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Central Heating Problems

Does what it says on the tin
Bouleversee
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Central Heating Problems

#489114

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 12:18 pm

I have quite a large bungalow which had been extended laterally with a large office over the garage, otherwise all the accommodation is on the ground floor. There are 2 separate heating systems: a Worcester Bosch boiler in the loft at one end, with a h.w. cylinder in the hall below. The other half of the house, the newest bit, is served by a Potterton Prima on the far garage wall at the opposite end of the house with a cylinder in a cupboard in the breakfast room which is adjacent to the garage.

I have been having problems with the thermostatic valves on some of my radiators at the new end which weren't turning off at the level they were set to; there is no roomstat on that system. I turned them off completely in my bedroom and then couldn't turn them back on at all (they are those Drayton ones with sloping plastic tops with splits in them which are very difficult to turn) so I have been managing with a fan heater while dressing, and planning to get someone in to change them when I found time to do so. Then a week or so ago, I noticed that there was a humming noise when the heating came on which hadn't been there before so I called in a heating firm and arranged for them to investigate this and change the thermo. valves on 4 rads if necessary. They changed the valves after freezing the pipes and then when they switched the heating on again, found that the rads in the office upstairs didn't get hot. The engineer tried to bleed one of the rads which surprised me as I though you had to turn the heating off and wait for the pump to stop before doing so. No air or water came out and the rad was completely cold apart from at the very bottom. He then asked where the expansion tank was and said this was very low in relation to the height of those rads and he was surprised they had ever worked, which I assured him they did; they had always been hot throughout and I had to keep them on a fairly low setting. They had to leave for another job and I noticed that when the boiler (which he had turned up) came on there was a squelching noise which I mentioned to him and it was agreed that II should bleed all the rads on that system after it had been off for some time. Again, the other rads produced water immediately but the 2 upstairs never did although I held the valve open with the key, towel ready to catch the first drip, for some time. When I turned the system back on there was a lot of gurgling. Having been up since 6 I Had to get to bed and after a disturbed night didn't wake till after the heating came on at 6 a.m. There was a lot of squelching in the bathroom towel rail and the upstairs rads were still cold. I turned the heating off, let it cool down, bled the towel rail which had a lot of air in it, the others were OK but the upstairs ones (which hadn't heated) produced a slight whining noise but no water after holding the key open for a long time. I should mention that at this end of the house, the pipes are small bore. When I turned the heating back on again, no rads got hot and when I went into the garage I could hear the pump producing the humming noise which I don't think it used to do but the boiler didn't appear to be firing.

I have reported all this to the heating firm by email but no response so far so all I have to show for this exercise is no heating at all at the end of the house I live in and a bill for £295,

Has anyone any suggestions as to what might have happened here? What do you suppose has happened to the water in those upstairs rads? They didn't mention draining any off but I wasn't watching what they were doing when they froze the pipes (which I should mention are small bore on that end of the house). The rad valves they installed were a make I h ave never heard of - Ecocel. Anyone know anything about those? What do I do now? They haven't left me any info about them. I did ask at the outset if they could check whether the inhibitor level was OK but nothing was done about that. Is it OK to mix inhibitors? I don't know what make has been used here previously but this engineer said they didn't use Furnox which is the only one I know.

If it ends up that I need a new boiler, which now seems likely, what is the best make to have. He said not Worcester Bosch, he preferred Vaillant. I don't know anything about them. How can I make sure I deal with a firm whose engineers know what they are doing? I don't know what these 2 have done but those rads were were working perfectly before and up in the office was the warmest part of the house most of the time.

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489123

Postby BullDog » March 25th, 2022, 12:37 pm

Vaillant would be an excellent choice. I would avoid Worcester Bosch and buy the Vaiilant myself.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489125

Postby Itsallaguess » March 25th, 2022, 12:39 pm

I think I'd avoid these guys B..

Not so much because they've clearly caused the now-cold-radiator problem in the first place, although that would be bad enough on it's own, but the fact that they can't diagnose or solve this emergent issue now it's staring them in the face....

Another vote for Vaillant from me as well, but I wouldn't be installing a new boiler off the back of these guys saying so....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Bouleversee
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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489127

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 12:45 pm

BullDog wrote:Vaillant would be an excellent choice. I would avoid Worcester Bosch and buy the Vaiilant myself.


What's wrong with Worcester Bosch? The boiler in the old part of the house was installed in Nov. 2003 apparently and, touch wood, is still going strong.

Do the Vaillant boilers have the facility to convert to hydrogen or combination thereof when h. becomes available? I was hoping my boilers would last till it was.

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489129

Postby Dod101 » March 25th, 2022, 12:50 pm

Surely the most important thing at the moment is to get the heating back and operational now. I would ask around your neighbours to see if anyone can introduce a reliable heating engineer. When you identify one get them to come and give the entire system a check and do not let them go until it is up and running again. Then after that ask them for their opinion on the boiler. Old boilers can run for a surprisingly long time.

Dod

Bouleversee
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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489135

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 12:57 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:I think I'd avoid these guys B..

Not so much because they've clearly caused the now-cold-radiator problem in the first place, although that would be bad enough on it's own, but the fact that they can't diagnose or solve this emergent issue now it's staring them in the face....

Another vote for Vaillant from me as well, but I wouldn't be installing a new boiler off the back of these guys saying so....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


I'm not paying their bill in a hurry. What would you do about that? They were supposed to be coming back to service the boilers another day. It is definitely not igniting but the humming noise is there till I turn the system off. Incidentally, if a thermo. valve isn't working properly do you have to replace the whole valve or can you replace just the head? Or is there any other way of stopping the pin from sticking?

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489137

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 1:02 pm

Dod101 wrote:Surely the most important thing at the moment is to get the heating back and operational now. I would ask around your neighbours to see if anyone can introduce a reliable heating engineer. When you identify one get them to come and give the entire system a check and do not let them go until it is up and running again. Then after that ask them for their opinion on the boiler. Old boilers can run for a surprisingly long time.

Dod


This chap was recommended by a neighbour. I will certainly chase them to come and sort the problem out but if he has killed the boiler and jiggered the system I'm not sure he will be able to get it up and running again. The fact that he hasn't been in touch after I had updated him is worrying. In the meantime, I am trying to inform myself as far as possible so I can evaluate what he does know.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489142

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » March 25th, 2022, 1:10 pm

I'm not a plumber

Do you think the pump is not working as it should?

AiY(D)

Bouleversee
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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489151

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 1:27 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:I'm not a plumber

Do you think the pump is not working as it should?

AiY(D)


That's what I had assumed but they never checked that before they started and now the boiler isnt working.

staffordian
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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489153

Postby staffordian » March 25th, 2022, 1:35 pm

Bouleversee wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:I'm not a plumber

Do you think the pump is not working as it should?

AiY(D)


That's what I had assumed but they never checked that before they started and now the boiler isnt working.

If the pump has failed, perhaps this might cause the boiler to not work?

My instinct is that a failed pump would not stop the boiler from firing, but because the water isn't circulating, the boiler would overheat and cut out almost immediately.

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489155

Postby Mike4 » March 25th, 2022, 1:39 pm

Bouleversee wrote:No air or water came out and the rad was completely cold apart from at the very bottom.


This alone tells us your system probably has a blocked cold fill pipe, preventing the header tank from keeping the system properly full of water.

Also supported by the humming noise you mentioned which I think might be the pump running dry, and the squelching noise the boiler is making.

Cold fill pipes on systems old enough to have a Prima boiler commonly suffer from this problem.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489158

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » March 25th, 2022, 1:44 pm

Bouleversee wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:I'm not a plumber

Do you think the pump is not working as it should?

AiY(D)


That's what I had assumed but they never checked that before they started and now the boiler isnt working.

I'm going to sound really trite now, so please forgive me :) Have you tried this website?

https://trustedtraders.which.co.uk/

As I've said I'm not a plumber but from what you've mentioned I'm not sure the company who have been are plumbers too.

I think a second opinion, or someone on TLF who's a plumber who can point you towards the problem will help.

AiY(D)

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489163

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 1:57 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:I'm not a plumber

Do you think the pump is not working as it should?

AiY(D)


That's what I had assumed but they never checked that before they started and now the boiler isnt working.

I'm going to sound really trite now, so please forgive me :) Have you tried this website?

https://trustedtraders.which.co.uk/

As I've said I'm not a plumber but from what you've mentioned I'm not sure the company who have been are plumbers too.

I think a second opinion, or someone on TLF who's a plumber who can point you towards the problem will help.

AiY(D)


This is what is on the bottom of his emails:

Member of the Which? Trusted trader scheme. For further information see www.whichtraders.co.uk

I belong to the Premiere Chapter of a local business group known as BNI. We represent a group of local business professionals that have been carefully vetted based on credentials, experience and reputation. Our members are all well-known and trusted within our group and the local community. If you are looking for a reliable supplier please contact me and I will put you in touch with them.

We are also looking for reputable professionals to expand our group and the services we provide. If you, or anyone you know, are interested in growing a business and could benefit from being in a dynamic networking group, please contact me.

So where do I go from here?

Bouleversee
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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489165

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 2:19 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:No air or water came out and the rad was completely cold apart from at the very bottom.


This alone tells us your system probably has a blocked cold fill pipe, preventing the header tank from keeping the system properly full of water.

Also supported by the humming noise you mentioned which I think might be the pump running dry, and the squelching noise the boiler is making.

Cold fill pipes on systems old enough to have a Prima boiler commonly suffer from this problem.


As you know, I am an old lady and although I probably know more about heating than most ladies of my age, there is an awful lot I don't know. When you turn on your heating, does the water in all the radiators move around the system and get heated as it passes through the boiler? I have never thought about this before. As I said, they froze the pipes using my loo paper, wetted, around the pipes which I thought rather strange. If you clocked that the pipes to and from the rads on this system are small bore, could freezing them have caused a blockage and if you are right in suggesting that there is a blockage, what can be done about this? If these rads are now empty because of a blockage, where has this water gone? Presumably through some overflow somewhere via the expansion tank? So this is a firm of trusted traders and this is what happens. Where, please, do I go from here? The Potterton Prima F boiler was installed in November 2003 by the previous owners who had the extension built. I think it may have been a replacement for a previous one, come to think of it. Must check when the extension was built but that will have to wait till I have forced myself to eat something for the first time today. I noticed that there is a box in one of my cupboards containing a Drayton valve which is the same as the ones which were replaced, a Drayton RT212 Reverse flow. I presume my late hushand must have bought it and not used it. Does Reverse Flow have any significance in this context?

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489178

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 3:08 pm

P.S. to previous post: I should perhaps remind you that the radiators which are not filling are not the ones which had their pipes frozen and the valves replaced and I had not had any problems with them till yesterday.

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489184

Postby 88V8 » March 25th, 2022, 3:36 pm

Bouleversee wrote:....the rads in the office upstairs didn't get hot. ...

He then asked where the expansion tank was and said this was very low in relation to the height of those rads ...

..the 2 upstairs never did ...

the upstairs ones (which hadn't heated) ...

Has anyone any suggestions as to what might have happened here? ..those rads were were working perfectly before and up in the office was the warmest part of the house most of the time.


It will take a little while for the pipes to thaw, a few hours.... then the water should flow ... one is supposed to use a special foam sleeve for pipe freezing, not loo paper, ye gods...

So... is it just the upstairs rads that don't heat?

I'd look in the expansion tank and see if there's any water.
And crucially, it's not just an expansion tank, it's the feed and expansion tank.
That's where the water comes from to fill the system.

Also, customarily it's where the vent pipe goes that releases any temporary overpressure, which is why he implied that it needs a certain height above the rads otherwise there's a risk of it venting too often, and that can cause problems with which I won't weary you.

So pop up and look in the tank. If it's dry, try wobbling the ball valve in case it's stuck. If there's a stopcock or gate valve either on the feed to the ball valve or the pipe from the tank, check it's turned on.

Ecocal.. Italian... foreign... [sniff]...bumph about the Ecocal valve here https://www.advancedwater.co.uk/STOMEMO/A014-512-0006/Altecnic%20EcoCal%20TRV%20Spec%20Sheet.pdf
Bottom right shows how to set it.

V8

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489189

Postby Bouleversee » March 25th, 2022, 4:20 pm

88v8
Well, that was yesterday afternoon and maybe they weren't thawed by the time they left though the pipes are very thin but he should have known that.
All the other rads got hot but now none of them are because the boiler is not igniting. I did ask him if had checked the tank and the ballcock and he said yes. I daren't try to climb up to the loft to check it myself as I am disabled and on my own but I'll see if I can get someone else to or my son may be comng here on Sunday. I don't see any evidence of an overflow dripping outside. Come to think of it, I think they may have had a couple of buckets with them. I wish I had watched what they were doing.

ILl have a look at your link re ecocal next. Will also read the thread re whether to turn down/off heating or have on lower setting continuously. I had been trying to economise by turning off bedroom during the day.

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489195

Postby 88V8 » March 25th, 2022, 4:47 pm

Bouleversee wrote:Well, that was yesterday afternoon and maybe they weren't thawed by the time they left though the pipes are very thin but he should have known that.
All the other rads got hot but now none of them are because the boiler is not igniting. I did ask him if had checked the tank and the ballcock and he said yes. I don't see any evidence of an overflow dripping outside. Come to think of it, I think they may have had a couple of buckets with them. I wish I had watched what they were doing.

Pipes will have thawed in a couple of hours.

Buckets... when changing the valves they will have had to drain the rads. That water should then have been put back into the system via the header tank.
Should have.

Overflow... no...
The question is whether there's any water at all in the tank... not whether there's too much.
And whether the valve from the tank to the system is turned on, as it should be.

When freezing, they will likely have turned off the lockshield valves... the ones at the opposite end of the rad. I suppose they turned them back on? That would stop the rads heating although you would still be able to bleed water out.
If they are on, don't disturb the setting as those valves are used to balance the system, and they should have been re-opened to the exact same extent as they were before.

If the house is well insulated, can leave heating on all day. If not well insulated, let it go off during the day.

V8

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489196

Postby csearle » March 25th, 2022, 4:50 pm

Bouleversee wrote:...
Lorna, have you tried this guy. He is about one hour(ish) away from you but would probably be happy to help so long as you accepted he'd charge for travel to/from his home? One thing you could be assured of is that he would be very straightforward with his advice. C.

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Re: Central Heating Problems

#489202

Postby Dod101 » March 25th, 2022, 5:04 pm

Bouleversee wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Surely the most important thing at the moment is to get the heating back and operational now. I would ask around your neighbours to see if anyone can introduce a reliable heating engineer. When you identify one get them to come and give the entire system a check and do not let them go until it is up and running again. Then after that ask them for their opinion on the boiler. Old boilers can run for a surprisingly long time.

Dod


This chap was recommended by a neighbour. I will certainly chase them to come and sort the problem out but if he has killed the boiler and jiggered the system I'm not sure he will be able to get it up and running again. The fact that he hasn't been in touch after I had updated him is worrying. In the meantime, I am trying to inform myself as far as possible so I can evaluate what he does know.


I am an old guy but fortunately I have a network of contractors that I feel I can trust. My only problem is a roofing man. They seem to be a law unto themselves. Sounds as if you may have an answer from csearle. It is not easy when you are not so young as I know and I wish you well in getting this sorted out.

Dod


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