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Coldest night of the year = no heating!

Does what it says on the tin
bionichamster
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Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385284

Postby bionichamster » February 9th, 2021, 11:59 pm

Boiler has been working fine today, then at 9pm I go to have bath and there's no hot water! I check the heating and it's out too. House is warm so it can't have packed up too long ago.

It's an Alpha CB28 in the attic, red and yellow lights flashing together in synchronised harmony, so not the normal low pressure (pressure is fine, I check). I look in the manual and it lseems it might mean a flue or fan fault. Then it clicks, is it the snow?

It's been snowing much of the day, could be eight to ten inches on the shallow sloped roof. The boiler flue exits the roof horizontally and only protrudes a short distance so it is potentially below the snow line but I go outside and at first glance from atop the ladders it appears to be fairly clear. The flue is about eight foot up the roof slope fro the gutter and it's too dangerous to try and climb up the slates to it in these conditions (although maybe the snow would soften the impact if I fell off the roof! :? ). I use a long section of 15mm plastic pipe to clear snow from around the flue and then ducttape a brush to it and clear the grill on the end. But all this is to no avail, the boiler still won't heat up and persists with its error flashy lights.

Any ideas? Is it possible that snow has gone inside the flue, or even been sucked deep inside and blocked it? (I'm assuming it's a balanced in/out pipe of course). The flue pipe was very cold inside the attic and I tried warming the end of it gently but that did nothing either. I've e-mailed my usual boiler servicing company and will call them first thing too, but interested to know if I'm barking up the wrong tree with possible cause.

Not the best day for this to happen, -7 predicted tonight and lots of compacted snow on the roads, so as well as being cold, if there is snow in the flue it likely won't thaw and I'm wondering if the gas engineer will even be able to get to us depending on road conditions....

BH

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385285

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » February 10th, 2021, 12:02 am

bionichamster wrote:Boiler has been working fine today, then at 9pm I go to have bath and there's no hot water! I check the heating and it's out too. House is warm so it can't have packed up too long ago.

It's an Alpha CB28 in the attic, red and yellow lights flashing together in synchronised harmony, so not the normal low pressure (pressure is fine, I check). I look in the manual and it lseems it might mean a flue or fan fault. Then it clicks, is it the snow?

It's been snowing much of the day, could be eight to ten inches on the shallow sloped roof. The boiler flue exits the roof horizontally and only protrudes a short distance so it is potentially below the snow line but I go outside and at first glance from atop the ladders it appears to be fairly clear. The flue is about eight foot up the roof slope fro the gutter and it's too dangerous to try and climb up the slates to it in these conditions (although maybe the snow would soften the impact if I fell off the roof! :? ). I use a long section of 15mm plastic pipe to clear snow from around the flue and then ducttape a brush to it and clear the grill on the end. But all this is to no avail, the boiler still won't heat up and persists with its error flashy lights.

Any ideas? Is it possible that snow has gone inside the flue, or even been sucked deep inside and blocked it? (I'm assuming it's a balanced in/out pipe of course). The flue pipe was very cold inside the attic and I tried warming the end of it gently but that did nothing either. I've e-mailed my usual boiler servicing company and will call them first thing too, but interested to know if I'm barking up the wrong tree with possible cause.

Not the best day for this to happen, -7 predicted tonight and lots of compacted snow on the roads, so as well as being cold, if there is snow in the flue it likely won't thaw and I'm wondering if the gas engineer will even be able to get to us depending on road conditions....

BH

Could it be the fan inside the boiler? May need a bit of WD40?

Or it's packed up?

AiY

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385288

Postby kempiejon » February 10th, 2021, 12:15 am

Have you tried turning it off and turning it on again?

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385294

Postby Mike4 » February 10th, 2021, 2:19 am

bionichamster wrote:Boiler has been working fine today, then at 9pm I go to have bath and there's no hot water! I check the heating and it's out too. House is warm so it can't have packed up too long ago.

It's an Alpha CB28 in the attic, red and yellow lights flashing together in synchronised harmony, so not the normal low pressure (pressure is fine, I check). I look in the manual and it lseems it might mean a flue or fan fault. Then it clicks, is it the snow?

It's been snowing much of the day, could be eight to ten inches on the shallow sloped roof. The boiler flue exits the roof horizontally and only protrudes a short distance so it is potentially below the snow line but I go outside and at first glance from atop the ladders it appears to be fairly clear. The flue is about eight foot up the roof slope fro the gutter and it's too dangerous to try and climb up the slates to it in these conditions (although maybe the snow would soften the impact if I fell off the roof! :? ). I use a long section of 15mm plastic pipe to clear snow from around the flue and then ducttape a brush to it and clear the grill on the end. But all this is to no avail, the boiler still won't heat up and persists with its error flashy lights.

Any ideas? Is it possible that snow has gone inside the flue, or even been sucked deep inside and blocked it? (I'm assuming it's a balanced in/out pipe of course). The flue pipe was very cold inside the attic and I tried warming the end of it gently but that did nothing either. I've e-mailed my usual boiler servicing company and will call them first thing too, but interested to know if I'm barking up the wrong tree with possible cause.

Not the best day for this to happen, -7 predicted tonight and lots of compacted snow on the roads, so as well as being cold, if there is snow in the flue it likely won't thaw and I'm wondering if the gas engineer will even be able to get to us depending on road conditions....

BH



Right, for what it's worth commenting at this time of night, it always surprises me how often people in the stress of a broken boiler, don't think of having a gander in the instruction book. Yours can be downloaded here if you don't have a paper copy. https://www.freeboilermanuals.com/asset ... b24-28.pdf

Turn to the fault-finding flow chart on Pages 29 and 31 and you'll see the fault code you describe of both lights flashing in unison, and AiY is bang on the money with his comment about checking the flue fan. The twin flashing lights is the PCB saying the safety device that checks the fan is running (the air pressure switch) before lighting the gas, is failing to detect the fan running, hence the fault code.

The APS looks (loosely speaking) for a difference in air pressure between the inlet and outlet of the fan, and on your boiler the control board believes it is not detecting any. This can have a variety of causes as follows:

1) The fan has actually packed up. Can you hear it running?
2) The fan is running and the APS is failing to detect it. This could be because the flue itself is blocked with something e.g. snow (as you already suspect). You might get lucky and find a fan heater or hair dryer aimed at the boiler for an hour or so will warm it up enough to melt the blockage and it all bursts into life, or you might be dead unlucky and the snow (if there is any) melts and the water wrecks the fan or the control board. Or both. Are you up for turning the electricity off, taking the front off the boiler and having a gander inside? You *might* find it is indeed full of snow. If it is, try to get it out without melting it.
3) The APS itself has failed. An amazing coincidence if this is the case, but not uncommon.
4) One or both of the little thin hoses connecting the APS to the fan are blocked with something, e.g. a snowflake.....
5) The fan is running, the flue is not blocked, the APS is operating, but the control board (PCB) has a fault and incorrectly thinks the APS has not operated, and is therefore refusing to light the gas. Again quite common but in this case would be quite a coincidence. One trick that surprisingly often brings a faulty PCB back to life is to warm it up with a hair dryer. If you are happy the fan is running and the boiler is not actually have any snow inside, try this. PCBs have a lot of capacitors on them which degrade with both age and heat and letting a PCB get cold and/or damp can stop it working. A blast with a hair dryer will sometimes raise the dead!

So apart from the above, I've no idea what might be wrong with your boiler.... 8-)

Hope that helps, if only a bit. Just knowing what is wrong sometimes helps too, even if you can't actually fix it.


P.S. To everyone reading this, don't have your next boiler fitted in the loft, it is usually such an utter ball-ache I wrote a long web page ranting about it!

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385508

Postby 88V8 » February 10th, 2021, 7:53 pm

Mike4 wrote:P.S. To everyone reading this, don't have your next boiler fitted in the loft, it is usually such an utter ball-ache ....!

And it wastes the not insignificant heat emitted from the casing.

I remember taking that into account when calculating the radiator requirement for the kitchen in our previous house.

V8

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385525

Postby Mike4 » February 10th, 2021, 10:36 pm

I'm wondering now if the OP has frozen to death, or just gone into hibernation....

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385531

Postby Dod101 » February 10th, 2021, 11:42 pm

Mike4 wrote:I'm wondering now if the OP has frozen to death, or just gone into hibernation....


I am following this saga. Maybe he has frozen to death. I am leaving my heating on tonight as we are promised -10C or so. I do not want a header tank to freeze so have opened the loft hatch below which is a nice hot water tank.

Dod

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385789

Postby 88V8 » February 11th, 2021, 5:36 pm

Dod101 wrote: I do not want a header tank to freeze so have opened the loft hatch below which is a nice hot water tank.

Good thought.
Our cold water tank is well lagged, and sited above the bathroom which is always heated to an extent by the storage heater, beneath the tank there is no loft insulation of course.

In our previous house we had a valley gutter which once overflowed into the house when snow froze in it, then thaw off the sunny side of the roof ran onto the ice and overflowed the leadwork.
After that I put trace heating in the valley.
You could do the same with your tank, on a frost stat, in case you are away from home when it freezes.

That said, if it is your central heating header, it should have inhibitor in it which also gives some freeze protection.
I see that Sentinel offer an inhibitor - X500 - which specifically acts as an antifreeze
https://www.sentinelprotects.com/uk/sup ... ezing-temp

V8

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385813

Postby doug2500 » February 11th, 2021, 7:34 pm

88V8 wrote:In our previous house we had a valley gutter which once overflowed into the house when snow froze in it, then thaw off the sunny side of the roof ran onto the ice and overflowed the leadwork.


Ha! This happened to my parents last night, only time in 40 years.

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385852

Postby Dod101 » February 11th, 2021, 10:03 pm

88V8 wrote:
Dod101 wrote: I do not want a header tank to freeze so have opened the loft hatch below which is a nice hot water tank.

Good thought.
Our cold water tank is well lagged, and sited above the bathroom which is always heated to an extent by the storage heater, beneath the tank there is no loft insulation of course.

In our previous house we had a valley gutter which once overflowed into the house when snow froze in it, then thaw off the sunny side of the roof ran onto the ice and overflowed the leadwork.
After that I put trace heating in the valley.
You could do the same with your tank, on a frost stat, in case you are away from home when it freezes.

That said, if it is your central heating header, it should have inhibitor in it which also gives some freeze protection.
I see that Sentinel offer an inhibitor - X500 - which specifically acts as an antifreeze
https://www.sentinelprotects.com/uk/sup ... ezing-temp

V8


I do not have a huge house but I have two separate hot water systems, one a sealed system (which of course has no header tank) and the other which does and is in the old bit of the house. I have a large modern extension which is more than twice the size of the old cottage and it has the sealed system so that normally I only need to heat one part of the hot water system. With temperature down to about -10 here last night I had both hot water systems on and the central heating until midnight. I think the header tank is the only vulnerable bit and it is lagged but how much good it would do I do not know.

I had a frost stat in my previous house but I found draining the system was the only sure way to ensure no problems. I was working abroad for some years.

Dod

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385862

Postby 88V8 » February 11th, 2021, 10:48 pm

Dod101 wrote:...it is lagged but how much good it would do I do not know.

Lagging delays freezing, but if it is cold enough for long enough, eventually it could freeze.
Unusual in the UK, albeit little consolation if it happens.

V8

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385865

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » February 11th, 2021, 11:15 pm

88V8 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:...it is lagged but how much good it would do I do not know.

Lagging delays freezing, but if it is cold enough for long enough, eventually it could freeze.
Unusual in the UK, albeit little consolation if it happens.

V8

Dod doesn't live in the UK, he lives near Iceland :lol: My bad :oops:

Frost stat?

AiY

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385933

Postby bungeejumper » February 12th, 2021, 10:19 am

For the last couple of nights we've been woken up by loud bangs which appeared to be coming from the wall of Bungee Towers, right in the corner of the bedroom. They were only happening in the early hours of the morning, and they sounded like (a) rifle shots or (b) some part of the masonry splitting away in the cold, or maybe (c) a stone mullion around the window "moving". :?

I found the cause this morning. Wedged in the waste paper basket were a couple of plastic water bottles on their way to the recycling bin. At night they would shrink (Boyle's law, I think?) until one of them imploded with a loud crack, but by the time the central heating had fired up in the morning they'd reinflated again so that there was absolutely no evidence to be found. I have awarded myself a Sherlock Holmes badge. :)

BJ

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385942

Postby tjh290633 » February 12th, 2021, 10:42 am

Dod101 wrote:I had a frost stat in my previous house but I found draining the system was the only sure way to ensure no problems. I was working abroad for some years.

Dod

We have a frost thermostat near our boiler, in the garage, and that has turned the heating and hot water on twice in recent nights, about 4am and 5am, give or take a few minutes. Very handy if you wish to start watching the cricket from bed, as the noise of the system usually wakes me up.

TJH

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385950

Postby Mike4 » February 12th, 2021, 10:56 am

bungeejumper wrote:For the last couple of nights we've been woken up by loud bangs which appeared to be coming from the wall of Bungee Towers, right in the corner of the bedroom. They were only happening in the early hours of the morning, and they sounded like (a) rifle shots or (b) some part of the masonry splitting away in the cold, or maybe (c) a stone mullion around the window "moving". :?

I found the cause this morning. Wedged in the waste paper basket were a couple of plastic water bottles on their way to the recycling bin. At night they would shrink (Boyle's law, I think?) until one of them imploded with a loud crack, but by the time the central heating had fired up in the morning they'd reinflated again so that there was absolutely no evidence to be found. I have awarded myself a Sherlock Holmes badge. :)

BJ


Well done for working that one out!

In this weather I am repeatedly astonished when I get into my freezing cold van and see how all the empty Coke bottles littering the interior are squashed almost flat for the same reason. But I think it is good ol' Charlies Law. "For a given mass of an ideal gas at constant pressure, the volume is directly proportional to its absolute temperature, assuming in a closed system."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_laws

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385954

Postby Dod101 » February 12th, 2021, 11:02 am

I suspect that could be a good idea. If it is freezing in your garage beside the boiler than maybe the heating ought to be on.

So far I have had no problems in my current house but in the aforesaid Victorian house I had a frost stat in a small room on the north side of the house, with the boiler very much in the centre, but even with that I had a burst pipe in or at least near to a first floor bathroom. So I then started simply draining the system. It was more or less unoccupied all winter so that made sense.

I see that a couple of nights ago, the weather station near me recorded -18C. That is seriously cold.

Dod

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385958

Postby bungeejumper » February 12th, 2021, 11:11 am

Mike4 wrote:In this weather I am repeatedly astonished when I get into my freezing cold van and see how all the empty Coke bottles littering the interior are squashed almost flat for the same reason. But I think it is good ol' Charlies Law. "For a given mass of an ideal gas at constant pressure, the volume is directly proportional to its absolute temperature, assuming in a closed system."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_laws

You're absolutely right, thanks. I'm always getting them mixed up. It doesn't exactly help that I have a friend called Charles Boyle. But it also doesn't help that I was banned from physics at school, after an unfortunate incident with a car battery and a lab that had to be rapidly evacuated. :D

BJ

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385961

Postby 6Tricia » February 12th, 2021, 11:21 am

Dod101 wrote:
I see that a couple of nights ago, the weather station near me recorded -18C. That is seriously cold.

Dod


I spoke to my sister two days ago complaining about the cold here (+1C at 3pm). She laughed as she told me that it was -28C at 8am with a high of -25C forecast! (Maybe I should mention that she lives in Calgary).

Tricia :)

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385969

Postby Mike4 » February 12th, 2021, 11:30 am

6Tricia wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
I see that a couple of nights ago, the weather station near me recorded -18C. That is seriously cold.

Dod


I spoke to my sister two days ago complaining about the cold here (+1C at 3pm). She laughed as she told me that it was -28C at 8am with a high of -25C forecast! (Maybe I should mention that she lives in Calgary).

Tricia :)


So swerving right off topic for a moment if I may, what sort of heating does your sister have in Calgary? Gas fired warm air would be my guess as radiators would be too prone to freezing in houses left unoccupied or if the boiler packs up.

Or is it still whale-oil lamps? ;)

Edit to add: This may seem an odd question as I assumed this was Canada where it gets seriously cold in some places, but now I think this is Calgary on the island of Mull!

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Re: Coldest night of the year = no heating!

#385978

Postby Dod101 » February 12th, 2021, 11:52 am

Just looked up the weather for Canada, and it seems that all State capitals are below freezing at the moment (Including Victoria BC), highly unusual apparently.

So we are not the only ones experiencing unusually cold weather. I have only been to Calgary Alberta once and that was in the height of summer so heating was not on my mind.

Dod


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