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Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

Does what it says on the tin
Clariman
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Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427505

Postby Clariman » July 13th, 2021, 9:35 pm

I'm looking for some advice on Howdens modus operandi and what room for negotiation there is.

We asked a local, highly recommended joiner to quote for a a new kitchen. He said that he used Howdens to do the design and to buy the kit from. So we had the Howdens designer out and now have a quote for the kitchen itself, while we await the installation cost from the joiner.

The Howdens quotation just shows a total price and we have a second quotation from them which assumes we buy at sale time, but the cost is barely 10% less which isn't exactly an exciting sales discount. So I get the impression that the prices may not be TRUE sale prices but just some margin that the Howden's designer has to play with. And the fact that the pricing isn't itemised rings some alarm bells with me.

So how do Howdens tend to operate and how much leeway on price do they have? What sort of discounts would they offer at Sale time?

Final question. The joiner says that he can create his own cabinets which he can spray in any colour. Is that likely to be better or poorer quality than Howdens?

Any other relevant advice appreciated too.

Clariman

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427506

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 13th, 2021, 9:59 pm

Clariman wrote:I'm looking for some advice on Howdens modus operandi and what room for negotiation there is.

We asked a local, highly recommended joiner to quote for a a new kitchen. He said that he used Howdens to do the design and to buy the kit from. So we had the Howdens designer out and now have a quote for the kitchen itself, while we await the installation cost from the joiner.

The Howdens quotation just shows a total price and we have a second quotation from them which assumes we buy at sale time, but the cost is barely 10% less which isn't exactly an exciting sales discount. So I get the impression that the prices may not be TRUE sale prices but just some margin that the Howden's designer has to play with. And the fact that the pricing isn't itemised rings some alarm bells with me.

So how do Howdens tend to operate and how much leeway on price do they have? What sort of discounts would they offer at Sale time?

Final question. The joiner says that he can create his own cabinets which he can spray in any colour. Is that likely to be better or poorer quality than Howdens?

Any other relevant advice appreciated too.

Clariman

Howdens started life as part of MFI. It's business model is aimed at small builders. If you have a local MKM builders merchant you could try them for a design and price. I think they have a deal with Symphony Kitchens. Symphony are a decent product. Factory made carcass' are better than hand made. Unless you are having a bespoke hand made kitchen. But then you're into serious money.

You need an 18mm carcass throughout, including the backboard. And the shelves should have ABS edgings. Don't get flat pack. It's usually the doors and their finish that is the main cost of a kitchen.

AiY

PhaseThree

Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427510

Postby PhaseThree » July 13th, 2021, 10:27 pm

Howdens work only with trade customers (who reportedly get a good kick-back on the quoted prices) as a private individual you are at a disadvantage from the start. If you are dead set on a Howdens kitchen you need to be negotiating with your joiner - not Howdens.

I tried to get a sensible quote from Howdens for a kitchen from my new build without success, personally I would avoid them as a result.

There is nothing special about Howdens. Get a good idea as to what you want - the plan, the quality (15mm,18mm,22mm) and the added extras, then go find a quality local kitchen fitter and negotiate from a position of knowledge. Ideally look for one without a posh shop front,

What you will find if you dig further is that the cabinets sold by the high kitchen shops are made by a few trade suppliers, with the differentiation being supplied by the doors and fittings.

My local fitter provided a great service, quality product and undercut all the competition. Unfortunately for you they are based in Banbridge Northern Ireland.

As an off-the-wall thought try the Used Kitchen Company (https://www.theusedkitchencompany.com/). People with more money than sense upgrading their near perfect kitchens and selling them for peanuts - Some Howdens available !!

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427514

Postby fisher » July 13th, 2021, 10:44 pm

I don't like Howdens secretive approach to pricing. Here is a link to their pricing page: https://www.howdens.com/help-and-advice ... ur-pricing

A couple of quotes from that link:

Trade-only approach
All our products require professional installation and that is why we only sell to trade professionals. We are also a local business. Our depot managers hire their own staff, refine their own stock to suit local needs, and adjust their price list to suit local conditions and market demand.

Confidential trade terms
Our depots offer confidential trade terms to ensure our products are affordable and competitive in the local area. When preparing an estimate for the benefit of our trade customers, this may include costs that they have set and expect to receive from you, which may include sourcing, consumable items, transporting and installing our products, and a commission.

PhaseThree

Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427516

Postby PhaseThree » July 13th, 2021, 10:57 pm

Check this thread for further info as to their trade practices:-
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/ho ... es.130119/

Dod101
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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427518

Postby Dod101 » July 13th, 2021, 11:03 pm

Howdens sound like a decent investment proposition to me.

Dod

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427526

Postby Mike4 » July 14th, 2021, 12:03 am

fisher wrote:Trade-only approach
All our products require professional installation and that is why we only sell to trade professionals.


This is code for:

Retail customers ask reams of endless stupid questions and waste hours on end of our staff time getting themselves an education in how to design and specify a kitchen, so we leave the installer to field all that shyte and come to us with a finished specification, for which we will give them a keen price.

The installer then adds his own margin to cover all his time spent educating his customer and drawing up the spec.

PhaseThree

Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427536

Postby PhaseThree » July 14th, 2021, 12:39 am

Mike4 wrote:
fisher wrote:Trade-only approach
All our products require professional installation and that is why we only sell to trade professionals.


This is code for:

Retail customers ask reams of endless stupid questions and waste hours on end of our staff time getting themselves an education in how to design and specify a kitchen, so we leave the installer to field all that shyte and come to us with a finished specification, for which we will give them a keen price.

The installer then adds his own margin to cover all his time spent educating his customer and drawing up the spec.


If that was even vaguely true then the end price should be competitive with other supplier of similar quality products, in my experience this is not the case.

The reality is more along the lines of "we won't quote a definitive supply price under any circumstances, this lets you (the fitter) claim to have gained a huge 10% discount while pocketing the 50% difference.)"

It is all smoke and mirrors to the detriment of the end consumer. Why not just quote a supply price and let the fitter quote for fitting ?? That's pretty much what happened with the rest of my house build. Imagine going through this crap when buying roof tiles or plasterboard ? You would be out of business in days.

As another example - I bought 20 internal doors, I asked 3 companies for quotes for similar styles/quality and took the best. As expected Howdens (a door and kitchen emporium according to their website) refused to quote and told me to go through a third party supplier. Their ballpark figure was so far out we didn't proceed for a formal quote. There is no "eduction in design" required or difficult questions to field in buying a door yet they still insist on using the same aggressive and opaque pricing model.

IMHO Their business model relies on screwing people who haven't checked the big picture.

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427550

Postby richlist » July 14th, 2021, 7:52 am

I've had 4 kitchens refitted with Howden products in property I've refurbished. Howden did the design, supplied the product to me, I then arranged for a kitchen fitter to install. No problems, no hassle, no hesitation in recommending them.

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427555

Postby CliffEdge » July 14th, 2021, 8:18 am

We got a quote from Howdens and a quote from a local supplier, both including fitting. The Howdens quote was 50% more, for basically the same design and quality. We did not choose Howdens. Afterwards we were told that we should have gone back to Howdens and they would have matched the lower quote! We were not impressed by their dishonesty.

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427557

Postby Mike4 » July 14th, 2021, 8:23 am

PhaseThree wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
fisher wrote:Trade-only approach
All our products require professional installation and that is why we only sell to trade professionals.


This is code for:

Retail customers ask reams of endless stupid questions and waste hours on end of our staff time getting themselves an education in how to design and specify a kitchen, so we leave the installer to field all that shyte and come to us with a finished specification, for which we will give them a keen price.

The installer then adds his own margin to cover all his time spent educating his customer and drawing up the spec.


If that was even vaguely true then the end price should be competitive with other supplier of similar quality products, in my experience this is not the case.

The reality is more along the lines of "we won't quote a definitive supply price under any circumstances, this lets you (the fitter) claim to have gained a huge 10% discount while pocketing the 50% difference.)"

It is all smoke and mirrors to the detriment of the end consumer. Why not just quote a supply price and let the fitter quote for fitting ?? That's pretty much what happened with the rest of my house build. Imagine going through this crap when buying roof tiles or plasterboard ? You would be out of business in days.

As another example - I bought 20 internal doors, I asked 3 companies for quotes for similar styles/quality and took the best. As expected Howdens (a door and kitchen emporium according to their website) refused to quote and told me to go through a third party supplier. Their ballpark figure was so far out we didn't proceed for a formal quote. There is no "eduction in design" required or difficult questions to field in buying a door yet they still insist on using the same aggressive and opaque pricing model.

IMHO Their business model relies on screwing people who haven't checked the big picture.
]



I was just giving my experience as a regular trade customer of Howdens since they first appeared on the scene about 30 years ago. To compare designing and supplying a fitted kitchen to selling tiles and plasterboard is laughable in my personal opinion.

You of course know far more about how to run a successful kitchen business than Howdens, obviously.

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427559

Postby Itsallaguess » July 14th, 2021, 8:34 am

CliffEdge wrote:
We got a quote from Howdens and a quote from a local supplier, both including fitting.

The Howdens quote was 50% more, for basically the same design and quality. We did not choose Howdens.

Afterwards we were told that we should have gone back to Howdens and they would have matched the lower quote! We were not impressed by their dishonesty.


As a point of principle, I refuse to deal with any company that offers me their best price in those circumstances, on a 'we can match that' basis.

At that point, they've exposed themselves as a bad company acting like a good one, but I want to give my custom to businesses who show me their nice face first, not last once they've been caught out...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427565

Postby richlist » July 14th, 2021, 8:52 am

When I need to have a new kitchen fitted I usually sketch out a rough idea of what I'd like and I always set myself a budget before I approach a professional designer. If their design fits my plans and is on or below my preset budget I just go ahead. If it's slightly above my budget, I tell the designer to have another look because I have an upper price which I won't exceed......it usually works.

Some people are prepared to spend an inordinate amount of time & effort trying to save a few £hundred by shopping around, buying bits from different suppliers......I'm not. I find Howdens is a one stop shop for fitted kitchens, everything available under one roof. My fitter knows Howden products and what to expect. Quality & pricing is generally good and saves a lot of hassle. The overall cost for me is tax deductible which I know is not available for an owner/ occupier.

ReformedCharacter
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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427574

Postby ReformedCharacter » July 14th, 2021, 9:36 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
As a point of principle, I refuse to deal with any company that offers me their best price in those circumstances, on a 'we can match that' basis.

At that point, they've exposed themselves as a bad company acting like a good one, but I want to give my custom to businesses who show me their nice face first, not last once they've been caught out...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Having just gone through the process of negotiating the cost of replacement doors and windows I have to agree.

RC

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427575

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 14th, 2021, 9:37 am

Can I add a note for Clariman's sake please.

I'd suggest you put your ever loving [business] arms around the joiner and agree his margin upfront. It's a form of negotiation I use very often. You would ask for a copy of the invoice (not quotation) and pay for the goods on delivery. You can use all this to your advantage. Prompt payment is worth a lot in construction, use it sir. You could agree a percentage or you could agree a lump sum addition to the invoice value. You also need to ensure the joiner doesn't increase his/her cost for fitting so again make sure you get the fitting costs agreed as part of the wider package. And don't be afraid to play hard ball (I know you Scot's can be a little to easy with the pennies at times :lol: Sorry my sense of humour's getting worse.)

Howdens kitchens are OK. There's better out there. If you know what to order you may be able to get better quality for less from directly made "internet" sites. But I don't think you should go near it if you don't. Stick with what's best.

If you have any specific questions please PM me.

AiY

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427580

Postby UncleEbenezer » July 14th, 2021, 10:09 am

Mike4 wrote:
fisher wrote:Trade-only approach
All our products require professional installation and that is why we only sell to trade professionals.


This is code for:

Retail customers ask reams of endless stupid questions and waste hours on end of our staff time getting themselves an education in how to design and specify a kitchen, so we leave the installer to field all that shyte and come to us with a finished specification, for which we will give them a keen price.

The installer then adds his own margin to cover all his time spent educating his customer and drawing up the spec.

Interesting comment.

I asked in Howdens, as a retail customer. I already had my own detailed design for the layout I want and needed to deal with the secondary task of selecting units, etc. But mostly I was in need of someone to do the installation, including new floor and replacing the plasterboard on one wall, and fairly extensive re-plumbing.

The man from Howdens was more than keen to come and flesh out my design into nice pics - dealing with the retail customer. He also gave me a catalogue, but there I was frustrated by the lack of pricing information: it could certainly inform my choice between multiple similar options I'd be happy with!

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427584

Postby sg31 » July 14th, 2021, 10:40 am

Howdens kitchens are decent quality, not the best but if you are a tradesman they are competetive. I've used them for years although I closed my account a couple of years ago now I'm retired.

The catalogue price is nothing more than an inflated starting price. The last kitchen I bought was discounted by 65% or thereabouts straight away. The starting discount does vary quite a bit depending on sales targets and maybe how much business you do with them. That discount is where you start negotiating. Usual practice is to get a quote from elsewhere which undercuts Howdens then go to Howdens and they will usually agree to reduce their price further. Depending on how often you want to repeat the process you can continue to get the price reduced.

Sometimes they aren't under pressure to meet targets as it's early in the period or they may already have met their quota. Sometimes they are close enough that your kitchen is what will get them there and they will cut to the bone.

As a retail customer you are in the hands of the fitter. Some will do a free fitting service and you just pay the inflated Howdens price, others pass on some/most of the discount and charge properly for their fitting service. All the customer should be interested in is the final price and the quality of the end product but people are strange, some jump at the free fitting and think they have got a great deal, others want a big discount on the units.

Howdens are quite prepared to give the builder a 'quote' which shows anything from the full list price to any discount the builder/fitter desires.

The above is how it operated up to 2 years ago. It might have changed since then.

Kitchen cabinets these days are a commodity item freely available on the internet. A quick Google search will provide loads of suppliers. If you know what you want you can save a lot of money, the same goes for doors. Buy direct and save a packet, if you have a plan it's easy. Any competent DIY'er can fit a kitchen, it's not complicated.

Using a builder/ fitter cut's down the disruption to the household and some people are happy to pay for that.

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427598

Postby UncleEbenezer » July 14th, 2021, 11:58 am

sg31 wrote:Kitchen cabinets these days are a commodity item freely available on the internet. A quick Google search will provide loads of suppliers. If you know what you want you can save a lot of money, the same goes for doors. Buy direct and save a packet, if you have a plan it's easy. Any competent DIY'er can fit a kitchen, it's not complicated.

Using a builder/ fitter cut's down the disruption to the household and some people are happy to pay for that.


I've done that before. Units, worktops, and new taps and sink from MFI. Nice, and excellent value. Can't remember where the floor tiles were from: may have been MFI too.

That was an easy job. No major changes to existing layout. No structural work. No electrics, no plumbing beyond fitting new sink and tap. Laminate worktop easy to work with. Floor was a standalone job, and the units/worktop/sink were all done as a two-person job over a weekend (probably a 3-day one).

It's a different story when the floor may want structural work, when the plumbing (which is dodgy) wants complete rearranging including removing existing radiator and new sites for the sink and appliances (where they currently are - at the window end of the room - is to become the dining area). And when the new worktops are to be quartz, I I understand DIY isn't even an option! If I try and do it myself, at best I'll be months without a kitchen, more likely I'll fail completely. That's what professionals are for!

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427638

Postby AF62 » July 14th, 2021, 2:06 pm

sg31 wrote:Howdens are quite prepared to give the builder a 'quote' which shows anything from the full list price to any discount the builder/fitter desires.


And that is the key point. There is no actual price list for retail customers, only a negotiated price available only to the trade.

And so as the end consumer whatever Howdens provide you with, either directly or indirectly via the fitter* you have employed, the numbers on it are false.

So if you are not able to separate the cost of materials from the cost of fitting because the first is untrustworthy, then all you can do is consider whether the total is acceptable.

*You could ask to see Howdens VAT invoice to the fitter for supplying the units rather than the quote, as that should be truthful as HMRC get a bit cross otherwise. However even then that could be manipulated by a discount credit to the fitter paid afterwards and not revealed on the invoice or even the first invoice (which you see) then being cancelled and a lower value invoice then generated - Although I have never had any dealings with Howdens I have seen both these tricks done by other businesses where the end customer wanted to see the invoice to confirm they were paying the actual supply price.

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Re: Howdens pricing, sale and negotiation

#427657

Postby richlist » July 14th, 2021, 2:53 pm

Why not register as a trader with Howdens. You don't need to be Limited liability. Then you can try to negotiate your own discount.


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