Storage heaters - replace, upgrade or live with?

[Clariman]

One of our holiday lets has storage heaters which have been in there since day one (2003). I've never been a great fan of them but have stuck with them because they are on an economy 7 plan that has been fairly cost effective. However, there are some drawbacks...

• They don't offer any on-demand heating for guests (although none have really complained about that)
• Because we have storage heaters, our insurer mandates that we turn-off the water stop-cock during the winter when unoccupied.... because there is no 'frost-protection' setting or equivalent. This means we have to pay our managing agent to do this before and after lets during the winter months, which costs us £25 a time.
• We also have to pay our managing agent to read the meter from time to time. I would like to get a Smart Meter installed but these are not compatible with storage heaters and economy 7 . Therefore, I will need to continue to pay for meter readings at £25 a time.
• I cannot control the heating remotely so rely on guests or the managing agent to switch off the storage heaters when the property is unoccupied .... which either leads to it not being done or me having to pay for it to be done. We have a Hive installed to control heating in our other property

The property also has a stove in the living/dining/kitchen area and small wall-mounted convector heaters in each of the two bedrooms. We have a heated towel rail in the bathroom too. There is no gas in the area and we don't have room for an oil tank for an oil-fired heating system. The insulation is pretty good.

I asked here about under-floor heating 2.5 years ago. However, time and technology move on. Are there any better heating solutions available?

Our night usage is approx 5,000 KwH per annum. Day usage about 2,000 KwH. Costs about £1,000 per annum.

Thanks

[wilbobob]

I have no experience of night storage heaters, but I do have a smart meter and an economy 7 tariff. Don't see why you shouldn't too. It might be something to do with your supplier, I'm with OVO. I run a comparison every renewal time against a standard tariff to make sure I'm still on the cheapest option. OVO tell me that transfer to a standard tariff can be done without changes to the meter and at no cost at renewal time.

[richlist]

* You could fit a small electric fire/ fan heater / convector heater in the lounge to provide on-demand heating.
* We have rental properties with storage heaters. We don't turn the water off during the winter between tenancies....we just turn the storage heaters down to number 1 and make sure all the interior doors are open......that's worked for us for the last 20 years.

[richlist]

I have no experience of running a holiday let but I do know that storage heaters are generally accepted as being expensive to run compared to other domestic types of heating.

But, we are talking about a holiday let here where occupants traditionally have little regard for economy and are often known to leave heating on full blast when they go out or check out. So, because of that comparitive lack of control that storage heaters offer, they are probably preferable, financially, than other more controllable forms of heating in your holiday let.

[EssDeeAitch]

When building our extension, I opted for infra-red panel heaters instead of extending the wet system or having conventional electric convection heaters. After a lot (I mean a lot, I can tend to overdo the research phase) I settled on https://www.warm4less.com/ as a supplier.

Panels can be wall or ceiling mounted (these have some additional rear faced insulation), come in plain white (like a whiteboard to look at) or you can have them printed with a supplied image or from their stock. They are even available as a mirror for bathrooms. Controls can be local or controlled from a smart phone and can be set for three variable run periods per day with upper and lower temperature limits.

Their kw calculator shows that for a room 4x4x3.5 m you would need a capacity of 1,356kw at a cost of £0.0176/hour at 13p/kwh.
One additional benefit is that choosing ceiling mounted units leaves the walls free of radiators etc but this means no-where to hang the washing to dry I suppose.

We are 12 months into running them and feel we made the right choice.

[Clariman]

Thanks Snorvey. I missed that on their website but had emailed them a question about controlling over the Internet. I even read the brochure and operating instructions for the heater which make no mention of it! I didn't spot the hub.

[Clariman]

It's a tricky one.

Our fuel bill for this property is only around £1,000 p.a. However, in 2018, we spent about £150 getting the agent to switch them on or off at times during the winter. So the operating costs are about £1,150 overall.

Dimplex Quantum cost around £700 each and we currently have 3 storage heaters and hub would be around £2,300 - say £2,500 with installation. If we saved 20% on fuel costs and removed the agent switching them on and off, we would save around £350 per annum. So payback would be 7 years or so. And the Quantum also allows immediate heat at non-off-peak so guests might make use of that, thus removing potential savings.

I suppose fuels costs are not going to get cheaper so perhaps payback might be sooner.

Any comments on my logic or numbers?

C

[richlist]

As a business decision, it seems that replacing the existing heaters doesn't make any financial sense.

* 7 year + payback.......although presumably supply & installation costs are tax deductable.
* The work won't add significantly the value of the property.
* Can't see the new heaters attracting significantly more tenants after installation.
* Lots of effort (& cost?) on your part arranging a new installation.
* There is bound to be at least some minimal redecoration / making good.
* If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Sobraon]

As a alternative .. 3 x WiFi Controlled Fused Spur Time Switch (Time Guard, UK company, £43.69 from eBay) and a webcam to check ( looking at the 'meter')?

[swill453]

As a alternative .. 3 x WiFi Controlled Fused Spur Time Switch (Time Guard, UK company, £43.69 from eBay) and a webcam to check ( looking at the 'meter')?

Which of course could be programmed to give frost protection (e.g. switch on every few days) and remove the need for the stopcock switch off.

Scott.

[Clariman]

As a alternative .. 3 x WiFi Controlled Fused Spur Time Switch (Time Guard, UK company, £43.69 from eBay) and a webcam to check ( looking at the 'meter')?

Thanks. Are you suggesting having ordinary heaters but just controlling when they come on? My only issue with that would be that I once stayed in a hotel where it was really freezing in the room when I arrive about 3pm and switching on the only source of heating (an electric radiator) had no effect. This is because the power to the switch was off until 5pm or 6pm. As a paying guest that infuriated me. So while I want to have an element of control and to be able to switch things on and off, I don't want guests to be unhappy.

[Sobraon]

I just thought about how I would try to avoid the charges, automate the process, avoid replacing the storage radiators and suggesting a way to address the three key issues you listed in your original post.

“..there is no 'frost-protection'", "read the meter from time to time" and "I cannot control the heating remotely".

The Timeguard product replaces a fused spur + switch + timer so you could operate the heating system as it is now. However the Timeguard product adds wifi control. Timeguard provide a simple Android/Apple interface to set on and off schedules, holiday modes and permanent on/off. This is OK but the product also can be used with IFTTT (Wiki) which allows deeper automation for example by switching on the timer/switch when the outside temperature drops below some value. It's also possible to automate on the weather forecast for example here. It appeals to me to only switch the storage radiators on during the E7 period during the night before a predicted cold snap (Weather Underground works with IFTTT and produces UK forecasts).

And of course the Timeguard product can be controlled from anywhere with a mobile phone and an internet connection.

I suggested an IP Webcam for the meter to save manual reading.

I have not relationship with Timeguard but it was the only UK product I could find of its type and as I said in my earlier post I have just fitted one to control the heated towel rail in the bathroom.

[gryffron]

However, time and technology move on. Are there any better heating solutions available?

The modern alternative is Air Sourced Heating (ASH). Think of it as reverse air-con. It sucks heat from outside and pumps it indoors. We did a thread on it a few weeks ago. So a few conclusions for you:

ASH is nearly as good as gas CH in terms of cost, complexity, and environmental impact most of the time. If there is no gas, ASH is easily the next best alternative for full time property heating. But I'm not entirely certain it suits a holiday let where the property is often empty and heating is on only infrequently and at very low temperatures.

+1) It gives heat on demand, any time of day
+1) It produces heat much more efficiently than convection heaters. 3-4 times as good.

-1) It has moving parts and aircon gas. Installation and maintenance MUCH more expensive than storage heaters.
-1) ASH efficiency drops dramatically at very low temperatures, and it stops working altogether at around -6degC. So you would still need convection heaters as a last gasp defence against extreme temperatures. The more expensive ASH systems have this built in.

+-) Almost all ASH systems also work in reverse as aircon. That might be a great selling point for your holiday let. But also might be quite expensive if guests go out and leave it switched on all day.

Gryff

[Clariman]

I just thought about how I would try to avoid the charges, automate the process, avoid replacing the storage radiators and suggesting a way to address the three key issues you listed in your original post.

“..there is no 'frost-protection'", "read the meter from time to time" and "I cannot control the heating remotely".

You've got me thinking, thanks. So I could set it to 'normal' occupied mode when guests are in - and a 'holiday' mode when there are no guests. The holiday mode would have the storage heater power supply switched off but a program would switch it on if the next day's weather forecast was cold enough to invalidate my buildings insurance or cause potential pipe freezing. The only thing that could not be controlled would be the storage heater's input and output dials, but I could probably live with that. That would also give guests the opportunity to control it for their own comfort.

The webcam for the meter isn't really practical because it is external and in a box so would be at risk of getting nicked and would be too dark to read it.

[Clariman]

Timeguard provide a simple Android/Apple interface to set on and off schedules, holiday modes and permanent on/off. This is OK but the product also can be used with IFTTT (Wiki) which allows deeper automation for example by switching on the timer/switch when the outside temperature drops below some value. It's also possible to automate on the weather forecast for example here. It appeals to me to only switch the storage radiators on during the E7 period during the night before a predicted cold snap (Weather Underground works with IFTTT and produces UK forecasts).

Hi Sobraon

Are you sure about the above?? The product info makes no mention of IFTTT integration on Amazon or Timeguard's own website, and at least 3 Amazon reviews and one Amazon Q&A bemoan the fact that IFTTT integration is not supported.

[AF62]

Because we have storage heaters, our insurer mandates that we turn-off the water stop-cock during the winter when unoccupied.... because there is no 'frost-protection' setting or equivalent. This means we have to pay our managing agent to do this before and after lets during the winter months, which costs us £25 a time.

You can now buy internet connected stop-cocks - http://www.surestop.co.uk/iot-connect

[Clariman]

Because we have storage heaters, our insurer mandates that we turn-off the water stop-cock during the winter when unoccupied.... because there is no 'frost-protection' setting or equivalent. This means we have to pay our managing agent to do this before and after lets during the winter months, which costs us £25 a time.

You can now buy internet connected stop-cocks - http://www.surestop.co.uk/iot-connect

Indeed. I think we drain it too but I must check our insurance Ts and Cs and what the agent does for us.

[Sobraon]

[
Are you sure about the above?? The product info makes no mention of IFTTT integration on Amazon or Timeguard's own website, and at least 3 Amazon reviews and one Amazon Q&A bemoan the fact that IFTTT integration is not supported.

No , only going on what I had read on an internet forum somewhere . However, I did write an "Automate" program (fiber) yesterday to well ... automate the Timeguard app on my phone. If Timeguard are playing at silly B's with the API then Sonoff maybe an alternative but that probably means going Chinese unless there is a formal UK agent.

[Clariman]

Interesting. I've just checked policies for the 2 properties that I have. The one with storage heaters doesn't have any endorsements for Winter, but the property with Hive controlled central heating does! So I can manage the one I need to manage for insurance purposes already. Nevertheless, it would still be useful to be able to switch the other property's heating and immersion from afar.

C

[Clariman]

Because we have storage heaters, our insurer mandates that we turn-off the water stop-cock during the winter when unoccupied.... because there is no 'frost-protection' setting or equivalent. This means we have to pay our managing agent to do this before and after lets during the winter months, which costs us £25 a time.

You can now buy internet connected stop-cocks - http://www.surestop.co.uk/iot-connect

Even if you turn the stopcock off, isn't there still water in the pipes?

Just been reading up on all of this again. Yes there is still water in the pipes, but what turning the stopcock off means is that you only get one lot of water, rather than a constant supply of it.