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Wirelessly controlled TRV's

Does what it says on the tin
Gan020
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Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484554

Postby Gan020 » March 5th, 2022, 4:37 pm

I'd appreciate some help. My heating bills are about to become excessive. I'd like to look at wirelessly controlled TRV's. My electricity bill is going to be around £4k based on April price cap and I reckon I could save 20% on my usage by controlling rooms indvidually.

First my setup. I have an AHSP (air-source heat pump) to rads and hot water.
I have 18 rads serving 14 rooms (counting the hall and landing as seperate rooms)

The ASHP is about 10 years old. I have TRV's on my rads. About 9 Honeywell. The 9 or so Honeywell ones are now 20 years old and 2 do not work and appear to be stuck in the open position. I currently use the second valve on the rad to prioritise the warm up of the house in the morning, so bathrooms and bedrooms first.

I have a Honeywell ST9400C timer controller and a wireless thermostat (looks like a DT90E)

So, here are my rambling questions. I want to try and do this myself to keep the costs down. I'm happy dealing with the electrics but whilst I can take a TRV off and replace with like for like that's about my limit for plumbing. I'd like to control it all my smartphone (iphone) and I'm not bothered about the software trying to predict what to do with the heat source. I just want the TRV in each room to heat to a specific temperature at a specific time. So, for example. Bathroom, heat to 22 degrees from 7-8am , a lower temperature in the main part of the day and then back to 22 degrees at bedtime.

1. As my Honeywell TRV's are now 20 years old and 2 don't work should I consider changing them for new
2. I like the Honeywell Home Evohome Radiator system as it seems I can program any TRV for any time and temperature. The HR92 radiator controller seems to be something with my amateur skills I can install myself and would work with likely all my exiting TRV's as the ones which aren't Honeywell look like Drayton and Danfoss at a quick glance. But then I run into problems. I would need to change the controller and I can't see which one I would need. I could figure this out given time but I also see the evohome only deals with 12 zone for 12 rads and I've got 18 which kind of defeats the point. I could probably not put a couple of rads on the timer TRV's but any more than that defeats the point. The Honeywell TRV's are about £65
3. So I looked at the Wiser product from Scheider. I couldn't tell for sure but the TRV's (WV704R0K0902) look like they are £38 each but aren't retrofit to existing TRV's. This is still less than the Honeywell and they look far better and thus my question about the age of my current TRV's and whether I should consider replacing them anyway as they are going to fail like the first two have. I'm a bit scared about chucking the Schneider product onto my Honeywell controls mated to my ASHP. I've already had to change the Honeywell controller before so it looks real easy, but I worry that I'm connecting to an ASHP rather than a boiler. Does this matter? What I can see is the Wiser supports 16 zones with 5 devices in each up to a max of 63 devices which would definitely work for me.

Quite a long post and as I've finised I've kind of landed on the Wiser system. Does anyone see any issues

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484572

Postby staffordian » March 5th, 2022, 6:36 pm

I know this isn't quite what you asked, but have you considered individual (i.e. stand alone, not remotely controllable) programmable thermostatic radiator valves?

They offer the ability to preset different temperatures at different times of day, so would appear to produce the result you are after, but avoid the potential complications involved in wireless control and integration with existing systems.

I've no experience of them myself but recall at least one Lemonfool (@itsallaguess?) has extolled their virtues here in the past.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484577

Postby BullDog » March 5th, 2022, 7:05 pm

For the stuck TRVs - Unscrew the collar holding the thermostatic head and remove the head off the TRV body.

Observe a pin sticking a few mm out of the top of the TRV body. Press the pin inwards. It should spring return again after being pressed and released. If it is sticking it won't spring return.

I have had success by spraying a bit of WD40 or similar onto the pin and letting it run into the valve body down the pin. You may have to carefully encourage the pin to return outwards with a pair of pliers. Be careful, it only moves a couple of mm or so.

Once you have the TRV pin moving, you should find that it frees off with help of the WD40 and repeatedly pressing and it springing back again.

Once it's free, refit the TRV head with the screw collar. You should now have a functioning TRV.

Assuming, of course, that the TRV head is working OK. I have never seen one that isn't working, even more than 20 years old. There's really nothing to break in the head.

It's 99% certain the pin is sticking as I described. Hope that helps.

One more thing, you can often fit the smart thermostatic heads to your original TRVs if you ensure the smart head is compatible with your brand of TRV. Ofcourse, the TRV has to be working, not stuck.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484581

Postby scotview » March 5th, 2022, 7:38 pm

Gan020 wrote:First my setup. I have an AHSP (air-source heat pump) to rads and hot water.
I have 18 rads serving 14 rooms (counting the hall and landing as seperate rooms)


We have 14 radiators and hot water cylinder from a gas boiler. I looked at individual wireless TRVs on each radiator powered with AA batteries. My main issue was that I was having sticking TRV pins on the radiator valves. These need to be fully functioning for the system to work well. Also my wife didn't like the idea of replacing the batteries.

We decided to go down the route of installing 4 individual motorised zone valves for heating and a motorised valve for the HW cylinder. This isn't so dependent on having having good TRV operation since there are 4 zone thermostats.

Just one point please, I was under the impression that an ASHP was most efficient running continuously at a low circulating temperature. Will an ASHP
perform well with stopping and starting heating circuits ?

Itsallaguess
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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484590

Postby Itsallaguess » March 5th, 2022, 8:07 pm

staffordian wrote:
I know this isn't quite what you asked, but have you considered individual (i.e. stand alone, not remotely controllable) programmable thermostatic radiator valves?

They offer the ability to preset different temperatures at different times of day, so would appear to produce the result you are after, but avoid the potential complications involved in wireless control and integration with existing systems.

I've no experience of them myself but recall at least one Lemonfool (@itsallaguess?) has extolled their virtues here in the past.


Well remembered!

We only have our bedroom radiator turned on at all over the winter, but even then, we like the rest-of-house radiators to stay on until around 8pm, which would leave our bedroom far too warm for a comfortable night's sleep, so we looked for a local solution just for the one bedroom radiator...

We installed one of these many years ago -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Homexpert-Heating-Controls-Electronic-HR20UK/dp/B007AQ71U4

It was the simplest of installations, with the head of the original TRV removed, and the above unit screwed on in it's place, and it's timed to automatically turn off our bedroom radiator completely around 5pm during the winter months, with the rest of the house normally being run warm until around 8pm. The whole process was pain-free, and it's worked for many years now, using just two AA batteries each year.

It's an old model now, and I note that the above link on Amazon actually says it's not available for sale any more from there, but there are many similar 'standalone' models available nowadays, without any fancy wireless networking features, and I think anyone looking for a solution to a primarily 'time-based' problem, such as the one that we had, would do well to consider these types of more basic models as a relatively cheap solution, and certainly one that I'd recommend trying before heading down potentially more expensive 'smart' models...

One tip I would recommend for anyone using these types of TRV's for timing-based issues, would be to think about re-opening times carefully. Being motorised units, they do tend to make enough noise to wake you up if you're a relatively light sleeper like me. As such, setting a timer for the TRV to re-open in the early morning to accept heat from the more remote boiler would wake me up too early, so I actually set our TRV to re-open at 9pm, an hour after the boiler-timer itself shuts down for the night, and that way it's already re-opened by the time we go to bed, and stays open all night ready for the boiler to kick in around 5.45am in the morning, and so we avoid any early-morning TRV motor noise affecting our sleep at that earlier time.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484752

Postby Bminusrob » March 6th, 2022, 7:41 pm

We have a Hive system, with both Hive thermostat and Hive TRVs but according to this link (https://community.hivehome.com/s/articl ... thermostat.), you can use the TRVs without a Hive thermostat. The TRVs come with adapters for most types of radiators, so you can fit them yourself.

Our system works brilliantly. It is controlled with a smartphone app, meaning we can change the settings when we are away from home. The app comes with a "holiday mode" setting, so if you are on holiday, you can set the heating to only come on if the temperature gets really cold while you are away, but is turned back on ready for your return. a couple of weeks ago, we used the holiday mode, while we were away visiting a member of our family. When we extended the stay, we simply extended the "holiday mode" period remotely. Brilliant.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484813

Postby DrFfybes » March 7th, 2022, 8:59 am

I have been wondering about these myself. We currently just run up and downstairs at various times of day and manually turn the TRVs off and back on in the bedrooms, if we remember.

Presumably the self contained ones can be set for different days (so MrsF's office only warms up on her work days) and have a manual override? Living in an old building with thick walls some rooms don't get wifi, so would that preclude the Hive based systems?

For us it isn't as much saving money heating empty rooms, as much as the microbore pipe restricts flow and the boiler struggles to heat the house so shutting a couple of double rads off means the lounge and kitchen don't take 40 mins to get warm.

We're supposedly having a quote for new boiler and heating system this week so might look at the controls as well, although cant do much about the micobore buried in the plaster or the 1780s build options for insulation.

Paul

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484814

Postby SMarkus » March 7th, 2022, 9:00 am

Have a look at the Tado system. We have a Tado Smart Wired thermostat which replaced the old Honeywell dial stat in our hall, then Smart TRVs in both Kitchen and Living Room. These are both rooms (on the same heating zone) which are heated to some degree all day - the nice thing about the Tado TRVs is that when linked with the Smart Wired thermostat, each room TRV can individually control demand for heat. This means that whereas previously I had to fiddle with the Hall dial stat to get temperature comfortable in either room (and then the other room was either too cold or too hot), now each room is individually controlled. Seems to work very well.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484819

Postby BullDog » March 7th, 2022, 9:11 am

SMarkus wrote:Have a look at the Tado system. We have a Tado Smart Wired thermostat which replaced the old Honeywell dial stat in our hall, then Smart TRVs in both Kitchen and Living Room. These are both rooms (on the same heating zone) which are heated to some degree all day - the nice thing about the Tado TRVs is that when linked with the Smart Wired thermostat, each room TRV can individually control demand for heat. This means that whereas previously I had to fiddle with the Hall dial stat to get temperature comfortable in either room (and then the other room was either too cold or too hot), now each room is individually controlled. Seems to work very well.

I think the TADO is pick of the bunch. I didn't buy when looking recently. Firstly, TADO are now charging a monthly fee for some of the smart features. And secondly, my Vaillant boiler is just a bit too old to work in modulating mode with the TADO. It was the latter feature I particularly wanted, sadly, it doesn't do what I wanted. If I was upgrading the boiler I might have bought the TADO but there's a nagging doubt in my mind about the creeping of scope for the monthly fee. I think the monthly fee would totally outweigh any energy or convenience savings for me. Otherwise, yes, TADO is the pick of the current systems in my opinion.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484822

Postby Bminusrob » March 7th, 2022, 9:30 am

DrFfybes wrote:I have been wondering about these myself. We currently just run up and downstairs at various times of day and manually turn the TRVs off and back on in the bedrooms, if we remember.

Presumably the self contained ones can be set for different days (so MrsF's office only warms up on her work days) and have a manual override? Living in an old building with thick walls some rooms don't get wifi, so would that preclude the Hive based systems?

For us it isn't as much saving money heating empty rooms, as much as the microbore pipe restricts flow and the boiler struggles to heat the house so shutting a couple of double rads off means the lounge and kitchen don't take 40 mins to get warm.

We're supposedly having a quote for new boiler and heating system this week so might look at the controls as well, although cant do much about the micobore buried in the plaster or the 1780s build options for insulation.

Paul

The TRVs are each controllable so you can set up different schedules of on, off and temperature for different time of day, and different schedules for each day of the week.

The TRVs use WIFI, but I also live in a very old Devon long house with very thick walls, and I have two WIFI extenders helping me get WIFI to the whole house. I am not sure exactly how the communication system works, but my guess is that each TRV stores its program (which can be manually overridden when required). If this is indeed the case, you only need WIFI communication while setting up (or changing) the schedule.

Microbore systems sometimes respond well to having the system flushed. It certainly helped in our previous house, which was in a hard water area. However, if the microbore is a real issue, I was pleasantly surprised how relatively cheap it was to have a whole central heating system installed. For just under £10000, we had a complete system (17 radiators, two zones, meaty oil boiler and a large unvented hot water cylinder) fitted. (2020/21 prices)

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484841

Postby DrFfybes » March 7th, 2022, 11:35 am

Bminusrob wrote:The TRVs are each controllable so you can set up different schedules of on, off and temperature for different time of day, and different schedules for each day of the week.

The TRVs use WIFI, but I also live in a very old Devon long house with very thick walls, and I have two WIFI extenders helping me get WIFI to the whole house. I am not sure exactly how the communication system works, but my guess is that each TRV stores its program (which can be manually overridden when required). If this is indeed the case, you only need WIFI communication while setting up (or changing) the schedule.


That's good to know - we are in a similar position but simply cannot get wifi to the one in the corner of MrsF's office, even trying daisy chaining BT discs, so in the end usedpowerline adaptors. I was concerned some needed a signal from some central hub (or 'nest'?) to switch.
Microbore systems sometimes respond well to having the system flushed. It certainly helped in our previous house, which was in a hard water area. However, if the microbore is a real issue, I was pleasantly surprised how relatively cheap it was to have a whole central heating system installed. For just under £10000, we had a complete system (17 radiators, two zones, meaty oil boiler and a large unvented hot water cylinder) fitted. (2020/21 prices)


The system will have to be flushed, our problem is solid ground floors so each room has its own drop from the 'ring' under the upstairs floor. Re-pipiing is out preferred option, but it will mean boxed drops in each room, or channeling out the ground floor around the house, and either way pretty much exculdes zoning without pretty much emptying the house to get all the carpets up and furniture moved.

Paul

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484915

Postby scotview » March 7th, 2022, 4:10 pm

BullDog wrote:I think the TADO is pick of the bunch. I didn't buy when looking recently. Firstly, And secondly, my Vaillant boiler is just a bit too old to work in modulating mode with the TADO.

Yes, I looked at TADO and actually bought a couple of TRVs to test, we thought they were too noisy for a bedroom, the radiator adaptors were very good.

With regard to your point on modulation. With wireless TRVs or a Zoned system, one can install a boiler of a much smaller kW rating, since it will normally be heating single or fewer rooms. The smaller the boiler the less gas used and the more likely that it will modulate succesfully to a much lower firing rate. Most boilers in the UK are probably 30% oversized.

For those of you with wireless TRVs, could you confirm whether you have only one or two TRVs or whether all of your radiators have TRVs. My feeling is that a wireless TRV system isn't being fully exploited until all radiators are being being controlled by TRVs. If I am wrong in this assumption could you explain how a partial installation operates,
Many thanks.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484927

Postby BullDog » March 7th, 2022, 4:56 pm

scotview wrote:
BullDog wrote:I think the TADO is pick of the bunch. I didn't buy when looking recently. Firstly, And secondly, my Vaillant boiler is just a bit too old to work in modulating mode with the TADO.

Yes, I looked at TADO and actually bought a couple of TRVs to test, we thought they were too noisy for a bedroom, the radiator adaptors were very good.

With regard to your point on modulation. With wireless TRVs or a Zoned system, one can install a boiler of a much smaller kW rating, since it will normally be heating single or fewer rooms. The smaller the boiler the less gas used and the more likely that it will modulate succesfully to a much lower firing rate. Most boilers in the UK are probably 30% oversized.

For those of you with wireless TRVs, could you confirm whether you have only one or two TRVs or whether all of your radiators have TRVs. My feeling is that a wireless TRV system isn't being fully exploited until all radiators are being being controlled by TRVs. If I am wrong in this assumption could you explain how a partial installation operates,
Many thanks.

Thanks, point taken about boiler sizing. Unfortunately, my perfectly good Vaillant is just a bit too old for modulating control with a TADO. Shame really, it only supports on/off control. And changing the boiler isn't an option at the moment. But absolutely for certain I will buy a new boiler at the latest if there's any chance of them going obsolete. Thanks.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#484935

Postby scrumpyjack » March 7th, 2022, 5:34 pm

I put in a Tado system several years ago on my 35 year oil heating system. It is excellent and allows schedules for each room and all can be controlled via the mobile phone. I can't hear them at all, unless I put my ear next to them, so I am surprised at the comment about noise.

I built the system up bit by bit rather than getting all at once. Keep an eye on Amazon and buy when cheap, the prices go up and down.
The only problem is that some of our TRVs are so old they are imperial not metric size, but one can get adaptors which work fine.

Highly recommend it. One can easily set it to turn off the bedrooms heating at times they are not used, on a separate schedule for each room.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#485418

Postby chris » March 9th, 2022, 3:58 pm

We have the Heat Genius solution at our house. Every room is a separate zone and can be controlled individually. In rooms with 2 radiators or bedroom with an en-suite, we link those into 1 location. We have a 5 bedroomed house and have radiators going on and off at different times of the day as needed. You can also override the timer if you want a room heated immediately and set how long you want it on for or set it to stay on until the next scheduled timer event. You need 1 room that is not on a sensor and this is the downstairs loo (warmest room in the house). Not sure why it is needed but it isn't oppressively hot.

We have 11 zones.

It is not a cheap system but definitely opt for them to install it as this is cheaper than getting a plumber to do it as they do pre-setup things and also will swap out thermostats etc. It takes a lot of time to set up so the set up fee is well worth it (it was £199 when we did it - not sure now). I think that we got the plumber to put valves on the radiators that were compatible with the radiator valves. We initially got some room sensors, but we don't tend to use them that much so I wouldn't bother with them initially if you went for it.

I think that we saved about 30% on kWhs in the first year and I haven't really looked at it since. We also used to have issues with the radiators at the end of the chain not getting as hot, but because all radiators are never on together, this is no longer a problem.

I think that we've had it for about 5 years now and there was one year when it didn't come on properly but our plumber called them up and they sorted it out with him.

It was a large initial outlay but I think that it has paid for itself at low gas charges and will give us proportionally more savings now that prices are really high.

Chris

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#485809

Postby AF62 » March 11th, 2022, 11:38 am

Just bought and fitted some of these - https://www.eq-3.com/products/homematic ... ostat.html

They are not WiFi controlled and don't link into any of the heating systems like Hive, Nest, Honeywell, etc. but are simple thermostatic valves with timers that you can set a schedule for (multiple schedules per day and different schedules every day of the week), and you can do that (and alter the settings) by using the Bluetooth app. In addition holiday mode, frost protection, boost, open window detection - loads of functions I will probably never use.

They appear to have been discontinued by most suppliers but I picked up some brand new ones on eBay for £20 each, which is significantly cheaper than the Hive, Tado, etc. radiator valves.

Fitting to replace Danfoss RA valves took a couple of minutes each, and so far they seem to work and are very quiet in operation. Time will tell if they save any money.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#486926

Postby Gan020 » March 16th, 2022, 1:39 pm

Update.

I went for the Wiser system from Schneider and bought the starter pack with a hub, room thermostat and two radiator TRV's. Part of the reason is that they say they specifically support heat pumps and I found the helpline great when I phoned with a couple of questions.

So, far so good. Took me about 10 minutes to install the hub. Took off the Honeywell controller, checked the wiring was as expected and put the Wiser one on. I was able to use the industry standard backplate so I didn't even have to touch the wiring.

The app to install the heating schedules is great, although it took me a little while to become comfortable with it.

Installing the electronic TRV's takes about 5 minutes per rad.

Having used to for a few days I now intend to buy another 15 or so radiator TRV's.

I can only see one downside. The software appears to instruct my ASHP to call for heat when any device is below temperature by what seems to be about half a degree. The issue with this is that without TRV's on every rad, some rads are going to get almost continously heated up. I will avoid this by putting the Wiser TRV's on every rad, or for the few rooms I don't require a schedule just continuing to use the existing TRV's. However, I'm pretty sure I'm going to need one rad in open circuit and that room could end up getting excessively hot.

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#486933

Postby scotview » March 16th, 2022, 2:10 pm

Gan020 wrote:Update.
Having used to for a few days I now intend to buy another 15 or so radiator TRV's.


Thanks for the feedback Gan020, very interesting and you answered my question about the need for a TRV on each radiator.

If this works successfully with your heat pump and you dont have too much thermal inertia, that sounds like a game changer to me. Would appreciate if you could give some performance feed back after a while, especially after you fit out all radiator valves.

Again, many thanks for taking the time,

Scotview

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#486988

Postby DrFfybes » March 16th, 2022, 5:04 pm

I've been looking at these, and the Drayton Wiser system.

£200+ for the controller and 2 x TRVs, and circa £40/TRV, would mean (counts on fingers) over £800 to upgrade our system, that's assuming it would work in a thick walled long house. It is also our annual gas bill for the last year (so probably about 50% of next year's).

The question is, how much does it actually save? As it is we only tend to heat the rooms we use (the others are on just oer 'frost setting so they get an airing), and turn the home office ones down on the days we don't work, so I'm not convinced the payback is there.

Anyone done any calcs or have pratical experience?

Paul

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Re: Wirelessly controlled TRV's

#486994

Postby BullDog » March 16th, 2022, 5:41 pm

DrFfybes wrote:I've been looking at these, and the Drayton Wiser system.

£200+ for the controller and 2 x TRVs, and circa £40/TRV, would mean (counts on fingers) over £800 to upgrade our system, that's assuming it would work in a thick walled long house. It is also our annual gas bill for the last year (so probably about 50% of next year's).

The question is, how much does it actually save? As it is we only tend to heat the rooms we use (the others are on just oer 'frost setting so they get an airing), and turn the home office ones down on the days we don't work, so I'm not convinced the payback is there.

Anyone done any calcs or have pratical experience?

Paul

By the sound of it, you pretty successfully optimise what you have manually. I expect automating what you do already would be more for convenience than anything else?


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