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Getting a new boiler

Does what it says on the tin
UncleEbenezer
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Getting a new boiler

#381946

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 29th, 2021, 3:03 pm

OK, too many cold showers. I can nurse the boiler into giving me hot water only by running the heating for a while, and even that's getting trickier. Getting the boiler serviced didn't help. I may not be able to wait 'til the summer for that river-source heat pump! :cry:

A bit of looking online is encouraging: lots of companies offer a new gas combi-boiler at fixed prices including installation at pretty short notice, and with a bunch of useful-looking extras. Some of them also offer much longer warranty periods than the manufacturers at no extra charge. Examples: boilercentral.com, warmzilla.co.uk. An example package includes all of

flue kit
thermostat
heating system cleanse
magnetic system filter
chemical inhibitor

over and above installing the new boiler and disposing of the old one.

Looks attractive, but is there a downside? Am I losing anything compared to asking either a local plumber (if I can find one half as quickly as they promise) or getting installation from the manufacturer at a rather higher price?

And if boilercentral offers a 12 or 15 year warranty to a manufacturer's 5 years, is that backed by anyone, or in general worth the paper it's written on?

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382006

Postby tjh290633 » January 29th, 2021, 4:31 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:OK, too many cold showers. I can nurse the boiler into giving me hot water only by running the heating for a while, and even that's getting trickier. Getting the boiler serviced didn't help. I may not be able to wait 'til the summer for that river-source heat pump! :cry:

Are you sure that it is the boiler? Sounds more like the 3-way valve to me.

Having your boiler serviced is usually a recipe for problems.

TJH

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382033

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 29th, 2021, 5:55 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:OK, too many cold showers. I can nurse the boiler into giving me hot water only by running the heating for a while, and even that's getting trickier. Getting the boiler serviced didn't help. I may not be able to wait 'til the summer for that river-source heat pump! :cry:

Are you sure that it is the boiler? Sounds more like the 3-way valve to me.


I don't even know what the 3-way valve is, let alone how to find it and check for problems (presumably it's part of the boiler?). If I still have a problem after the boiler has been serviced then I'm not exactly well-placed to fix it, and I fear that educating myself in a hurry might be unwise.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382063

Postby Mike4 » January 29th, 2021, 7:03 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:OK, too many cold showers. I can nurse the boiler into giving me hot water only by running the heating for a while, and even that's getting trickier. Getting the boiler serviced didn't help. I may not be able to wait 'til the summer for that river-source heat pump! :cry:

Are you sure that it is the boiler? Sounds more like the 3-way valve to me.

Having your boiler serviced is usually a recipe for problems.

TJH


I've an idea UncleE has a combi boiler so no three way valve.

What make and (exact) model of boiler do you have, Uncle?

You have two independent faults IIRC. Your loss of system pressure and intermittent hot water failure.

System pressure loss is water leaking from the system. Can be complex and difficult to trace and may well not be the boiler - i.e. the problem might persist after getting a new boiler and will quite possibly be nothing to do with any boiler guarantee you get.

Intermittent hot water (especially if it cycles on and off regularly is crud in the domestic heat exchanger. You need a new one and inspect the old to see why, then address the problem you see.

I'm not surprised a service made no difference. You should have said to the firm "I have these two problems I want fixed...."

(Edit to add the bit about water leaking...)

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382067

Postby Mike4 » January 29th, 2021, 7:26 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Looks attractive, but is there a downside?


All those things you list you'd expect to get anyway, one of them is actually mandatory.

The downside is short-cutting. The big firms employ subcontractors often from hundreds of miles away and pay them peanuts to throw in a boiler in a day. Plumbers who take this type of work are scathingly called "box-slingers" in the trade. Holding a firm like this to account for problems emerging after the fit can be the Devil's own job because the firms expect the self-employed fitters to return to site for no payment, and quite often they simply refuse, preferring to carry on box-slinging for their £300 a day until the backlog of complaints causes the firm to stop giving them work. You in the meantime, suffer failed promises to fix the problem(s).

The biggest of all these firms is missing from your list, and they have a really slick and engaging website and customer offering

https://www.boxt.co.uk/

These people are in bed with Worcester Bosch it is said. Part owned by Worcester apparently and their biggest single customer. I dunno how they handle the call-backs.

Local plumbers are gonna be way more expensive because they (sometimes!) take a lot more time over an installation and actually care about getting it right. Also they have to pay normal trade price for a boiler (approaching £1k these days) instead of the £250 it is rumoured boxt pay, such is their buying power.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382121

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 29th, 2021, 11:19 pm

Mike4 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:OK, too many cold showers. I can nurse the boiler into giving me hot water only by running the heating for a while, and even that's getting trickier. Getting the boiler serviced didn't help. I may not be able to wait 'til the summer for that river-source heat pump! :cry:

Are you sure that it is the boiler? Sounds more like the 3-way valve to me.

Having your boiler serviced is usually a recipe for problems.

TJH


I've an idea UncleE has a combi boiler so no three way valve.

What make and (exact) model of boiler do you have, Uncle?

It's a Baxi Combi 80Eco.

You have two independent faults IIRC. Your loss of system pressure and intermittent hot water failure.


Are they independent, or symptoms of common underlying troubles?

System pressure loss is water leaking from the system. Can be complex and difficult to trace and may well not be the boiler - i.e. the problem might persist after getting a new boiler and will quite possibly be nothing to do with any boiler guarantee you get.

Indeed. I don't *think* it's a leak (I've looked hard at the radiators, and for damp patches), but one advantage of the prospective heatpump is some more extensive re-plumbing that should further reduce that risk. I'd love to rid the downstairs of radiators and put it all under the floors!

Intermittent hot water (especially if it cycles on and off regularly is crud in the domestic hest exchanger. You need a new one and inspect the old to see why, then address the problem you see.

That chimes with something the plumber who serviced it said, but I didn't entirely follow. He turned the heating higher than I ever would, and noted that the burner went on and off several times as it warmed up - which is *probably* a facet of the same problem as my shower. He didn't suggest replacing it, but did say my boiler was running inefficiently - which I could live with if it's just for a few months before getting that heat pump!

I'm not surprised a service made no difference. You should have said to the firm "I have these two problems I want fixed...."


Probably yes. But the problem with cold showers only just became serious. Basically it was the post-christmas cold snap that caused me serious concern when I turned the heating on (as in, was it producing carbon monoxide? was it at risk of other major disaster? - better get this serviced), and it was when the cold snap ended and I turned the heating off that the problem with cold showers appeared.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382125

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 29th, 2021, 11:30 pm

Mike4 wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:
Looks attractive, but is there a downside?


All those things you list you'd expect to get anyway, one of them is actually mandatory.


Glad to see you say that. I also looked at the Worcester Bosch website and it wasn't clear there.

The downside is short-cutting. The big firms employ subcontractors often from hundreds of miles away and pay them peanuts to throw in a boiler in a day. Plumbers who take this type of work are scathingly called "box-slingers" in the trade. Holding a firm like this to account for problems emerging after the fit can be the Devil's own job because the firms expect the self-employed fitters to return to site for no payment, and quite often they simply refuse, preferring to carry on box-slinging for their £300 a day until the backlog of complaints causes the firm to stop giving them work. You in the meantime, suffer failed promises to fix the problem(s).


Thanks for confirming my suspicions. So basically it's taking a chance: probably I'll be fine, but the risk is ugly. On the other hand, if I get a local fitter I'm again taking a chance. And if I pay an extra 10% to order from Worcester Bosch I'm taking much the same chance, yesno?

(I'm leaning towards the greenstar 25i, which from the picture looks like the WB combi boiler in my last rented place that always worked beautifully).

https://www.boxt.co.uk/

These people are in bed with Worcester Bosch it is said. Part owned by Worcester apparently and their biggest single customer. I dunno how they handle the call-backs.


One to look at, thanks. I think they appeared in my google search, but for some reason I hit the back button.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382138

Postby Mike4 » January 30th, 2021, 3:28 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Thanks for confirming my suspicions. So basically it's taking a chance: probably I'll be fine, but the risk is ugly. On the other hand, if I get a local fitter I'm again taking a chance. And if I pay an extra 10% to order from Worcester Bosch I'm taking much the same chance, yesno?


Yes to the first two questions. Dunno about the third, I didn't realise WB would deal directly with the public.

(I'm leaning towards the greenstar 25i, which from the picture looks like the WB combi boiler in my last rented place that always worked beautifully).


Middle of the night unedited brain dump:

Be wary of buying WB. Within the trade they are "Marmite boilers". Few capable tradesmen are ambivalent about them, the WB lovers are usually the fully committed to being WB box slingers often selling hundreds a year each. WB support their box slingers very well with installer training, quantity rebates, free WB clothing, footy tickets, site radios etc, and also expert marketing promoting the brand so selling a WB is like pushing water downhill. You recommend a WB and the customer hooks this up in their mind with the constant mentions of how good WB are in the media and instantly decides this bloke knows his stuff as he is recommending WB. What is actually happening is the bod knows this and I suspect is chasing the next level of quantity threshold for a bigger rebate, currently just out of reach. WB also support installers with their "Worcester Approved Installer" scheme where people approaching WB directly for a boiler get their name passed on to local WAIs and vice versa.

The WB haters (like me) tend to be the menders rather than the installers, or the low volume independent installers with no particular brand loyalty. As a fixer, and like a LOT of capable boiler fixers I simply refuse to attend Worcesters, mainly because it is so difficult to achieve a one-visit-fix. But also because they are nothing outstanding technically and break down just like all the others. Poor attention to details that make technicians avoid them include pressure relief valves (a common fail point) in shockingly difficult places inside the boiler that sometimes require removal of the boiler from the wall, and razor sharp edges so you suddenly notice all this red water leaking everywhere, actually coming from razor cut on your hand you never noticed happening. But in particular there are SO MANY differing WB models it is hard to identify the boiler in advance from customer information (which model of Worcester do you have Sir? Ok a Greenstar, thank you but there are well over 100 models of Greenstar by WB. Which model of Greenstar do you have please? Oh it doesn't say?) meaning there is no chance of phone-diagnosis and turning up with the right parts.

One excellent reason to buy WB though is their after sales support. If/when you need to call on their long guarantee their service guys have a good reputation and will generally fix anything even if it is a fault arguably caused by poor installation. Other manus will blame the installer and walk away saying it isn't a boiler fault when called out under guarantee, or provide awful guarantee support in any number of other ways. It is this way because the UK consumer buys mainly on price and when there is little profit margin, the manus can't afford to provide good guarantee support. WB at least are trying a different approach - expert marketing of pedestrian boilers so they can sell at higher prices and look after their customers better.

Every heating bod you ask will express strong opinions about WB, as I have prolly just demonstrated!

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382163

Postby Mike4 » January 30th, 2021, 10:28 am

Oh and I forgot to mention the main reason some in the trade don't like Worcesters. The left and right 'hydroblocks' which are usually brass castings in combi boilers, are plastic mouldings in Worcesters and occasionally do what you might expect - crack and leak.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382172

Postby sg31 » January 30th, 2021, 11:05 am

I've had 3 Vaillant boilers now in different properties. I've never had an engineer out to repair any of them. They get serviced every year and have a 10 year warranty.

I always use local engineers to fit the boilers and have an on going relationship with them as they also service the boiler.

Previously when I had Sime Halstead boilers I had the engineer out several times a year to one or other property (rentals) I saw him so often we became good friends and I got a frequent customer discount.

The best thing I ever did was switch to Vaillant. I've no personal experience of Worcester Bosch.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382195

Postby Mike4 » January 30th, 2021, 12:01 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:It's a Baxi Combi 80Eco.

You have two independent faults IIRC. Your loss of system pressure and intermittent hot water failure.


Are they independent, or symptoms of common underlying troubles?

System pressure loss is water leaking from the system. Can be complex and difficult to trace and may well not be the boiler - i.e. the problem might persist after getting a new boiler and will quite possibly be nothing to do with any boiler guarantee you get.

Indeed. I don't *think* it's a leak (I've looked hard at the radiators, and for damp patches), but one advantage of the prospective heatpump is some more extensive re-plumbing that should further reduce that risk. I'd love to rid the downstairs of radiators and put it all under the floors!

Intermittent hot water (especially if it cycles on and off regularly is crud in the domestic hest exchanger. You need a new one and inspect the old to see why, then address the problem you see.

That chimes with something the plumber who serviced it said, but I didn't entirely follow. He turned the heating higher than I ever would, and noted that the burner went on and off several times as it warmed up - which is *probably* a facet of the same problem as my shower. He didn't suggest replacing it, but did say my boiler was running inefficiently - which I could live with if it's just for a few months before getting that heat pump!

I'm not surprised a service made no difference. You should have said to the firm "I have these two problems I want fixed...."


Probably yes. But the problem with cold showers only just became serious. Basically it was the post-christmas cold snap that caused me serious concern when I turned the heating on (as in, was it producing carbon monoxide? was it at risk of other major disaster? - better get this serviced), and it was when the cold snap ended and I turned the heating off that the problem with cold showers appeared.


SO MANY points in this to cover!

Yes they could be related, but not necessarily. More details about the exact nature of the intermittent HW will reveal. Is it random, i.e. does it work fine for some showers, but not others? Or does the water cycle up and down in temp? How long is the cycle?

Whether or not you can see/find the leak, we know every litre of water you add to get the pressure back up is coming back out of the system somewhere, or the pressure could not be dropping repeatedly. Unless you have a radiator acting like a tank and blowing up like a balloon!

Adding water repeatedly supports internal corrosion creating sludge so yes the two faults could be related. Your boiler has two heat exchangers. Sludge gets deposited in the domestic hot water heat exchanger, preventing transfer of heat into the domestic water leading to the gas HE overheating and the software turning the gas flames first down, then off. Then it all cools down and the software starts the cycle again.

The plumber's comment about the burner going ON and OFF when heating the rads is interesting, this should modulate down on the Combi 80 ECO rather than turn on and off. This is a third fault but could explain the HW fault, depending on the answer to my question about the HW behaviour above.

I don't know how he knows your boiler is "running inefficiently". Did his gas analyser tell him this? What did he mean by "inefficiently" anyway? Did he state the percentage efficiency perhaps? Or did he just mean "it doesn't seem to be working very well"?

Carbon monoxide should not be a problem you need to worry about as the Combi is 'room sealed", meaning it only communicates with outside air. So even if it was running like a dog and producing CO in spades it would not be escaping into your living environment. Did he measure the CO it produces? What was the value?

I thought your HW problem had been going on much longer than the recent cold snap....

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382217

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 30th, 2021, 1:04 pm

Mike4 wrote:SO MANY points in this to cover!


Thanks for taking them on!

Yes they could be related, but not necessarily. More details about the exact nature of the intermittent HW will reveal. Is it random, i.e. does it work fine for some showers, but not others? Or does the water cycle up and down in temp? How long is the cycle?


It cycles up and down.

In the past, it would go up, then down, then up again and stay up. That's something I've encountered in many places and can live with on the basis that getting it fixed is *somewhere* on the to-do list. And for a decent spell it stopped doing even that, or maybe I just didn't notice it over the summer when even shower-cold isn't uncomfortable.

The recent behaviour that's harder to live with is when it rises very, very slowly to tepid then falls back to freezing a couple of times, then stays on freezing longer than I can wait.

Whether or not you can see/find the leak, we know every litre of water you add to get the pressure back up is coming back out of the system somewhere, or the pressure could not be dropping repeatedly. Unless you have a radiator acting like a tank and blowing up like a balloon!

Adding water repeatedly supports internal corrosion creating sludge so yes the two faults could be related. Your boiler has two heat exchangers. Sludge gets deposited in the domestic hot water heat exchanger, preventing transfer of heat into the domestic water leading to the gas HE overheating and the software turning the gas flames first down, then off. Then it all cools down and the software starts the cycle again.


Indeed, my attempts to educate myself found a good youtube explanation of that from a plumber in (I think) the Portsmouth area. He spoke of several possible causes and showed many pics of cases he's dealt with.

I was trying to see how well the pressure holds when I keep the heating turned off. But that's thwarted by the hot water now depending on it! :evil:

The plumber's comment about the burner going ON and OFF when heating the rads is interesting, this should modulate down on the Combi 80 ECO rather than turn on and off. This is a third fault but could explain the HW fault, depending on the answer to my question about the HW behaviour above.

It's something we both observed, and consistent with the "old" hot/cold cycle. Some part of it (probably the heat exchanger as you say) being gunged up was his explanation. At the time my intention was to live with it until summer and (hopefully) the heat pump.
I don't know how he knows your boiler is "running inefficiently". Did his gas analyser tell him this? What did he mean by "inefficiently" anyway? Did he state the percentage efficiency perhaps? Or did he just mean "it doesn't seem to be working very well"?


I think it was more that a new boiler would run more efficiently. Being more modern, not cycling up and down, not having these infirmities of age.

Carbon monoxide should not be a problem you need to worry about as the Combi is 'room sealed", meaning it only communicates with outside air. So even if it was running like a dog and producing CO in spades it would not be escaping into your living environment. Did he measure the CO it produces? What was the value?

I thought your HW problem had been going on much longer than the recent cold snap....


He explained that about the CO too. My initial concern was when I fired up the heating and got some smells in there, which I thought were *probably* just general gunge getting disturbed by running it. Or even traffic fumes from something particularly noxious outside in the weather inversion conditions that also created the cold snap. He measured the CO both inside and outside the flue, and those at least were fine.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382219

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 30th, 2021, 1:12 pm

Mike4 wrote:One excellent reason to buy WB though is their after sales support. If/when you need to call on their long guarantee their service guys have a good reputation and will generally fix anything even if it is a fault arguably caused by poor installation. Other manus will blame the installer and walk away saying it isn't a boiler fault when called out under guarantee, or provide awful guarantee support in any number of other ways.


Now that's the most encouraging thing you could possibly have said in response to my concerns.

I daresay even the cheap-and-nastiest boiler will work fine for most users. The worry is finding oneself in the minority for whom it doesn't!

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382235

Postby beseeinyou » January 30th, 2021, 2:17 pm

I plumped for a Worcester Bosch combi when replacing my ageing boiler / water tank system, and had it installed by one of their recommended installers from about 5 or 6 who turned up to quote, it turned out to be one of the best things I've stumbled across as he has since renovated my en suite and bathroom, a rare find of an excellent and conscientious tradesman.

The boiler I picked was the Greenstar 8000 Life 40KW, the performance in particular to the showers is the proverbial night and day, I can't speak for longevity yet as it is only 16 months old, the same guy serviced it at 12 months for £50 and that keeps the warranty going, can't speak for their after sales either as haven't been required !

Beseeinyou

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382295

Postby sg31 » January 30th, 2021, 6:17 pm

beseeinyou wrote:I plumped for a Worcester Bosch combi when replacing my ageing boiler / water tank system, and had it installed by one of their recommended installers from about 5 or 6 who turned up to quote, it turned out to be one of the best things I've stumbled across as he has since renovated my en suite and bathroom, a rare find of an excellent and conscientious tradesman.

The boiler I picked was the Greenstar 8000 Life 40KW, the performance in particular to the showers is the proverbial night and day, I can't speak for longevity yet as it is only 16 months old, the same guy serviced it at 12 months for £50 and that keeps the warranty going, can't speak for their after sales either as haven't been required !

Beseeinyou


Excellent and conscientious tradesmen are the majority not the minority, there are a lot of them who do the job very well, not for the money they can make but because they take a pride in their work. That means they don't cut corners and using the right materials or spending that bit of extra time costs money so they will rarely be the cheapest quote you receive.

Because they aren't prepared to compete solely on price they get most of their work from recommendations from satisfied customers and from work passed on to them by other like minded tradesmen in different areas.

It sounds like you have come across a good tradesman so that should be you sorted for life. Don't bother looking around for good tradesmen in other spheres just ask the one person you know who is one of them. I can guarantee he will know a good electrician, a good general builder, a good plasterer and a good carpenter. If he doesn't he will have a friend who does.

Good tradesmen stick together, we can spot a bad one a mile away. We look after one another and develop close relationships because we often get offered work that includes other trades, if you take on the main contract you need to sub out to good people or it reflects badly on you.

You might have to pay a bit more but it works out cheaper in the end.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382315

Postby Mike4 » January 30th, 2021, 8:24 pm

sg31 wrote:You might have to pay a bit more but it works out cheaper in the end.


Great post! need to take issue with you on this bit.

I'd say a good job with no corners cut typically costs double what the cheapest tradesman is coming in at.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382335

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 30th, 2021, 10:25 pm

Mike4 wrote:
sg31 wrote:You might have to pay a bit more but it works out cheaper in the end.


Great post! need to take issue with you on this bit.

I'd say a good job with no corners cut typically costs double what the cheapest tradesman is coming in at.


I have a different problem. Finding any tradesmen at all willing to return my calls, let alone take on work.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382337

Postby sg31 » January 30th, 2021, 10:51 pm

Mike4 wrote:
sg31 wrote:You might have to pay a bit more but it works out cheaper in the end.


Great post! need to take issue with you on this bit.

I'd say a good job with no corners cut typically costs double what the cheapest tradesman is coming in at.


In fitting boilers I'm sure you are right but it isn't necessarily the same in other trades.

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382357

Postby Mike4 » January 31st, 2021, 8:04 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
sg31 wrote:You might have to pay a bit more but it works out cheaper in the end.


Great post! need to take issue with you on this bit.

I'd say a good job with no corners cut typically costs double what the cheapest tradesman is coming in at.


I have a different problem. Finding any tradesmen at all willing to return my calls, let alone take on work.


Trouble is, you've chosen a really dumb time to break your boiler. Silly UncleE!

Us gas bods' phones are ALIGHT with calls at the moment as so many people are WFH meaning their boilers are getting more use than before and packing up all over the place. And this is royally compounded by all the gas maintenance engineers at British Gas being out on strike in protest against their terms of employment being aggressively reduced.

So bottom line is that all you potential customers are, whether you realise it or not, engaged in a beauty contest for the attention of plumbers at the moment. I imagine you discussed replacing it with the bod who serviced it, or was he an employee of a bigger company therefore not in a position to strike a deal with you? In fact I'm surprised you were able to get anyone to service it this time of year, I'm declining all service/routine maintenance work and concentrating on the most needy cases i.e. breakdown calls from people old, ill and/or medically shielding.

(Edit to clarify last sentence.)

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Re: Getting a new boiler

#382364

Postby Mike4 » January 31st, 2021, 9:26 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:It's a Baxi Combi 80Eco.


Ok I've had a look in the manual, and this was Baxi's most basic "Ford Escort" of a boiler, and comes with a wide variety of different badges on it including Baxi, Potterton and Main. A massive seller and a non-condenser killed off by the regs in 2005 which made steamers mandatory. A cheap and cheerful boiler which generally works quite well but is subject to a number of faults that should have designed out 15 years earlier. It is generally easy to fix and all parts are freely available.

It has a hydraulic diverter valve that is particularly troublesome which needs to fully divert in order for the HW to work. If it is sticky or has a perished diaphragm it only partially diverts and the boiler fails to fire in HW mode. Turning the CH on disguises the problem by making the boiler fire anyway so I reckon this is your problem causing the cold showers. There is a possible alternative but related cause. There is a pin which extends from the diverter valve when it diverts into HW position and presses a microswitch to fire the burner. The water seal around the pin degrades with age and water gets in the microswitch stopping it working. You could have either problem, or both. I prescribe a new diverter valve and switch assembly. Parts are about £150 plus mebbe 90 mins on site to fit and test.

Regarding the pressure loss, this could be a failed or flat expansion vessel causing the pressure to rise excessively then discharge via the pressure relief valve to outside. This should have been checked in the service you had done though, particularly if you reported the pressure loss to the bod. He should really have been able to tell you about the diverter problem too as is is really common on this really common boiler. If this is the problem, a plastic bag tied over the end of the PRV discharge pipe will collect some tell-tale water after the next time you re-pressurise the system. I think though, you may have mentioned NOT getting wide pressure swings so this still points to a slow system leak.

At the same time I suggest demanding a new domestic water-to-water heat exchanger if you are feeling flush as it is hardly any more work to fit this at the same time, and yours may well be contaminated which causes the HW temperature to swing up and down over about a 45 to 60 second cycle, which I think you also mentioned happening.

Finally, these boilers have a single NTC thermistor to control all the temperature functions and this too is a common fail, so at only about £25 for the part I recommend getting this changed at the same time too.

Cost to do that lot will probably be £500-£600 by a local bod, unless you decide to cut your losses and get a new one.


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