Gas Boiler Extinction

[gryffron]

As for the boiler ours is oil. They haven't mentioned banning those (yet!).

If you're running on oil rather than gas, then the argument for ASHP is pretty much a one way bet already. As it will be much cheaper to run than oil-CH.

If you're on mains gas, then the economics are much closer. Gas still just about has its nose in the lead at this moment.

Gryff

[Gan020]

I am not convinced about turning off the gas to existing properties is the way to go. I get the all new properties won't have any as ASHP will work very well for new well instulated homes.

I have a 1960's house which was initially very poory insulated when I bought it. I had an ASHP installed about 10 years ago to my existing radiators. About half of my radiators had to be changed due to the lower temperature output of the ASHP.

The challenge with the ASHP is that there's a big difference between the amount of energy it takes to raise the termperature of the house from say 15c to 22c, than to mantain the temperature at 22c, so what becomes most important is how fast the house loses heat overnight.

I've done the cavity wall insulation, all my windows are double glazed, when the flat roof got old when renewing it I had a thick layer of insulation placed on that, I have curtains on every window but it's like chasing a never ending problem on production line when as soon as you fix one thing you realise that whilst part of the line will go at 1000 widgets an hour, another constraint arrives which continues to restrict your speed to lower than that.

I have some walls left to insulate but my biggest problem is becoming the floor. Not much I can do to insulate the floor unless I dig up it up and that seems a step too far.

Oh and some things will take you by surprise. For a number of years my ASHP seemed to get less and less effective at heating the house which didn't make much sense from a technical point of view. Eventually I worked out replacing a 100w light bult (which emitted say 1w of light and 99w of heat) by a new 3w LED one (which emits 1w of light and 2w of heat say) meant my heat pump was having to provide the equivalent of an extra 95w for every 100w bulb I changed. Obviously I didn't have many 100w, but I had plenty of 40w and 60w. And surprise surprise you only have the lights on in the evening or very early morning when it's dark and that's the time it's coldest so that's the time you need the ASHP most.
So, we are all being told switching to LED bulbs is what we need to do and I agree but I suspect the energy savings aren't as much as people think if it means as you have to turn your boiler up to compensate.

[staffordian]

My concerns for the future apply to both domestic gas and to petrol and diesel supplies.

There must surely come a tipping point when demand for these becomes such that it is uneconomic to maintain a network.

Once this happens, what becomes of those for whom the alternatives are not suitable?

I can't see that any company will maintain hundreds of miles of underground piping, replace worn out connections to domestic properties and so on when there is even just a modest reduction in the number of connected properties. It will become uneconomic for them, or too dear for those left connected to share the cost of maintaining the infrastructure.

I suppose the situation for filling stations is less critical as numbers will naturally change in line with demand, as they have done for many years as supermarkets muscle in, but even so, I forsee a point when refining and distributing fuel will become too costly for the smaller demand and at that point, everyone will have to swap to another fuel source whether or not they want to, or are able to.

I just hope suitable progress will have been made on the alternatives before this happens.

Anyone else have thoughts on these scenarios?

[gryffron]

My concerns for the future apply to both domestic gas and to petrol and diesel supplies.
Anyone else have thoughts on these scenarios?

It is still possible to buy high grade coal for steam locomotives. Diesel engines were originally invented to run on veg oil. Biopetrol is somewhat harder and more expensive to synthesise, but easily possible with current technology, and will only get easier.

I think it will be a very very long time before these fuels cease to be available, even before the last oil refinery on the planet closes.

The gas grid might disappear eventually I suppose. But I don't anticipate that being for many decades.

Gryff

[JohnB]

There is still a strong market supplying horses with fodder. You can still buy Calor gas and coal, even paraffin. Its just making the townie world more like that of the country.

[staffordian]

My concerns for the future apply to both domestic gas and to petrol and diesel supplies.
Anyone else have thoughts on these scenarios?

It is still possible to buy high grade coal for steam locomotives. Diesel engines were originally invented to run on veg oil. Biopetrol is somewhat harder and more expensive to synthesise, but easily possible with current technology, and will only get easier.

I think it will be a very very long time before these fuels cease to be available, even before the last oil refinery on the planet closes.

The gas grid might disappear eventually I suppose. But I don't anticipate that being for many decades.

Gryff

Good points, though the preservation movement is very worried about the future availability of suitable coal as the last remaining opencast sites follow the deep mines into oblivion.

Power stations etc tend to use pulverised rather than large lump coal and importing steam coal in the small quantities needed will be prohibitively expensive.

I wonder if motorists will again have to buy tins of Pratts Perfection Motor Spirit from their local chemist before too long

[gryffron]

I wonder if motorists will again have to buy tins of Pratts Perfection Motor Spirit from their local chemist before too long

You mean like the long available Additive for engines requiring leaded petrol

[staffordian]

Everyone I talk to scoffs at my Economy 7 storage heaters, but I love them. In fact, I'm upgrading the 30 year old ones that I have to modern more efficient and controllable Dimplex Quantum storage heaters in the springtime.

It's a pretty easy switch - the 2 replacements will cost about £1400 + about £100 for the sparky to wire them in. The rest I can do myself(not that there's too much to do). They are supposed to be about 25% more efficient than the current old ones I have installed and probably more because of the age of them.

They're clean, silent & need no maintenance. People say they can't control them but you can. You really just have to keep an eye on the weather. The water is heated overnight too. A replacement water heater element costs about £12 and a thermostat £6. Both are pretty easy replacement jobs for a DIY'r

People say that they heat the house when your not there. That's true, but the house it kept at a steady temperature. On the coldest evenings, a top up from the convector is required. The Quantums should address that problem in the future though - they're much better insulated and they even come with a control app for your phone.

We don't heat the whole house the whole of the time (we leave the internal doors open during the day though) and we have modern windows and doors. We only have 100mm of loft insulation presently, but that will be increased significantly come the warmer weather.

I live in the NE of Scotland, I'm all electric and live in a 3 bed semi. If we're talking numbers, I pay £72 a month to Scottish Power and I'm in credit.

And I guess if our future energy is going to come from wind turbines, nukes and possibly tidal, both of which generate 24/7 then I think there's a future for this type of heating. I'm guessing they could also be charged during the day from home solar too.

I think you are probably right.

As others have said, ASHPs are perhaps a partial answer; OK for some and perhaps OK in conjunction with something else for others, but individual smart internet controlled storage heaters instead of "wet system" radiators do sound like a pretty universally practical option.

It's not something I've looked into in any detail but I gather there are some far slimmer and more efficient heat storage systems around these days compared to the huge concrete filled monstrosities most people associate with storage heaters.

[JohnB]

We have 3 storage radiators, 1 from the 1960s, 2 from the 1970s, powered by 9-hour White Meter tariff. As we are in all day, they have merit, and of course none of the capital and servicing cost 3 generations of gas boilers would have had.

[UncleEbenezer]

"almost" a foot deep? I'm sure the ones we used to sit on as sixth-formers - the year our form classroom was in a building modern enough to have them - were bigger than that.

Funnily enough that came back to be just yesterday, when I heard some new Hitchhikers Guide stuff on the radio - HHGTTG was being broadcast for the first time when I was in that classroom. The episode could almost have been Adams - if he'd lived on and continued working after exhausting his ideas - but the big disappointment was the new voice of Marvin.

[DrFfybes]

I live in the NE of Scotland, I'm all electric and live in a 3 bed semi. If we're talking numbers, I pay £72 a month to Scottish Power and I'm in credit.

And I guess if our future energy is going to come from wind turbines, nukes and possibly tidal, both of which generate 24/7 then I think there's a future for this type of heating. I'm guessing they could also be charged during the day from home solar too.

I guess that is broadly inline with other similar houses in your area on Gas? We're in the Southwest so warmer and bills are quite a lot lower than my sister pays Oop North.

I had storage heaters in a flat in the 80s, and the problem was that on a warm day they were too warm at night, and on a cold day needed a top up. You had to keep an eye on the forecast and adjust them a lot. More recently we had new ones at work (mainly as a few of the old ones had failed completely and the rest were all cold by 2pm in winter) and they seemed a lot more adjustable. I can't see how they can be more "efficient" - they turn electricity into heat and Newton's laws still apply, but the ability to keep heat inside until needed later was much improved.

It is your last point that I think is the solution - solar panels to top them up during the cold days (assuming you get enough sun in winter) would mean not needing to use expensive electricity to heat the house in the evening, which would make them more palatable.

I'm finding all this particularly interesting as we've had an offer accepted on an exposed house built between 1850 and 1986 so not ideally insulated and difficult to improve a lot of it without cladding or major disruption, but the vendors have included a bit of adjacent land they had for a business. This is a south facing triangle 30m long and 20m wide (tapering down to 5m) and backing onto arable land so no tree roots, unlike the rest of the plot. The boiler in the place is 30+ years old (mains gas which is a surprise given the location) and we're pondering options for Ground Source under the plot, solar panels, possible a small turbine (not my favourite as it is close to the house and they can be noisy), and if these can be used to pre-heat the heating system to reduce gas use in winter. As we'll be doing some roof works hen that can be improved by a "warm roof" so that should help.

Early days yet, still waiting for the survey, but I can see a project on the horizon.

Paul

[PrincessB]

I've been to a couple of forums at home shows over the last few weeks and the advice has been that if you have access to mains gas install a boiler.

The legislation indicates a ban on installing gas boilers in new builds from 2025 so in theory, the supply of replacement boilers for use in properties that already have one will remain good for a good number years after 2025.

I'm planning a new build, and I'm comfortable with fitting a gas boiler provided I can actually start work before 2025.

B.

[Mike4]

Trouble right now is, I have a gas boiler on its last legs, and the only feasible replacement seems to be a new gas boiler

Do tell, what make and model is it? I'll give you potted summary of whether that is really the case. Most boilers 'on their last legs' are nothing of the sort.

[Howard]

Trouble right now is, I have a gas boiler on its last legs, and the only feasible replacement seems to be a new gas boiler

Do tell, what make and model is it? I'll give you potted summary of whether that is really the case. Most boilers 'on their last legs' are nothing of the sort.

Mike,I know your practical advice will be valuable.

Before I read your views on this forum, British Gas persuaded me that my Potterton boiler was on its last legs and using too much gas. It was replaced (by a less expensive local contractor, but for a significant sum). The new condensing boiler uses almost as much gas as before. I have been told that the Potterton was a little like Trigger's Broom and just needed a new part occasionally to keep working well. I doubt if new boiler's modest saving in gas will ever produce a payback.

regards

Howard

[Dod101]

What is meant by ASHP? I have not the slightest idea what this thread is about without that as the basic knowledge.
I have an old oil fired boiler which does the job is very expensive to run.

Dod

[Mike4]

Howard, that's a shame. BG (or any of the large companies) will have you believe any boiler more than half an hour old is inefficient, gobbles gas, is hard to get parts for and in dire need of replacement. Rarely is this true as you have found.

Thing is, their sales department employ gas registered technicians as their lead generators. They arrive ostensibly to service your boiler, but their primary goal is to find something wrong with it and label it up as dangerous and send a saleman around to quote for a new one. If they can't manage to condemn it then they scare you with stories about how you can't get the parts and its wasting gas and guess what, you should let them send a bloke around to quote you for a new one....

Cynical? Moi?

[Mike4]

What is meant by ASHP? I have not the slightest idea what this thread is about without that as the basic knowledge.
I have an old oil fired boiler which does the job is very expensive to run.

Dod

"Air source heat pump".

All oil boilers are similar in efficiency. Modern condensing oil boilers will burn less fuel but need more servicing, I think...

Keep your old oil boiler until the heat exchanger rusts through, which they normally do eventually. The burner assembly is a stock item easily replaced. Many oil boiler breakdowns are tank/oil supply/filter related rather than the boiler itself.

[Dod101]

What is meant by ASHP? I have not the slightest idea what this thread is about without that as the basic knowledge.
I have an old oil fired boiler which does the job is very expensive to run.

Dod

"Air source heat pump".

All oil boilers are similar in efficiency. Modern condensing oil boilers will burn less fuel but need more servicing, I think...

Keep your old oil boiler until the heat exchanger rusts through, which they normally do eventually. The burner assembly is a stock item easily replaced. Many oil boiler breakdowns are tank/oil supply/filter related rather than the boiler itself.

Thanks. That is basically what my engineer tells me; just keep it as long as it is functioning well. I have no intention of installing or even seriously thinking about an ASHP. I also have a large log burning stove which is very effective in heating the main living area so I will probably just keep that combination going.

Dod

[UncleEbenezer]

Trouble right now is, I have a gas boiler on its last legs, and the only feasible replacement seems to be a new gas boiler

Do tell, what make and model is it? I'll give you potted summary of whether that is really the case. Most boilers 'on their last legs' are nothing of the sort.

It's a Baxi Combi 80Eco.

My surveyor said it needs replacing in his report back in the summer. Its somewhat-dodgy performance supplying hot water to the bath and shower tend to confirm the need to replace it soon.

[Mike4]

Trouble right now is, I have a gas boiler on its last legs, and the only feasible replacement seems to be a new gas boiler

Do tell, what make and model is it? I'll give you potted summary of whether that is really the case. Most boilers 'on their last legs' are nothing of the sort.

It's a Baxi Combi 80Eco.

My surveyor said it needs replacing in his report back in the summer. Its somewhat-dodgy performance supplying hot water to the bath and shower tend to confirm the need to replace it soon.

Ok, a really common, cheap-as-chips boiler sold in the millions, widely understood and easy to fix. Probably about 15+ years old and only discontinued in 2005 due to condensing boilers becoming mandatory. A fundamentally well proven design but with known weaknesses.

Being a combi is is desperately susceptible to water scale contamination of the domestic heat exchanger (if installed in a hard water area) but the most common faults/weaknesses are the diverter valve gumming up and needing replacing on a regular basis, and the heat sensor (thermistor) failing, sometimes intermittently.

It sounds to me as though yours just needs a new diverter and heat sensor. A New Baxi branded diverter is nosebleed money (£300!) but clones are around for £100-ish. Care needs to be taken as there are persistent stories about some of the clones not actually fitting and being a waste of money. A service kit can be purchased to rebuild the existing diverter which turns it into a very cheap but time-consuming repair. The heat sensor is a five minute job to replace at the same time as fixing the diverter.

All in all a 'Ford Escort' of a boiler. Easily fixed but sometimes expensive to fix, a but like all boilers really. Fixing it will always be far cheaper and quicker than a new boiler. On the other hand a new boiler with a ten year guarantee might be a Good Idea if you plan to stay in the house long term.