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Wirelessly controlled TRV's

Does what it says on the tin
AF62
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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487016

Postby AF62 » March 16th, 2022, 6:54 pm

DrFfybes wrote:The question is, how much does it actually save? As it is we only tend to heat the rooms we use (the others are on just oer 'frost setting so they get an airing), and turn the home office ones down on the days we don't work, so I'm not convinced the payback is there.


That’s why I went for the cheaper £20 per valve and no hub option I mentioned above.

£60 for timer controlled valves for three rooms seemed an achievable and likely saving, with these rooms being similar to yours, rooms which are occupied and need heating at regular times but otherwise just need to be kept at a frost setting.

And if the use of the rooms is regular and predictable, then such timed valves that I fitted allow a weekly schedule and would save you needing to do turn them on and off manually, and if the room does unexpectedly need to be occupied then pressing a manual override is no issue and then it will revert to the schedule at the next set time.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487017

Postby Itsallaguess » March 16th, 2022, 6:56 pm

DrFfybes wrote:
£200+ for the controller and 2 x TRVs, and circa £40/TRV, would mean (counts on fingers) over £800 to upgrade our system, that's assuming it would work in a thick walled long house. It is also our annual gas bill for the last year (so probably about 50% of next year's).

The question is, how much does it actually save? As it is we only tend to heat the rooms we use (the others are on just over 'frost setting so they get an airing), and turn the home office ones down on the days we don't work, so I'm not convinced the payback is there.

Anyone done any calcs or have practical experience?


Does any benefit have to come on purely monetary terms though?

What if any improvement-costs didn't deliver any actual savings from bills, but instead provided more comfort throughout the home than you used to have, from even the same ongoing outlay?

I'm not suggesting that might be the case here, but I just wanted to offer up the possibility that purely 'financial' payback might not necessarily be the only payback that delivers benefits in these types of 'comfort related' situations...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487045

Postby AF62 » March 16th, 2022, 9:56 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:What if any improvement-costs didn't deliver any actual savings from bills, but instead provided more comfort throughout the home than you used to have, from even the same ongoing outlay?


I doubt any energy reduction measure could produce *more* comfort but some systems or devices might minimise a reduction in comfort whilst providing savings (unless you are talking about effectively rebuilding the property with massive amounts of insulation and continuously running underfloor heating powered by ground source heating, which may reduce ongoing outlay but at huge initial expense).

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487064

Postby Itsallaguess » March 17th, 2022, 5:56 am

AF62 wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
What if any improvement-costs didn't deliver any actual savings from bills, but instead provided more comfort throughout the home than you used to have, from even the same ongoing outlay?


I doubt any energy reduction measure could produce *more* comfort but some systems or devices might minimise a reduction in comfort whilst providing savings (unless you are talking about effectively rebuilding the property with massive amounts of insulation and continuously running underfloor heating powered by ground source heating, which may reduce ongoing outlay but at huge initial expense).


No, I was talking more about this TRV situation, where it might previously have been the case that a large house with a large central heating system might have been difficult to control effectively in terms of how and when parts of the house are used, when that system might be giving out heat.

If, for a given kWh output staying the same, one house is heating areas of it that are not being used at any given time of day, but a house of exactly the same configuration, but with more intelligent TRV's with regards to timing periods is able to modulate those areas of that house that aren't being occupied down, in terms of heat demand, then for a similar heating cost across both houses, we might expect the second house to have warmer, more comfortable rooms that are being given heat by that more intelligent TRV control system...

That was the point I was trying to make - is a focus on pure, financial 'cost savings' perhaps not the only consideration when it comes to potential investment in this type of kit...?

The money spent on gas might well stay the same following any investment, but if you end up with a home that heats the parts of it when and where you're actually using it, in a more intelligent way, then if those living spaces are warmer and more comfortable than they used to be because of that improved control system, then 'comfort' still sounds like a worthwhile consideration to me, outside of just looking for potential savings on bills....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487078

Postby AF62 » March 17th, 2022, 8:29 am

Itsallaguess wrote:No, I was talking more about this TRV situation, where it might previously have been the case that a large house with a large central heating system might have been difficult to control effectively in terms of how and when parts of the house are used, when that system might be giving out heat.

If, for a given kWh output staying the same, one house is heating areas of it that are not being used at any given time of day, but a house of exactly the same configuration, but with more intelligent TRV's with regards to timing periods is able to modulate those areas of that house that aren't being occupied down, in terms of heat demand, then for a similar heating cost across both houses, we might expect the second house to have warmer, more comfortable rooms that are being given heat by that more intelligent TRV control system...


Ah, I see what you were getting at now - Someone who could only afford to heat the whole house to an uncomfortable temperature now using controllable TRVs to heat only the rooms that are occupied to a comfortable temperature.

I was taking it from a position of people who currently heat the whole house to a comfortable temperature because they can afford to now, so any use of controllable TRVs to reduce heating in unoccupied rooms would make it less comfortable.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487102

Postby scotview » March 17th, 2022, 9:51 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
That was the point I was trying to make - is a focus on pure, financial 'cost savings' perhaps not the only consideration when it comes to potential investment in this type of kit...?



I like your reply but there's a little bit more than that. The WHOLE reason for all this change is to reduce CO2.

With a controlled heating system, particularly for a larger property you can reduce the rating of your boiler (and maybe heat pump). Hence less CO2.

BG recommended our new boiler be rated at least 25kW, I signed a waiver and put in a 15kW boiler. It heats the house and hot water no problem. In fact, with our zoned system, we could have put in a 10kW boiler now that I have proved the performance. Cheaper energy cost and more importantly for climate believers less CO2. By the way I'm not a climate warrior.

The .GOV really needs to get advisors that know what they are talking about.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487113

Postby DrFfybes » March 17th, 2022, 11:02 am

scotview wrote:I like your reply but there's a little bit more than that. The WHOLE reason for all this change is to reduce CO2.


I respectfully refer you to the first line on this thread :)

Gan020 wrote:I'd appreciate some help. My heating bills are about to become excessive. I'd like to look at wirelessly controlled TRV's. My electricity bill is going to be around £4k based on April price cap and I reckon I could save 20% on my usage by controlling rooms indvidually.


For some the change is convenience, for others it is environmental, but in this case we were looking at financial.

I am going to get one of these, on Financial grounds. It will control one of the rads in MrsF's office, the one next to the desk with the TRV hidden behind a pile of boxes, paperwork, and who knows what. Because £25 for one is less than the £30 I'll pay the masseur for 30 mins when I inevitable twist my back grovelling around trying to get to it.

Paul

scotview
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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487118

Postby scotview » March 17th, 2022, 11:14 am

DrFfybes wrote:I respectfully refer you to the first line on this thread :)


Yes, but the cost increase in energy is precisely because of the root cause of CO2 reduction targets. That's why all this is kicking off.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487126

Postby Gan020 » March 17th, 2022, 11:55 am

Here are my costings. I have electric for heat and lighting and cooking. No gas or oil or anything else.
I have solar PV for electricity and solar thermal for hot water.
I have economy 7 tariff.

I use about 13,000kW a year and given I have lots of solar in the summer I guess about 11,000kW + is on heat.

Up to around 2-3 years ago electricity was 15p a unit so that came to around £2k a year. (before my feed it tariffs etc which actually meant my net on-going electricty costs were less than zero due to sunk capital costs)

Electricity is now 30p a until = £4k

Based on current wholesale prices, prices are going up again in October. Some are suggesting as much as 50% AGAIN. This will be lower for electricity than gas but I'm perhaps looking at around £5k

The Wiser hub + 2 TRVS is approx £200 and then I need another 15 TRVs at approx. £40 and I strongly suspect I'll need 2 signal boosters. Total cost £900.


I am guessing but I think the savings will be:
1. About 3% through the away/out of the house function. (if we go away for a week I turn the thermostat down or the heating and hot water off but if we go away for one night I do nothing)
2. About 20% in the bedrooms and bathrooms because they will be heated to 21 for far less hours a day
3. About 10% in the main living rooms in house because we don't use them early in the day in the week
4. About 5% in the bedrooms that are not used as I can move the heating to a warmer time of the day when the heat pump COP is better.
5. Another couple of percent as I'm taking some load of the ASHP at peak times and it will use boost mode less

I think if I add it all up and apply suitable proportions to each element a 20% saving seems not unachieveable.
20% of 11kw at 30p/unit = £660. Payback is 18 months if prices do not go up in October, (which they will). Even if saving is 10% it still makes sense to me.

Also, when I come to buy I will decide whether I actually need these TRV's on all rads. I suspect some may not be economic.

Additionally as well as the economic incentive, I will feel good about reducing CO2.

Oh, plus some batteries. About £15 a year I guess.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#487133

Postby scotview » March 17th, 2022, 12:31 pm

Gan020 wrote:Additionally as well as the economic incentive, I will feel good about reducing CO2.



Great post Gan020, thank you for posting.

Not only that but you will be giving your home even more future market appeal. This is something which I am sure is going to become very topical in the not too distant future.

We have just had an energy survey done on our home , it's mid C and with solar could be lower B. I'm sure that heating technology will become more important in future EPC certification. You are fortunately well ahead of the game.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#491215

Postby olbasoil » April 3rd, 2022, 12:04 pm

Sorry to be late to this topic. I installed 15 Wiser TRV's last Summer, replacing a Nest. I had a mix of TRV's. Most existing valves were compatible with the Wiser TRV's and fitting was easy. There were some that needed the valve changing, so I did a complete draindown, so I could deploy the Wisers anywhere on the system, at a later date.

I began with a strategy of fitting them to the least used rooms:- where someone might have turned up the TRV, and forgotten to turn it back down, so I'd discover I'd been heating an unused space for days. Later I went for 95% coverage, because it is simply so much easier to control via Alexa. Now I have all rooms on schedules, providing a minimal predictable heat for different spaces, but often using Alexa to boost when required. I did have a 2 zone heating system plus hot water, but I've fixed one valve to be permanently on, individual radiators makes zone heating redundant.

I sourced the original kit (heatlink, thermostat & 2 TRV's) and almost all the additional TRV's from Ebay/Gumtree etc, Screwfix were also doing a discount at one time. My average cost/trv has been about £32. I also needed to buy two range extenders/smart plug, because the boiler is quite a distance from some TRVs. Each unit has worked perfectly, though some batteries needed changing on the pre-used ones.

I certainly wouldn't be without individual TRV control with both schedules and Alexa. I've also found Drayton technical support to be excellent. For those who also use Home Assistant, the plugin is also very reliable. In theory I could turn up the radiators as part of a welcome home routine, but I think that's more than I need.

My only regret is that I don't have usage figures to measure any (assumed) savings. My supplier changed their system last December, and are unable to provide the old data. With the initial cost of the kit being around £500, I don't think I'll be breaking even for a few years but am very pleased with the convenience.


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