The Lemon Fool

Further to my recent posts about our boiler issues, the PCB replacement did not fix it so we have been without hot water for 6 days. The engineer is coming back this morning to strip it all back. However, the time has come to look at new boiler recommendations. Last time I asked (2015), I think Mike recommended a Vaillant boiler and we had quotes ready to go, but a new PCB miraculously fixed it. It had run without problem for another 6 years until last week.

So what boiler manufacturers and ranges should I be looking at? Or should I be considering alternatives - heat source pumps etc??

Setup is standard boiler (not a combi) attached to a megaflo water tank with separate expansion unit.

Thanks
C

+1 for Vaillant boilers. Excellent quality for a mainstream brand. I understand that they are now made in Derbyshire too as well as Germany, for me that's a bonus.

Another for Vaillant. I've had 4 in different houses and never had one miss a beat. They get serviced annually. This one is now 6 years old.

One of those houses is now owned by my nephew and the boiler there is well over 12 years old, it has never had an issue.

I did read somewhere recently that recent models were not as good build quality but I don't know how reliable that information is.

Any strong positives or negatives about

Baxi
Worcester
Vaillant

The engineer's company tend to do Baxi and I think they will move quickly for us, but our previous choice had been Vaillant. Mrs C would have a boiler made of firewood and a match at the moment, because no hot water for a week isn't fun. She would go with the quickest installation. That might be Baxi.

Clariman wrote:Any strong positives or negatives about

Baxi
Worcester
Vaillant

The engineer's company tend to do Baxi and I think they will move quickly for us, but our previous choice had been Vaillant. Mrs C would have a boiler made of firewood and a match at the moment, because no hot water for a week isn't fun. She would go with the quickest installation. That might be Baxi.

Baxi: Be careful, Baxi still make and sell the hateful Promax (same as you have now) with a variety of different names on it. So just have a look at any Baxi boiler they supply before letting anyone hang it on the wall.

Worcester: A "Marmite" brand. Installers love 'em, repair techies hate 'em. Several plastic hydraulic components inside noted for cracking and spraying hairline jets of water around, and plenty of in razor-sharp metal edges inside that lacerate the hands of anyone working inside one. I won't work on them. Plenty of work fixing better designed boilers out there! Set against this they have some of the longest guarantees in the business and the best 'in house' guarantee support. If it packs up under guarantee, they will usually get to you within 24hrs and fix it.

Vaillant: Superb boilers, almost impossible to fault. I get only about one call a year to fix one, from which I conclude they rarely go wrong. Wish I could say the same about their flues though. The internal seals in extended flues leak condensate, causing the outer flue tube to corrode though. Vaillant let themselves down terribly with this on-going problem.

Mike4 wrote:

Clariman wrote:Any strong positives or negatives about

Baxi
Worcester
Vaillant

The engineer's company tend to do Baxi and I think they will move quickly for us, but our previous choice had been Vaillant. Mrs C would have a boiler made of firewood and a match at the moment, because no hot water for a week isn't fun. She would go with the quickest installation. That might be Baxi.

Baxi: Be careful, Baxi still make and sell the hateful Promax (same as you have now) with a variety of different names on it. So just have a look at any Baxi boiler they supply before letting anyone hang it on the wall.

Worcester: A "Marmite" brand. Installers love 'em, repair techies hate 'em. Several plastic hydraulic components inside noted for cracking and spraying hairline jets of water around, and plenty of in razor-sharp metal edges inside that lacerate the hands of anyone working inside one. I won't work on them. Plenty of work fixing better designed boilers out there! Set against this they have some of the longest guarantees in the business and the best 'in house' guarantee support. If it packs up under guarantee, they will usually get to you within 24hrs and fix it.

Vaillant: Superb boilers, almost impossible to fault. I get only about one call a year to fix one, from which I conclude they rarely go wrong. Wish I could say the same about their flues though. The internal seals in extended flues leak condensate, causing the outer flue tube to corrode though. Vaillant let themselves down terribly with this on-going problem.

Thanks Mike

So which Baxi names are no-go Promax rebadged and which are decent boilers?

Clariman wrote:

Mike4 wrote:

Clariman wrote:Any strong positives or negatives about

Baxi
Worcester
Vaillant

The engineer's company tend to do Baxi and I think they will move quickly for us, but our previous choice had been Vaillant. Mrs C would have a boiler made of firewood and a match at the moment, because no hot water for a week isn't fun. She would go with the quickest installation. That might be Baxi.

Baxi: Be careful, Baxi still make and sell the hateful Promax (same as you have now) with a variety of different names on it. So just have a look at any Baxi boiler they supply before letting anyone hang it on the wall.

Worcester: A "Marmite" brand. Installers love 'em, repair techies hate 'em. Several plastic hydraulic components inside noted for cracking and spraying hairline jets of water around, and plenty of in razor-sharp metal edges inside that lacerate the hands of anyone working inside one. I won't work on them. Plenty of work fixing better designed boilers out there! Set against this they have some of the longest guarantees in the business and the best 'in house' guarantee support. If it packs up under guarantee, they will usually get to you within 24hrs and fix it.

Vaillant: Superb boilers, almost impossible to fault. I get only about one call a year to fix one, from which I conclude they rarely go wrong. Wish I could say the same about their flues though. The internal seals in extended flues leak condensate, causing the outer flue tube to corrode though. Vaillant let themselves down terribly with this on-going problem.

Thanks Mike

So which Baxi names are no-go Promax rebadged and which are decent boilers?

You're welcome.

One thing I forgot to mention is Worcester boilers are in desperate short supply at the moment due to the microchip shortage and Worcester's chip ordering dept losing the game of chip-buying musical chairs.

You may be well advised to grab any boiler on offer (except another Promax!)

Clariman wrote:So which Baxi names are no-go Promax rebadged and which are decent boilers?

I don't actually know, other than when I look up a manual for a Baxi I don't know much about, as often or not it turns out to be a Promax in drag. I'm afraid I specialise in older 'vintage' or 'legacy' boilers and electric thermal store boilers. I turn away all enquiries to fix modern steamers (aka condensing boilers).

What does your engineer think? Our Mike has expertise, but your engineer *also* has local knowledge!

An alternative that might look particularly attractive if your engineer's availability is an issue would be to go to one of the big box-shifters. Discussed somewhat in my boiler thread from last year (linked from my comment on your wife's cold shower).

My first choice boiler is Vaillant I have one 9 years old, never had a fault. Yet.

We fairly recently had a Worcester boiler replaced at my mother's place by a Baxi. The long time trusted installer showed me the plastic parts off a Worcester boiler that fail. Honestly, I nearly passed out with surprise when I saw the hot water containing plastic parts off the Worcester boiler.

The Baxi has a 10 year warranty and at least in my part of the world, Baxi have a good reputation for attending to warranty claims promptly. That's what decided in favour of the Baxi for my mother.

I absolutely wouldn't recommend anyone fitting a Worcester boiler.

Clariman wrote:So what boiler manufacturers and ranges should I be looking at? Or should I be considering alternatives - heat source pumps etc??

May be of interest: Which Oct 2021

via url: https://imgur.com/vYYKBIc
(no connection with Which other than as subscriber)

Thanks everyone. We managed to get someone out yesterday who supplies Baxi, Worcester and Vaillant. His recommendation from a reliability and build quality POV was the Vaillant Ecotec plus so we are going with that. Installed early next week so 10 days without heat and hot water.

Clariman wrote:Thanks everyone. We managed to get someone out yesterday who supplies Baxi, Worcester and Vaillant. His recommendation from a reliability and build quality POV was the Vaillant Ecotec plus so we are going with that. Installed early next week so 10 days without heat and hot water.

Good choice. Good quality in a main stream brand. That's the boiler we had installed about 9 years ago. No issues, just an annual service.

We are looking to fit a new boiler to our (rented out) 1 bed ground floor flat. The current gas boiler is reported as being on it's last legs ( it's at least 27 years old and it's a Ferolli . It's the same boiler that was in the flat when my wife lived there).

The new boiler needs to supply 5 rads only and provide hot water for a shower. Access go the boiler and flue is at " head level" in the kitchen and it is on an outside wall. Initial quotes including a magnet filter (?) Was for £2500 for " a Bosch " ( no model name specified). We just want a simple, reliable boiler with no WiFi connectivity. Any recommendations and suggested price level ( West Midlands) inc installation?

monabri wrote:We are looking to fit a new boiler to our (rented out) 1 bed ground floor flat. The current gas boiler is reported as being on it's last legs ( it's at least 27 years old and it's a Ferolli . It's the same boiler that was in the flat when my wife lived there).

The new boiler needs to supply 5 rads only and provide hot water for a shower. Access go the boiler and flue is at " head level" in the kitchen and it is on an outside wall. Initial quotes including a magnet filter (?) Was for £2500 for " a Bosch " ( no model name specified). We just want a simple, reliable boiler with no WiFi connectivity. Any recommendations and suggested price level ( West Midlands) inc installation?

Recently paid £2100 for a Baxi combi boiler in a small bungalow, fitted, magnetic filter, new battery remote room thermostat and new condensate discharge pump. North West England, trusted local installer. 10 year boiler warranty.

monabri wrote:We are looking to fit a new boiler to our (rented out) 1 bed ground floor flat. The current gas boiler is reported as being on it's last legs ( it's at least 27 years old and it's a Ferolli . It's the same boiler that was in the flat when my wife lived there).

The new boiler needs to supply 5 rads only and provide hot water for a shower. Access go the boiler and flue is at " head level" in the kitchen and it is on an outside wall. Initial quotes including a magnet filter (?) Was for £2500 for " a Bosch " ( no model name specified). We just want a simple, reliable boiler with no WiFi connectivity. Any recommendations and suggested price level ( West Midlands) inc installation?

I paid just under £1600 all-inclusive, just under a year ago. For a well-reputed Worcester Bosch combi, powering a 3-bed, 2-bathroom house.
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=27572 .

yorkshirelad1 wrote:

Clariman wrote:So what boiler manufacturers and ranges should I be looking at? Or should I be considering alternatives - heat source pumps etc??

May be of interest: Which Oct 2021

via url: https://imgur.com/vYYKBIc
(no connection with Which other than as subscriber)

I found the Which ratings a bit odd.
Of the 7 starred categories, Vaillant got 5 maximum 5-star and 2 4-star
Worcestor-Bosch got 3 5-star, 3 4-star and 1 3-star.

Yet W-B got an overall score of 84% and Vaillant only 76%.
Maybe the price has a higher weighting in the overall score.

Anyway, I've had a Vaillant EcoTec for the past 10-11 years and more than happy with it.

--kiloran

kiloran wrote:Yet W-B got an overall score of 84% and Vaillant only 76%.
Maybe the price has a higher weighting in the overall score.
--kiloran

I noticed that the small print at the bottom of the chart shows how they weight the scores.

yorkshirelad1 wrote:

kiloran wrote:Yet W-B got an overall score of 84% and Vaillant only 76%.
Maybe the price has a higher weighting in the overall score.
--kiloran

I noticed that the small print at the bottom of the chart shows how they weight the scores.

Well spotted! Must learn to read the small print.
Weird that they ignore ease of servicing, ease of fixing a fault, availability of spare parts and build quality

--kiloran

yorkshirelad1 wrote:

kiloran wrote:Yet W-B got an overall score of 84% and Vaillant only 76%.
Maybe the price has a higher weighting in the overall score.
--kiloran

I noticed that the small print at the bottom of the chart shows how they weight the scores.

Which ignores user experience which seems to say that once the WB boilers reach around a decade old the plastic hot water retaining components fail and your boiler leaks?

Personally, I find the use of plastic in hot water service unacceptable for long term reliability***. The tame installer I have known and used for over 30 years says he doesn't know of another make of boiler that uses plastic components in places containing hot water. (Admittedly, he only really works on Baxi, Vaillant and replacing WB with either of those two brands).

*** Yes, I do know that even plastic piping and fittings are now commonly used in central heating systems. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it.