Changing from bathroom ceiling rose to LED

[vrdiver]

Hoping this is a simple question!

I want to change the existing light fitting in the bathroom, but the new light (an LED ring) has only two connections - Live and Neutral, whereas the old light was a three-way loop (but with four cable-ends protruding from the ceiling?).

The cabling is from 1993/1994 (so old wiring colours).


The "live" wire is the top centre red wire above (as in: live when the wall switch is switched off). The yellow wire is the "live" wire from the switch.
connected as:
Which I want to reconfigure to suit:


Advice appreciated!

VRD

[Itsallaguess]

Normally in those situations, you move the ceiling rose connections (which are basically acting as a little junction box in that lighting circuit...) up into the ceiling void or loft space, and then just have the live and neutral cable that went to the old pendant light (what looks like the bottom brown and blue wire in your second photo...) entering the bathroom and terminating at the new light terminals.

You're not going to want to replicate the ceiling-rose connections inside a small light fitting terminal box, although sometimes it's possible to do so where the terminal space is large enough, so if there's not enough room to do that, just put it on the other side of the ceiling.....installed in accordance with the latest electrical regulations etc., of course, and then bring the live and neutral for the light itself from that position down into the new bathroom light...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[vrdiver]

Normally in those situations, you move the ceiling rose connections (which are basically acting as a little junction box in that lighting circuit...) up into the ceiling void or loft space, and then just have the live and neutral cable that went to the old pendant light (what looks like the bottom brown and blue wire in your second photo...) entering the bathroom and terminating at the new light terminals.

Thanks for that. The loft space above this fitting is a bit of a pain (crawl/wriggle access) but I think that's my best option.

VRD

[staffordian]

Normally in those situations, you move the ceiling rose connections (which are basically acting as a little junction box in that lighting circuit...) up into the ceiling void or loft space, and then just have the live and neutral cable that went to the old pendant light (what looks like the bottom brown and blue wire in your second photo...) entering the bathroom and terminating at the new light terminals.

Thanks for that. The loft space above this fitting is a bit of a pain (crawl/wriggle access) but I think that's my best option.

VRD

Is it not possible to make the necessary connections etc from below and push them up into the void, enlarging the existing hole very slightly if needed?

I'm assuming you will use separate connectors for each set of cables.

[csearle]

Is it not possible to make the necessary connections etc from below and push them up into the void, enlarging the existing hole very slightly if needed?

Yes that is the quickest way, if the "footprint" of the new fitting is large enough. Sometimes though the cables come through a small hole in a noggin or a joist and poking stuff up there can be tricky or impossible. In that case if you* can't get above there in the loft then it is usually possible to enlarge the existing hole (or make your own) in the back of the fitting so the wires poke inside. In this case connect together all the reds, and separately all the blacks, and use some new bits of wire inside there to connect the yellow (with the red sleeve on it) to L and the blacks to N.

Chris
* When I say "you" I obviously mean vrdiver.

[vrdiver]

Sometimes though the cables come through a small hole in a noggin or a joist and poking stuff up there can be tricky or impossible.

Did you install the original?

Indeed, the wires are routed through a wooden batten that I'd have to drill out to widen enough to receive a connector for the cables; I can get into the space to pull the cables up, connect them and then drop the two required wires back down, albeit I am now have a better understanding of why electricians earn their hourly rate - based on how uncomfortable a work space it is!

VRD

[Dod101]

You know what? My answer to the problem is to get an electrician in to do the change, if necessary waiting until this Coronavirus thing is over.

If I knew that someone had been mucking around with electrics before I bought the place and got his electrics education through a chat site I would be very nervous. And in a bathroom?

Dod

[jfgw]

You know what? My answer to the problem is to get an electrician in to do the change, if necessary waiting until this Coronavirus thing is over.

If I knew that someone had been mucking around with electrics before I bought the place and got his electrics education through a chat site I would be very nervous. And in a bathroom?

I have more faith in someone who knows basically what he is doing and seeks advice than I do in the average builder who, for example, replaces some lights as part of a bathroom or kitchen job. I suspect that most homes have wiring which is not up to standard, especially when ceiling roses or batten lampholders have been replaced with different types of lights.

Fit the connections inside a box. These WAGO ones are designed for use with WAGO connectors but you can fit other types in there, https://www.screwfix.com/p/wagobox-junction-box/7355f .

Julian F. G. W.

[vrdiver]

You know what? My answer to the problem is to get an electrician in to do the change, if necessary waiting until this Coronavirus thing is over.

If I knew that someone had been mucking around with electrics before I bought the place and got his electrics education through a chat site I would be very nervous. And in a bathroom?

Dod

...but I watched a youtube video as well!

More seriously, I half-agree with you. Having found some very bodged jobs in previous properties, from just poor craftsmanship to downright bodgery.

However, I differentiate between jobs that are conceptually simple but just need instructions, and those where time-served skill and craftsmanship is required. Some people (perhaps generally younger than us) would baulk at changing a plug or fuse, or feel incapable of hanging a door or cabling a router extension etc. etc. whilst others would consider these tasks trivial; it really depends on the individual (IMHO).

I promise to make it tidy (and safe) and not just leave the wires wrapped in masking tape under the loft insulation - for my sake!

But your cautionary advice is noted and appreciated.

VRD

[Dod101]

Actually, it is of course none of my business but I am really hopeless at most DIY jobs except gardening and I like to think, redecoration. Obviously I can change a plug and understand fuses in plugs perfectly well but when it comes to plumbing or electrics, I leave it to others who may or may not know what they are doing.

Dod

[csearle]

Actually, it is of course none of my business but I am really hopeless at most DIY jobs except gardening and I like to think, redecoration. Obviously I can change a plug and understand fuses in plugs perfectly well but when it comes to plumbing or electrics, I leave it to others who may or may not know what they are doing.

Thank heavens Dod otherwise we electricians would be out of business! I personally am in favour of everyone doing-it-themselves once they appreciate what they are doing and how they are supposed to be doing it.

Chris

[AF62]

Well, I can tell you exactly what NOT to do!

Some years ago I bought a house which had been previously owned by a DIY incompetent (although I didn't realise it when I bought it).

When the DIY idiot fitted some spotlights like this, with only a live an neutral, what did he do with the other connections. He decided to twist the connections together and push the bare copper wire into plastic rawlplugs and stuff the mess into the ceiling void.

Incredibly that wasn't the most stupid thing they did.

The prize goes to the wiring for the electric shower. It wasn't working when I moved it but I wasn't bothered as I was refitting the bathroom. In doing that work and some in the next door bedroom, I found he had run the 10mm cable from the shower into the loft, over the rafters and then down into the bedroom behind a really manky false wall partition.

However he had bought too short a length of 10mm cable to reach the fuse box. Hmm. So how did he resolve that?

Well he used a table lamp flex connector to join the two lengths of 10mm cable. But 10mm cable doesn't fit into a table lamp flex connector so he cut away 90% of the 10mm cable to fit what they could into the connector.

Over time the connection from the fuse box had dropped out, so a live wire directly connected to the fuse box was floating around lose behind the false wall.

[csearle]

Did you install the original?

Cheeky noodle!

Chris

[csearle]

Well, I can tell you exactly what NOT to do!

That certainly sounds about right. The trouble is that if one's standards are that if it works then it is fine then one might be quite happy with rubbish like this. Most of the wiring regs are devoted to safety rather than function.

I'd say the two most common bodges are:

1.
Using the switched live from the downstairs hall light as one connection to the landing light but using the neutral of the upstairs lighting circuit for the other.

2.
Skimping on 3-core and Earth cable to implement the hall/landing two-waying by using twin and earth but using the (bare) Earth connection as one of the live connections.

Chris

[DrFfybes]

The prize goes to the wiring for the electric shower. It wasn't working when I moved it but I wasn't bothered as I was refitting the bathroom. In doing that work and some in the next door bedroom, I found he had run the 10mm cable from the shower into the loft, over the rafters and then down into the bedroom behind a really manky false wall partition.

However he had bought too short a length of 10mm cable to reach the fuse box. Hmm. So how did he resolve that?

What a lot of work. The 'electrician' who did the house I bought in Plymouth sumply connected the 7.5kW shower to the downstairs lighting ring (usng a 13A circular junction box) and then replaced the 5A MCB with a 30A one.

Paul

[AF62]

The prize goes to the wiring for the electric shower. It wasn't working when I moved it but I wasn't bothered as I was refitting the bathroom. In doing that work and some in the next door bedroom, I found he had run the 10mm cable from the shower into the loft, over the rafters and then down into the bedroom behind a really manky false wall partition.

However he had bought too short a length of 10mm cable to reach the fuse box. Hmm. So how did he resolve that?

What a lot of work. The 'electrician' who did the house I bought in Plymouth sumply connected the 7.5kW shower to the downstairs lighting ring (usng a 13A circular junction box) and then replaced the 5A MCB with a 30A one.

Well I suppose there was an added benefit in winter with the ring lighting cable warming the rooms when you used the shower!

[csearle]

The 'electrician' who did the house I bought in Plymouth sumply connected the 7.5kW shower to the downstairs lighting ring (usng a 13A circular junction box) and then replaced the 5A MCB with a 30A one.

Brilliant, why didn't I think of that. That must save such a lot of time. I'll be able to put my prices down.

Chris

[SteelCamel]

Normally in those situations, you move the ceiling rose connections (which are basically acting as a little junction box in that lighting circuit...) up into the ceiling void or loft space, and then just have the live and neutral cable that went to the old pendant light (what looks like the bottom brown and blue wire in your second photo...) entering the bathroom and terminating at the new light terminals.

Thanks for that. The loft space above this fitting is a bit of a pain (crawl/wriggle access) but I think that's my best option.
VRD

If you don't want to do that, you could replace the rose with a junction box, then install the new light next to it. It's up to you if having a junction box on the bathroom ceiling is acceptable from an appearance point of view. I'd be inclined to use something with a decent IP rating like https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WK108W.html rather than the usual circular junction box - the lid can rotate on the circular ones leaving a gap in the unused cable entries.

[vrdiver]

All done now. I took IAAG's suggestion and moved the ceiling rose into the loft-space and then lowered extended Live and Neutral wires down to fit the new light.
Now that's done, I've become aware of some loft insulation that could be topped up, so one job ticked off, but another added to the list!

VRD