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outside power supply

Does what it says on the tin
NapoleonD
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outside power supply

#495111

Postby NapoleonD » April 19th, 2022, 7:37 am

Moderator Message:
Moved from DAK



Hi all, basic question.

We had an outside power supply (fitted by an electrician) last year. However, he didn't fit an 'isolator' to the supply, meaning i can't switch the power off from inside the house.

I can access the cable, is this what i should be fitting?

Power supply powers lawnmower, occasionally an inflatable hot tub.

TIA.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/13a-switched ... lsrc=aw.ds

Spet0789
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Re: outside power supply

#495115

Postby Spet0789 » April 19th, 2022, 7:54 am

Most important thing is that there’s an RCD on it. Outside power sources more prone to accidents (mowing through the cable for example!).

Dod101
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Re: outside power supply

#495117

Postby Dod101 » April 19th, 2022, 8:06 am

NapoleonD wrote:Hi all, basic question.

We had an outside power supply (fitted by an electrician) last year. However, he didn't fit an 'isolator' to the supply, meaning i can't switch the power off from inside the house.

I can access the cable, is this what i should be fitting?

Power supply powers lawnmower, occasionally an inflatable hot tub.

TIA.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/13a-switched ... lsrc=aw.ds


I know very little about electricity but there are plenty here who seem to and will no doubt help. What you illustrate seems to me to be a simple fused switch. I think that is what you do not need. As has been said you need an RCD which is a type of switch which will trip if there is a problem. This can also act as a switch so that power cannot be used unless this is set. This sits inside the house . If what you say is true, the electrician must be a cowboy because I should think an RCD may even be mandatory; certainly a simple on/off switch such as you illustrate is essential to avoid anyone else helping themselves to your power, but it needs to go further than that. Can you not find him and ask him to do a proper job?

Dod

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Re: outside power supply

#495120

Postby jfgw » April 19th, 2022, 8:34 am

I would expect there to already be an rcd. This is most likely to be in the consumer unit. I would certainly hope that the electrician would not have fitted the socket without rcd protection somewhere.


Julian F. G. W.

NapoleonD
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Re: outside power supply

#495126

Postby NapoleonD » April 19th, 2022, 8:45 am

Thanks both.

The spark is a friend, and it's an outdoor rated box, though a can't see any switch on it. The tub is connected to the power supply via an outdoor cable with an rcd switch (as in, it gets used on campsites where there is a power supply, and the cable to the heating unit also has one). Lawnmower is connected via an outdoor cable reel with a thermal cut-out, though this may not be quite up to what I think it should.

But yes, i woukd prefer an rcd switch inside the house. Type A, B, C etc? What Amp ratingshould it be (40amps).

Lots of info out there, not much in the way of pointers for domestic use though?

servodude
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Re: outside power supply

#495128

Postby servodude » April 19th, 2022, 8:48 am

NapoleonD wrote:Thanks both.

The spark is a friend, and it's an outdoor rated box, though a can't see any switch on it. The tub is connected to the power supply via an outdoor cable with an rcd switch (as in, it gets used on campsites where there is a power supply, and the cable to the heating unit also has one). Lawnmower is connected via an outdoor cable reel with a thermal cut-out, though this may not be quite up to what I think it should.

But yes, i woukd prefer an rcd switch inside the house. Type A, B, C etc? What Amp ratingshould it be (40amps).

Lots of info out there, not much in the way of pointers for domestic use though?


Start by working out what you want to use it for (that will give you the power/current rating required)
Determine where it has been wired in (which ring/spur) and check that it's appropriate.
- once you know where everything is and what's needed fitting a cut-off switch inside shouldn't be too hard

-sd

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Re: outside power supply

#495129

Postby NapoleonD » April 19th, 2022, 8:50 am


BullDog
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Re: outside power supply

#495131

Postby BullDog » April 19th, 2022, 9:10 am

It's highly likely the consumer unit that feeds all the circuits has a RCD protection. Worth checking it, but I doubt an electrician would install an outside socket without any RCD protection. He's bound by IET wiring regulations on such matters.

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Re: outside power supply

#495133

Postby jfgw » April 19th, 2022, 9:12 am

If there is an rcd in the consumer unit and you are not sure if it protects the outdoor socket, try switching it off, then check the socket. You do not need two rcds on one circuit.


Julian F. G. W.

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Re: outside power supply

#495136

Postby richlist » April 19th, 2022, 9:19 am

Surely the easiest way to install an outside socket without the need for an electrician or certification is to plug the extension into an existing indoor 13 amp socket........or have the regulations changed ?

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Re: outside power supply

#495150

Postby AF62 » April 19th, 2022, 10:07 am

richlist wrote:Surely the easiest way to install an outside socket without the need for an electrician or certification is to plug the extension into an existing indoor 13 amp socket........or have the regulations changed ?


And that's why some companies have come up with items that comply with the letter, but not the spirit of the law -

https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/masterplug- ... /p/0455045

For 'temporary' use outside, because of course you are going to screw a socket to the wall for 'temporary' use - and that is before you get to the issue that the product is designed so that you can unscrew the cable and drill a hole in the wall to feed it through (as can be seen from the comments).

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: outside power supply

#495155

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » April 19th, 2022, 10:31 am

NapoleonD wrote:
Moderator Message:
Moved from DAK



Hi all, basic question.

We had an outside power supply (fitted by an electrician) last year. However, he didn't fit an 'isolator' to the supply, meaning i can't switch the power off from inside the house.

I can access the cable, is this what i should be fitting?

Power supply powers lawnmower, occasionally an inflatable hot tub.

TIA.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/13a-switched ... lsrc=aw.ds

Try this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Masterplug-wp2 ... 43310&th=1

AiY(D)

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Re: outside power supply

#495160

Postby NapoleonD » April 19th, 2022, 11:04 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
Try this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Masterplug-wp2 ... 43310&th=1

AiY(D)


Ok, it's in the casing, but no switches or buttons.

So, i need some rcd switch on the inside of the house that will let me isolate the power supply, as well as being a failsafe circuit breaker. Eg daft teenagers plugging a speaker into the wall and balancing it on the side of the tub.

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: outside power supply

#495163

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » April 19th, 2022, 11:23 am

NapoleonD wrote:
AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
Try this

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Masterplug-wp2 ... 43310&th=1

AiY(D)


Ok, it's in the casing, but no switches or buttons.

So, i need some rcd switch on the inside of the house that will let me isolate the power supply, as well as being a failsafe circuit breaker. Eg daft teenagers plugging a speaker into the wall and balancing it on the side of the tub.

Hi,

Really sorry but I am not quite getting it. Be patient with me :) If you have an external RCD power supply it will have buttons to reset. Therefore, I would suggest your external supply does not have RCD, unless you have RCD on your consumer unit (fuse board).

You're correct regarding the isolator switch. That needs to go inside. The only problem with that is "daft teenagers" could still switch the isolator back on.

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/product ... 3c1bd83116

AiY(D)

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Re: outside power supply

#495176

Postby SteelCamel » April 19th, 2022, 12:17 pm

NapoleonD wrote:So, i need some rcd switch on the inside of the house that will let me isolate the power supply, as well as being a failsafe circuit breaker. Eg daft teenagers plugging a speaker into the wall and balancing it on the side of the tub.


This conversation seems to have gone off track a bit and is confusing two different issues.

You do need an RCD. Under the current regulations, they are required for all sockets. So as you had this installed by a professional electrician, I'd expect that there is one installed. The easiest way to recognise an RCD is that they have a "test" button. They may be built into the socket, or in the consumer unit ("fuse board"). If it's in the consumer unit, it may cover the whole house, a group of circuits, or a single circuit. If you've found one but aren't sure what it covers, press the "test" button and see what turns off. The "whole house" option isn't generally recommended nowadays - while it's safe, tripping it will turn off all power to the house, including all the lights going out - but it's a big job to change so don't worry too much about it.
You shouldn't have more than one RCD for the same circuit. It doesn't add any safety, and there's no way to know which one will trip when there's a fault. It's not unsafe though, so don't worry if you do have too many. So, assuming that you do have an RCD somewhere that covers this circuit, you can ignore the RCD issue.

The isolator isn't so much a safety device - it just stops the outside socket being used when you don't want it to. It's useful to have an isolator inside - it stops anyone stealing power, and it lets you isolate the socket if it's faulty (e.g. gets water in). You want a double-pole switch - the specific one you linked to is, but a lot of fused switches are single pole. A single pole switch will let you switch the socket off to stop power theft but won't necessarily help with a wet socket. It doesn't need to be fused, though. If it's a single socket, a 20A switch like this - https://www.screwfix.com/p/p/85073 - is more than adequate. For a double socket, that's still OK by the regs, but personally I'd be inclined to go for something bigger like this - https://www.screwfix.com/p/p/451pf . If the outside socket is on a ring (i.e. there's more than one cable to the socket), you won't be able to add an isolator without making some wiring changes - probably best to get the electrician back in that case.

88V8
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Re: outside power supply

#495181

Postby 88V8 » April 19th, 2022, 12:39 pm

SteelCamel wrote:
NapoleonD wrote:So, i need some rcd switch on the inside of the house that will let me isolate the power supply, as well as being a failsafe circuit breaker. Eg daft teenagers plugging a speaker into the wall and balancing it on the side of the tub.


This conversation seems to have gone off track a bit and is confusing two different issues.
You do need an RCD.

You need something... but if possible I would use an RCBO.

RCDs are an erratic means of protecting a single circuit. If there is a fault, in my experience it is quite possible that it will jump over the relevant RCD and trip the main switch, thus turning off the whole house.
I had this with various lighting circuits when bulbs blew, including the one in the garage where a fault in the pit lighting did not trip the rcd in the garage, nor the rcd on the feed to the garage, but did trip the whole house. This is what is known as 'nuisance tripping' and I believe is not uncommon.

When an RCBO trips, it only trips that single circuit. I had the whole CU changed to RCBOs so any fault now trips only the relevant circuit. RCBOs used to be expensive, not so nowadays. Hager or Wylex are good brands.
Having said that I have never used one as a standalone, I presume it would need its own enclosure, they're not just a swap with an RCD.

V8

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Re: outside power supply

#495309

Postby csearle » April 19th, 2022, 10:05 pm

NapoleonD wrote:
Moderator Message:
Moved from DAK



Hi all, basic question.

We had an outside power supply (fitted by an electrician) last year. However, he didn't fit an 'isolator' to the supply, meaning i can't switch the power off from inside the house.

I can access the cable, is this what i should be fitting?

Power supply powers lawnmower, occasionally an inflatable hot tub.

TIA.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/13a-switched ... lsrc=aw.ds
Quite a lot has been said. I think the answer to your basic question is yes.

Any competent electrician will, as has been said, have ensured the outside socket is protected somewhere with a 30mA RCD.

Just include your fused-connection unit between the source of your power and your outside socket and you will be able to switch it off from inside. (Obviously switch the circuit off before fiddling with it.)

C.

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Re: outside power supply

#495440

Postby SteelCamel » April 20th, 2022, 5:19 pm

88V8 wrote:You need something... but if possible I would use an RCBO.

RCDs are an erratic means of protecting a single circuit. If there is a fault, in my experience it is quite possible that it will jump over the relevant RCD and trip the main switch, thus turning off the whole house.
I had this with various lighting circuits when bulbs blew, including the one in the garage where a fault in the pit lighting did not trip the rcd in the garage, nor the rcd on the feed to the garage, but did trip the whole house. This is what is known as 'nuisance tripping' and I believe is not uncommon.

When an RCBO trips, it only trips that single circuit. I had the whole CU changed to RCBOs so any fault now trips only the relevant circuit. RCBOs used to be expensive, not so nowadays. Hager or Wylex are good brands.
Having said that I have never used one as a standalone, I presume it would need its own enclosure, they're not just a swap with an RCD.

An RBCO is simply an RCD in the same package as an MCB. I maybe should have mentioned them, but they count as an RCD for the rest of my comments.

An RCD is not an erratic means of protecting a single circuit - if installed correctly. As I mentioned, putting multiple RCDs in series doesn't mean the one nearest the load will trip. In your example, you have three RCDs in series. If there's a fault, any of them may trip - possibly more than one of them. If you have an RCD in the garage, you should make sure it's fed from a non-RCD supply in the house (and also consider other rules about cable protection).
I also mentioned the downsides of having an RCD for the whole house - if your main switch is an RCD, when it trips it takes out everything. There's no way round that other than removing the whole house RCD and putting multiple RCDs on separate groups of circuits - and yes, the ultimate is to put an RCD/RCBO on each circuit, making a "group" of one circuit. But you must remove the upstream RCD, or it won't help.

None of which is really relevant to the original question - assuming the electrician was competent, there will be an RCD (or RCBO) somewhere.

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Re: outside power supply

#505146

Postby jaizan » June 5th, 2022, 10:55 pm

We can't answer the original question until we know what is meant by an outside "power supply".

If that is a single 13A socket, the a fused 13 A switch shown should be fine for INDOOR installation, assuming the system already has an RCD.

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Re: outside power supply

#505197

Postby csearle » June 6th, 2022, 8:23 am

SteelCamel wrote:An RBCO is simply an RCD in the same package as an MCB.
Not quite as simple. What is typically referred to as an RCD¹ has no overload protection. An RCBO does.

Chris
¹ More accurately an RCD is a general term for any device with residual current protection, e.g. RCCBs, RCBOs, etc. (see BS7671), but colloquially it tends to get used just for RCCBs


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