a new captive nut fixing for the cover as one was stripped and fudged with sealant and new rules require repairs to OE standard, and someone had broken into his van and pinched some stuff, including his 7mm spanner and the captive riveting tool.

So, dragging this back vaguely on topic we were discussing boiler claimed and actual efficiiency and how low some people reported savings were. He was surprised and reckoned it should be 15% or so from a 65-70% old boiler to a new condensing one, and then added "Of course £60 of that is down to not having a pilot light".

Looking online it seems a pilot light could be up to £90/year, so Gaggsy's new boiler could actually be costing him more

Paul

[tjh290633]

In 1997 we replaced our old Potterton boiler, which had sprung a leak in its heat exchanger, with the then current Suprima conventional boiler (i.e. not condensing). The average gas consumption of the old one over its life from 1980 to 1996 was 1,189 Therms/yr. The new one from 1998 to last year averaged 714 Therms/yr, 60% of the original.

Lack of a pilot light is certainly a factor, but the principal reason in my view is the absence of cycling when there is no demand for either heating or water, as previously the pumps ran continuously during the "on" period. The system was revised to have a single pump and three way valve, with a new controller.

TJH