Light Switches not Earthed

[Rover110]

I rent out a bungalow that was built (in the 1960s?) before it was necessary to have earth wires to the light switches.
The lack of earth wires to the light switches was raised as a "C2" in the recent electrical safety inspection (not immediately dangerous but needs to be addressed). As I understand it, if a "hot" wire were to come adrift, there is the possibility it will touch one of the screws that holds the switch onto the back-box, thereby allowing an electric shock.

The electrician who did the inspection said that the way to fix that was to rewire all the light switches - cutting slots down the walls to insert the fresh wires then have a decorator re-plaster the walls as the electrician went around the house. I booked him in but he has since stopped responding to communication so I suspect he no longer wants the job.

Naturally this work would be extremely disruptive to the tenant, who would probably have to move out for the duration of the work.

So the question:
Are there any other possible fixes to the lack of earth wires to the light switches that would be less disruptive but still make things safe (and pass a safety inspection)?
(Adding earth wires to the light fittings is, I assume, less disruptive as all the wiring can be done in the loft).

I have seen mention of using "class 2" double-insulated light switches, and see such things advertised e.g. https://www.castlegatelights.co.uk/tren ... ite-p46670
Could they comply?

Thanks in advance,
Rover

[mc2fool]

I rent out a bungalow that was built (in the 1960s?) before it was necessary to have earth wires to the light switches.
The lack of earth wires to the light switches was raised as a "C2" in the recent electrical safety inspection (not immediately dangerous but needs to be addressed). As I understand it, if a "hot" wire were to come adrift, there is the possibility it will touch one of the screws that holds the switch onto the back-box, thereby allowing an electric shock.

The electrician who did the inspection said that the way to fix that was to rewire all the light switches - cutting slots down the walls to insert the fresh wires then have a decorator re-plaster the walls as the electrician went around the house. I booked him in but he has since stopped responding to communication so I suspect he no longer wants the job.

Naturally this work would be extremely disruptive to the tenant, who would probably have to move out for the duration of the work.

So the question:
Are there any other possible fixes to the lack of earth wires to the light switches that would be less disruptive but still make things safe (and pass a safety inspection)?

Replace the screws with nylon ones?

Or replace the light switches with modern ones that have little plastic caps over the screws?

[Gerry557]

Im not current on the latest regs but I would consult a couple of leckys for advice. I think this is new legislation so thee will be a catch up. The cynic in my also thinks they are trying to make it harder and harder to be a private landlord as they keep changing the rules. Smoke alarms etc!

Whilst adding an earth would be a good idea you could arrange it when the tenant has given notice and arrange in the void as its not immediately required. Then you can decorate for the new tenant.

Can you get double insulated switches?

[PhaseThree]

Take a look at the Quinetic wiresless switch system. I use a couple of them around the house where feeding new switch wires wasn't feasible.
https://www.quinetic.co.uk/

They can be bought from here
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index ... index.html

In my experience they work well and are reliable - and a lot cheaper than rewiring.

[pochisoldi]

I rent out a bungalow that was built (in the 1960s?) before it was necessary to have earth wires to the light switches.
The lack of earth wires to the light switches was raised as a "C2" in the recent electrical safety inspection (not immediately dangerous but needs to be addressed). As I understand it, if a "hot" wire were to come adrift, there is the possibility it will touch one of the screws that holds the switch onto the back-box, thereby allowing an electric shock.

The electrician who did the inspection said that the way to fix that was to rewire all the light switches - cutting slots down the walls to insert the fresh wires then have a decorator re-plaster the walls as the electrician went around the house. I booked him in but he has since stopped responding to communication so I suspect he no longer wants the job.

Naturally this work would be extremely disruptive to the tenant, who would probably have to move out for the duration of the work.

So the question:
Are there any other possible fixes to the lack of earth wires to the light switches that would be less disruptive but still make things safe (and pass a safety inspection)?
(Adding earth wires to the light fittings is, I assume, less disruptive as all the wiring can be done in the loft).

I have seen mention of using "class 2" double-insulated light switches, and see such things advertised e.g. https://www.castlegatelights.co.uk/tren ... ite-p46670
Could they comply?

Thanks in advance,
Rover

Did the electrician actually inspect the ceiling roses? - a lack of earthing on ceiling roses in a bungalow is much easier to fix and may already have been done. Lack of earth on a light fitting carries more risk than an unearthed backbox.

If the ceiling roses don't have an earth, I would either fully replace the "loop"/above ceiling wiring with twin and earth, or throw in an earth wire. That makes that problem go away.

In any case, I would remove any metallic switches and replace with plastic ones which have screw caps (for example: https://www.merkkoledlighting.co.uk/pro ... -switch-w/). This should get you from C2 (fail/potentially dangerous) to C3 (Improvement recommended).

Then check each switch individually:
If the existing wiring is run in a conduit sneak an insulated single down it.
If the wiring is in a stud partition wall, ditto.
If the cabling is otherwise "loose" in the wall, use the old cable to pull the new one through (ask your sparky about using 1mm T+E cable to replace 1.5mm twin cable if its tight)
If any light switches are mounted back to back, pick one for the full chase out job, then go through the wall to add an earth connection. (e.g. hallway light located on the other side of the wall from the lounge light - chase down the hallway plaster for the new twin and earth to replace the drop for the hallway, then drill through the wall to install an insulated single to earth the lounge switch with its retained twin cable.

If you do end up having to chisel the walls, make sure you address any other stuff in that room, (e.g. additional sockets) so the wall gets wrecked+made good just the one time.

As far as having the tenants move out, I've seen a bungalow fully rewired with a bedbound person in situ before now. (and I mean fully - loadsa new sockets installed to Part M compliant locations to replace the two singles per room installed on the skirting boards).

[pochisoldi]

As a follow up (following a bit of googling):

Have a look at https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.u ... bpg4-1.pdf ("Best Practice Guide No. 4 Electrical installation condition reporting: Classification Codes for domestic and similar electrical installations")

The only references relating to lighting earth are:

"Code C2 - Potentially dangerous" ...

"Absence of a circuit protective conductor for a lighting circuit supplying items of Class I equipment, or connected to switches having metallic face plates"

"Non-compliances with the current edition of BS 7671 that do not give rise to danger and do not require reporting"

"Protective conductor of a lighting circuit not (or incorrectly) terminated at the final circuit connection point to a Class II (or insulated) item of equipment, such as at a switch mounting box or luminaire"

Also https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.u ... 6/bpg1.pdf ("Best Practice Guide No. 1 Replacing a consumer unit in domestic premises") says:

"8.3. If there are any lighting circuits that do not have a protective conductor, the recommendations of Section 10 of this Guide should be followed."

"It is strongly recommended that a lighting circuit having no protective conductor should not be reconnected unless:
• it is rewired with cables having a protective conductor, or
• a circuit protective conductor is provided with a means of connection available at all accessible points of that circuit.
10.4. Where the customer will not agree to one of the remedial measures described in Section 10.3. of this Guide the customer should be advised that the circuit cannot be reconnected unless they agree to have all associated metallic or Class I fittings or accessories present replaced by all-insulated or Class II alternatives."

The other best practice guides can be found at https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.u ... ce-guides/

The CU guide gives a last resort option which involves testing any class 1 fittings, but TBH for a bungalow assuming easy loft access, I would get rid of any metallic switches, and run an earth around the ceiling roses in the loft.

PochiSoldi

[9873210]

I rent out a bungalow that was built (in the 1960s?) before it was necessary to have earth wires to the light switches.
The lack of earth wires to the light switches was raised as a "C2" in the recent electrical safety inspection (not immediately dangerous but needs to be addressed). As I understand it, if a "hot" wire were to come adrift, there is the possibility it will touch one of the screws that holds the switch onto the back-box, thereby allowing an electric shock.

I would check if a ground fault interrupter* could be installed on the light circuit. They are intended to prevent exactly this type of hazard.

*or whatever alphabet soup they are being called this year.

[csearle]

So the question:
Are there any other possible fixes to the lack of earth wires to the light switches that would be less disruptive but still make things safe (and pass a safety inspection)?

This is a bloody good question.

I agree entirely with pochisoldi's assessments.

I would personally consider all metal switches or class 1 light fittings that were not Earthed as C2 observations.

Any plastic switches having plate screws able to be sustainably energised following a fault to Earth would IMO be C2 observations too.

As to what to do by way of remedial action: if the client was not willing to rewire the lighting circuit(s) to introduce a CPC(Earth) I would suggest (and pretty much insist that all class 1 fittings be replaced with class 2 ones and that all metal switches be replaced with plastic ones with screw covers and that a label be placed at the consumer unit warning of the state of affairs. Oh and I would insist upon 30mA RCD protection too of course.

Chris

[Mike4]

My preferred solution would be to install gas lamps

(Nice cider, this!)

[Bminusrob]

I agree with PhaseThree. Quinetic switches are a great solution to issues like this, because the switches are not wired at all. I used loads of them in my old house; single switches, double or triple switches and dimmers. Never had a problem, and it does save hacking out a lot of plaster, fitting new wires and making good. They are expensive compared with standard fittings, but the total cost of installation is a fraction of a conventional system.

[Rover110]

Thanks for all your comments.

I think pochisoldi's suggestion to use covers to conceal the fixing screws looks like the easiest fix - assuming that's sufficient to reduce them from C2 to C3. I'll consult an electrician.
And run earths to any ceiling roses that don't have them.

Gas lighting? Won't that be pretty useless if/when we go to hydrogen (unless I upgrade them to limelight)?
Remember that most gas mantles are radioactive!

- Rover

[csearle]

I think pochisoldi's suggestion to use covers to conceal the fixing screws looks like the easiest fix - assuming that's sufficient to reduce them from C2 to C3. I'll consult an electrician.

I tested a residence in Bromley today and it had the same issues. Class 1 light fittings with no Earth conductors in the lighting wires and plate screws that could become live in the event of a fault to Earth. All C2s. If I end up doing the remedial work then will be doing exactly the same.

Chris

[UncleEbenezer]

I think pochisoldi's suggestion to use covers to conceal the fixing screws looks like the easiest fix - assuming that's sufficient to reduce them from C2 to C3. I'll consult an electrician.

I tested a residence in Bromley today and it had the same issues. Class 1 light fittings with no Earth conductors in the lighting wires and plate screws that could become live in the event of a fault to Earth. All C2s. If I end up doing the remedial work then will be doing exactly the same.

Chris

What happens when a cover comes off? Isn't that back to square one?

[csearle]

What happens when a cover comes off? Isn't that back to square one?

Yes. It isn't a great option. At least also have a label on the fuseboard explaining the shortcoming, keep the issue as a C3 (improvement recommended), and to ensure RCD protection is present. Far better to introduce an Earth somehow if possible. C.

[pochisoldi]

I think pochisoldi's suggestion to use covers to conceal the fixing screws looks like the easiest fix - assuming that's sufficient to reduce them from C2 to C3. I'll consult an electrician.

I tested a residence in Bromley today and it had the same issues. Class 1 light fittings with no Earth conductors in the lighting wires and plate screws that could become live in the event of a fault to Earth. All C2s. If I end up doing the remedial work then will be doing exactly the same.

Chris

What happens when a cover comes off? Isn't that back to square one?

We're talking about 7mm-ish plugs that cover the two screws. If the covers are loose at install time then the job hasn't been done properly (hint: small blob of blu-tac if the covers don't stay in place. Other wise the covers will only come off if someone tampers with them.

In a rental property, that gets managed by an annual/periodic inspection by the landlord (or their agent). - due diligence box ticked...
(Yes - basic electrical safety inspections only need common sense, not a C&G qualification)

Missing covers easily replaced by buying a compatible blanking plate, using the covers and chucking the blanking plate in the spares box.

[88V8]

I rent out a bungalow that was built (in the 1960s?) before it was necessary to have earth wires to the light switches.

The Wiring Regs... an electricians' job creation scheme

Manufacturers have a majority in the controlling council and of course they want to sell new stuff..

Those crappy plastic CU cases with their fall-open doors... I recall when it became apparent that they were a menace, the mandatory replacement was delayed a year... allegedly so the manufacturers and wholesalers could flog off the existing stock.

In our cottage we have porcelain ceiling roses with silk-twist cord, no earth, light switches no earth, pre-war pie-crust switches with spin-off cover, no earth, and 1960s ceiling switches no earth but presumbably they are safe unless spiders webs are conductive.
We're doomed.

Although we do have a new CU with metal fall-shut case and RCBOs that I had installed last year, without fuss about the existing installation.

V8

[csearle]

I rent out a bungalow that was built (in the 1960s?) before it was necessary to have earth wires to the light switches.

In our cottage we have porcelain ceiling roses with silk-twist cord, no earth, light switches no earth, pre-war pie-crust switches with spin-off cover, no earth, and 1960s ceiling switches no earth but presumbably they are safe unless spiders webs are conductive.

So long as the items of which you speak are made of Bakelite, porcelain, wood, silk, plastic(?), etc. then there is little potential for danger. The issue is when some metallic enclosure or exposed metal part can become live as a result of a simple fault to Earth of a live wire. The problem being that it will go completely undetected by the fuseboard so can happen 24/7, 365 days a year and the first anyone knows about it is when they get a belt off the metal. Whether that kills them or not is largely to do with what else they are touching at the time and the path of the ensuing current through the body, but also how wet the person is (hence the increased precautions around wet rooms).

Chris

[9873210]

In our cottage we have porcelain ceiling roses with silk-twist cord, no earth, light switches no earth, pre-war pie-crust switches with spin-off cover, no earth, and 1960s ceiling switches no earth but presumbably they are safe unless spiders webs are conductive.

So long as the items of which you speak are made of Bakelite, porcelain, wood, silk, plastic(?), etc. then there is little potential for danger. The issue is when some metallic enclosure or exposed metal part can become live as a result of a simple fault to Earth of a live wire. The problem being that it will go completely undetected by the fuseboard ...

Which is one reason we have RCDs. If you're lucky the unintentionally energized metal is at least weakly grounded (a few kΩ, which is possible, particularly in wet areas). This won't trip the fuse, but the ground current will trip the RCD; this makes the fault obvious, so it can be fixed, and protects the equipment.
Unfortunately if the ground path is more than about 10kΩ unless somebody touches it the RCD will not trip immediately. If somebody touches it and supplies the weak ground the RCD will trip but only after they get a nasty shock. 30mA is not particularly safe. In the US they require a 5mA limit (in some situations) which goes much further towards protecting people.

A 5mA RCD on a ring main risks nuisance trips. In theory you could put a 5mA RCD on the switch loop. That would significantly reduce the risk without much annoyance. This may not be legal, and even if it is you'd probably have to argue with every sparky that inspects it.

As mentioned up thread the better solution is a low voltage or wireless switch (eg Quinetic). You may still have to argue with a sparky looking for a ground, but it's a much easier argument to win. IMHO low energy switches have many advantages and should be made mandatory. But it probably won't happen in my lifetime. And if it does the public will go through another phase of not being able to find the light switch in unfamiliar buildings.

[csearle]

...

Yes RCDs are a great boon to safety. Sometimes the RCDs trip through leakage through the fabric of the building. They are almost always set to trip at 25mA in my experience. Often though the building is dry and they don't trip.

In the UK we insist upon 5mA RCD protection for school lab sockets and for animal enclosures (IIRC) but someone has apparently figured that a shock through the muscles of the (human) heart will not cause death if the RCD trips within 40ms.

Putting these energy harvesting switches everywhere is not economical from the perspective of an electrician. They tend to be used as a get-out-of-gaol card if wiring to the switch is almost impossible. Actually this happens mostly in stairwells in my experience.

Chris

[9873210]

Putting these energy harvesting switches everywhere is not economical from the perspective of an electrician. They tend to be used as a get-out-of-gaol card if wiring to the switch is almost impossible. Actually this happens mostly in stairwells in my experience.

Chris

Today the wireless equipment costs around £30 per circuit. Compare this to a conventional switch, backbox, a few metres of cable and a few minutes to a few hours of labour. It's only cost effective if the labour approaches an hour or more.

However I'd expect that if wireless switches were a standard item rather than the exotic/luxury they are today the cost would come down to perhaps £10 at which point it does not take too many minutes of labour savings to make them economical.

If the switching function were integrated with the LED power supply as a mass market standard the cost could be less than £1 per circuit, at which point the wire savings alone makes it a huge win.