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Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

Does what it says on the tin
Clariman
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Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423095

Postby Clariman » June 28th, 2021, 11:22 am

Need to replace a poor Lamona inbuilt oven in a holiday let and cannot remember how it is wired in. Looking at similar Lamona models online they say they have a 13 amp power supply. Does that imply that it has an ordinary 3-pin plug or might it still need to be wired in by an electrician?

I've lost the detailed notes I had on it and cannot recall how it is installed.

Thanks
C

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423100

Postby Imbiber » June 28th, 2021, 11:36 am

I've had two built in electric ovens. Both came with a 13amp plug fitted. The hob required a separate supply. 30 amp ?

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423112

Postby Mike4 » June 28th, 2021, 12:03 pm

Imbiber wrote:I've had two built in electric ovens. Both came with a 13amp plug fitted. The hob required a separate supply. 30 amp ?


Seconded. Ovens are usually 1.5kW so even a double oven will be fine on a three pin plug.

It will also be fine hard-wired in though, so the OP can't rely on the existing oven actually being on a three pin plug, even though it could be.

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423119

Postby staffordian » June 28th, 2021, 12:11 pm

If you look on the AO.com website, you can filter built in ovens by whether they need hard wiring or will plug into a 13 amp socket. Our last house had a switched socket in the adjacent cupboard for the plugged in oven, whereas our current home has a more powerful and therefore hard wired oven.

If your existing one plugs in, then just look at those which come with a 13 amp plug.

Edit Meant to also say that if AO sell them, it might answer your question about how it's connected.

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423128

Postby jfgw » June 28th, 2021, 12:24 pm

Some single ovens come with plugs fitted, some come with a lead without a plug, and some come without a lead.

While some ovens are plugged in, in practice, more often than not, they are wired into an FCU with a 13A fuse or (incorrectly) directly into a 32A cooker supply.

All of the double ovens I have seen need more than 13A and need a 32A supply.


Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423129

Postby bungeejumper » June 28th, 2021, 12:25 pm

Imbiber wrote:I've had two built in electric ovens. Both came with a 13amp plug fitted. The hob required a separate supply. 30 amp ?

Moving slightly off topic here, but you can get hobs, including induction, that will plug into a 13 amp socket too. It's just that they won't perform well if you try to use all four rings at once. (Three kilowatts can only achieve so much, dammit. :) )

Best not to plug an oven into the same double socket that's also carrying the hob. Unless it's a beefed-up cooker socket, I suppose? Yeah, okay, I'll shut up now.

BJ

(PS: A run-through of the issues at https://chefspick.co.uk/cooker-13-amp-plug-socket/)

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423163

Postby Mike4 » June 28th, 2021, 3:00 pm

jfgw wrote:All of the double ovens I have seen need more than 13A and need a 32A supply.


Julian F. G. W.


I have a double oven in one of my boats that needs no electricity at all!

:lol:

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423204

Postby kiloran » June 28th, 2021, 5:41 pm

Mike4 wrote:I have a double oven in one of my boats that needs no electricity at all!
:lol:

Geothermal?

--kiloran

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423206

Postby csearle » June 28th, 2021, 5:48 pm

Clariman wrote:Need to replace a poor Lamona inbuilt oven in a holiday let and cannot remember how it is wired in. Looking at similar Lamona models online they say they have a 13 amp power supply. Does that imply that it has an ordinary 3-pin plug or might it still need to be wired in by an electrician?

I've lost the detailed notes I had on it and cannot recall how it is installed.

Thanks
C
My experience has been that ovens quoting 13A supplies usually have a 13A plug and lead attached. As has been said double ovens usually have loads higher than 13A and are typically wired straight into a 45A cooker outlet.

C.

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#423211

Postby Mike4 » June 28th, 2021, 6:19 pm

kiloran wrote:
Mike4 wrote:I have a double oven in one of my boats that needs no electricity at all!
:lol:

Geothermal?

--kiloran


No, gas!

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430304

Postby jaizan » July 25th, 2021, 5:05 pm

If it's a 13A oven, it will be OK with a 13A plug.

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430350

Postby csearle » July 25th, 2021, 10:17 pm

jaizan wrote:If it's a 13A oven, it will be OK with a 13A plug.
This is true. It is true especially because an oven, like a kettle is not drawing current for long periods of time. There are other 13A loads, like immersion heaters that really shouldn't be on 13A plugs because they can be drawing current for long periods of time. When that happens the 13A fuse (which is almost at the point of melting) generates an extreme amount of heat that conducts to the pin of the plug. This accelerates the chemical reaction of oxidization at the pin leading to poor contact and even more heat generation. The next thing that tends to happen is that this heat is conducted to the wires supplying the socket and the insulation goes black and often crumbles away. I'm told they can catch fire. Having seen quite a lot of this it seems plausible. It happens with fused connection-units too. C.

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430386

Postby jackdaww » July 26th, 2021, 7:24 am

csearle wrote:
jaizan wrote:If it's a 13A oven, it will be OK with a 13A plug.
This is true. It is true especially because an oven, like a kettle is not drawing current for long periods of time. There are other 13A loads, like immersion heaters that really shouldn't be on 13A plugs because they can be drawing current for long periods of time. When that happens the 13A fuse (which is almost at the point of melting) generates an extreme amount of heat that conducts to the pin of the plug. This accelerates the chemical reaction of oxidization at the pin leading to poor contact and even more heat generation. The next thing that tends to happen is that this heat is conducted to the wires supplying the socket and the insulation goes black and often crumbles away. I'm told they can catch fire. Having seen quite a lot of this it seems plausible. It happens with fused connection-units too. C.


=========================

immersion heaters are also inductive , meaning i think there can also be a power surge when they cut in and out on the thermostat .

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430401

Postby kiloran » July 26th, 2021, 9:00 am

jackdaww wrote:
csearle wrote:
jaizan wrote:If it's a 13A oven, it will be OK with a 13A plug.
This is true. It is true especially because an oven, like a kettle is not drawing current for long periods of time. There are other 13A loads, like immersion heaters that really shouldn't be on 13A plugs because they can be drawing current for long periods of time. When that happens the 13A fuse (which is almost at the point of melting) generates an extreme amount of heat that conducts to the pin of the plug. This accelerates the chemical reaction of oxidization at the pin leading to poor contact and even more heat generation. The next thing that tends to happen is that this heat is conducted to the wires supplying the socket and the insulation goes black and often crumbles away. I'm told they can catch fire. Having seen quite a lot of this it seems plausible. It happens with fused connection-units too. C.


=========================

immersion heaters are also inductive , meaning i think there can also be a power surge when they cut in and out on the thermostat .

I would have thought that the inductive component of the immersion heater impedance would be exceeding small, and has almost zero effect at 50Hz. I believe that induction heaters do exist, but the vast majority of immersion heaters have simple resistive elements

--kiloran

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430580

Postby quelquod » July 26th, 2021, 8:53 pm

csearle wrote:
jaizan wrote:If it's a 13A oven, it will be OK with a 13A plug.
This is true. It is true especially because an oven, like a kettle is not drawing current for long periods of time. There are other 13A loads, like immersion heaters that really shouldn't be on 13A plugs because they can be drawing current for long periods of time. When that happens the 13A fuse (which is almost at the point of melting) generates an extreme amount of heat that conducts to the pin of the plug. This accelerates the chemical reaction of oxidization at the pin leading to poor contact and even more heat generation. The next thing that tends to happen is that this heat is conducted to the wires supplying the socket and the insulation goes black and often crumbles away. I'm told they can catch fire. Having seen quite a lot of this it seems plausible. It happens with fused connection-units too. C.


It shouldn’t really be so catastrophic. According to BS a mains plug fuse should dissipate no more than 1 watt at it’s rated current and 1 watt is a relatively small amount to be removed by the associated metalwork and cabling in good condition. A 13 amp fuse should be a long way from melting at it’s rated load or it wouldn’t last long due to electromigration - it will probably take around 20 amps to melt it. However over time the spring fuse holder and the spring socket contacts weaken and in particular the copper wires creep and loosen with the effects you mention. I’ve smelt plenty of fishy tumble drier and washing machine plugs!

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430597

Postby Mike4 » July 26th, 2021, 10:33 pm

quelquod wrote:
csearle wrote:
jaizan wrote:If it's a 13A oven, it will be OK with a 13A plug.
This is true. It is true especially because an oven, like a kettle is not drawing current for long periods of time. There are other 13A loads, like immersion heaters that really shouldn't be on 13A plugs because they can be drawing current for long periods of time. When that happens the 13A fuse (which is almost at the point of melting) generates an extreme amount of heat that conducts to the pin of the plug. This accelerates the chemical reaction of oxidization at the pin leading to poor contact and even more heat generation. The next thing that tends to happen is that this heat is conducted to the wires supplying the socket and the insulation goes black and often crumbles away. I'm told they can catch fire. Having seen quite a lot of this it seems plausible. It happens with fused connection-units too. C.


It shouldn’t really be so catastrophic. According to BS a mains plug fuse should dissipate no more than 1 watt at it’s rated current and 1 watt is a relatively small amount to be removed by the associated metalwork and cabling in good condition. A 13 amp fuse should be a long way from melting at it’s rated load or it wouldn’t last long due to electromigration - it will probably take around 20 amps to melt it. However over time the spring fuse holder and the spring socket contacts weaken and in particular the copper wires creep and loosen with the effects you mention. I’ve smelt plenty of fishy tumble drier and washing machine plugs!



I agree with all of this.

In particular the 13A fuse will be nowhere near hot enough to melt when carrying 13 Amps. Fuse design is actually quite an interesting and complex subject. Fuses are very carefully designed to 'blow' after a certain period of time at a given overload, and when buying the little 20mm glass fuses there are about five (or perhaps more) different specifications to choose from for a given current rating, ranging from fast blow to very slow. More info on the variosu fuse markings here https://www.swe-check.com.au/pages/lear ... rkings.php

But to give a deeper flavour of complexity of fuse design have a scan through this: https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electr ... de.pdf.pdf

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430639

Postby DrFfybes » July 27th, 2021, 8:16 am

quelquod wrote:
It shouldn’t really be so catastrophic. According to BS a mains plug fuse should dissipate no more than 1 watt at it’s rated current and 1 watt is a relatively small amount to be removed by the associated metalwork and cabling in good condition. A 13 amp fuse should be a long way from melting at it’s rated load or it wouldn’t last long due to electromigration - it will probably take around 20 amps to melt it. However over time the spring fuse holder and the spring socket contacts weaken and in particular the copper wires creep and loosen with the effects you mention. I’ve smelt plenty of fishy tumble drier and washing machine plugs!


Aha - THAT'S what that smell was in MrsF's office over the winter.

I checked the fan heater plug, but given the wiring in the place should probably look at the sockets as well, I already found one in the garage where the neutral was loose when I removed the face plate because the 30mm screw (singular) holding it to the wall had loosened.

Paul

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430648

Postby Mike4 » July 27th, 2021, 8:59 am

DrFfybes wrote:
quelquod wrote:
It shouldn’t really be so catastrophic. According to BS a mains plug fuse should dissipate no more than 1 watt at it’s rated current and 1 watt is a relatively small amount to be removed by the associated metalwork and cabling in good condition. A 13 amp fuse should be a long way from melting at it’s rated load or it wouldn’t last long due to electromigration - it will probably take around 20 amps to melt it. However over time the spring fuse holder and the spring socket contacts weaken and in particular the copper wires creep and loosen with the effects you mention. I’ve smelt plenty of fishy tumble drier and washing machine plugs!


Aha - THAT'S what that smell was in MrsF's office over the winter.

I checked the fan heater plug, but given the wiring in the place should probably look at the sockets as well, I already found one in the garage where the neutral was loose when I removed the face plate because the 30mm screw (singular) holding it to the wall had loosened.

Paul


Yes, do check behind the sockets. This 'relaxing' of the fixing screws in electrical terminals is not limited to 13A plugs, it seems to occur in (almost) all types of copper cable poked into a hole and gripped with a brass screw. Once loosened, the connection resistance rises leading to power being dissipated across the joint and the temperature of the conductor rises. If it rises enough the insulation scorches or even smoulders, giving off the odd "fishy" smell reported by customers.

There seems to be no consensus as to why terminal screws loosen spontaneously over long periods, but it is a common problem. There is a thread on here a few months back where the various hypotheses are listed.

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430786

Postby csearle » July 27th, 2021, 7:23 pm

quelquod wrote:
csearle wrote:
jaizan wrote:If it's a 13A oven, it will be OK with a 13A plug.
This is true. It is true especially because an oven, like a kettle is not drawing current for long periods of time. There are other 13A loads, like immersion heaters that really shouldn't be on 13A plugs because they can be drawing current for long periods of time. When that happens the 13A fuse (which is almost at the point of melting) generates an extreme amount of heat that conducts to the pin of the plug. This accelerates the chemical reaction of oxidization at the pin leading to poor contact and even more heat generation. The next thing that tends to happen is that this heat is conducted to the wires supplying the socket and the insulation goes black and often crumbles away. I'm told they can catch fire. Having seen quite a lot of this it seems plausible. It happens with fused connection-units too. C.


It shouldn’t really be so catastrophic. According to BS a mains plug fuse should dissipate no more than 1 watt at it’s rated current and 1 watt is a relatively small amount to be removed by the associated metalwork and cabling in good condition. A 13 amp fuse should be a long way from melting at it’s rated load or it wouldn’t last long due to electromigration - it will probably take around 20 amps to melt it. However over time the spring fuse holder and the spring socket contacts weaken and in particular the copper wires creep and loosen with the effects you mention. I’ve smelt plenty of fishy tumble drier and washing machine plugs!
I'm going to have to, reluctantly, concede this one. ;)

There is a "corner" shop in Hartfield, with a 100A BS88 intake fuse that passes between 55A and 98A (measured) 24/7. The fuse carrier is so hot you can't hold your hand on it at all. This isn't a BS1362 fuse but has a similar-ish looking melting-time/current graph. I see though that at these currents a magnitude greater the heat generated will be higher.

Chris
PS I rather regret. for more than one reason, distracting the thread from the OP's question.

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Re: Does Oven 13amp supply imply it has an ordinary 3 pin plug?

#430836

Postby 9873210 » July 28th, 2021, 3:30 am

jackdaww wrote:
immersion heaters are also inductive , meaning i think there can also be a power surge when they cut in and out on the thermostat .


I would imagine most of the inrush current is due to the positive temperature coefficient of resistance. I.e. a cold heating element has a lower resistance, hence a higher current and higher power, than one at operating temperature.


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