Air-air heat pump/air con for single room.

[scotview]

Short answer - "no" - not AHSP supplying rads or underfloor. We'd still need to install extra rads and we replaced the gas boiler 18 months ago anyway.

'major transformation' probably describes it, but no surprise the cost is not cheap. And that's the problem with a lot of UK housing stock - I know ours is a little to the extreme end of things but insulating a lot of the older properties you see in the villages and towns takes a lot of space or costs the same as several decades of energy bills.

Paul

Thanks for taking the time to post that interesting reply. It's good to get heating solution decisions based on real life situations, thanks.

[funduffer]

Similar to DrFfybes, we fitted an air-con unit in our living room about a year ago to complement our gas central heating. Also, my wife insisted we have some air-con for the summer after experiencing 40C+ temperatures in 2022, so for her, this is the main reason for purchasing it!

A year's experience shows we run the unit a lot more in heating mode than cooling mode. This may be explained mainly by the cooler 2023 summer, as we used the air con in cooling mode on only a few days.

As for heating, we run the unit in the winter to heat the living room during the day rather than over-ride the gas central heating, which normally goes off at 9:30am and comes on again at 5pm. The result has been an 11% reduction (2023 v 2022) in gas usage - about 1100 kWh.

The air-con unit has consumed 111kWh heating the living room, i.e. about 10% of the gas saved. As to cost, our day-time electricity rate is 29p per kWh for electricity and 7.5p per kWh for gas - a factor of 4 difference.

We have saved £82.50 in gas costs, at the cost of £32.19 in electricity........except we have solar, and the air-con unit runs mostly in day-light hours when the cost per unit is much lower. I receive 12p per kWh for exporting my solar power, so I estimate the true cost of running the air-con unit, in the way I do, as about 18p per kWh, which translates to £20 to run the air-con unit.

So overall I think I have saved just over £60 in 2023 in heating costs.

I think units like this, and larger heat pumps, can make small savings, but will only become more popular when the price of electricity compared to gas reduces. it is x4 in the UK, but much lower in many other countries. It will be interesting to see how this ratio changes as we build more renewables.

FD

[Dicky99]

Similar to DrFfybes, we fitted an air-con unit in our living room about a year ago to complement our gas central heating. Also, my wife insisted we have some air-con for the summer after experiencing 40C+ temperatures in 2022, so for her, this is the main reason for purchasing it!

A year's experience shows we run the unit a lot more in heating mode than cooling mode. This may be explained mainly by the cooler 2023 summer, as we used the air con in cooling mode on only a few days.

As for heating, we run the unit in the winter to heat the living room during the day rather than over-ride the gas central heating, which normally goes off at 9:30am and comes on again at 5pm. The result has been an 11% reduction (2023 v 2022) in gas usage - about 1100 kWh.

The air-con unit has consumed 111kWh heating the living room, i.e. about 10% of the gas saved. As to cost, our day-time electricity rate is 29p per kWh for electricity and 7.5p per kWh for gas - a factor of 4 difference.

We have saved £82.50 in gas costs, at the cost of £32.19 in electricity........except we have solar, and the air-con unit runs mostly in day-light hours when the cost per unit is much lower. I receive 12p per kWh for exporting my solar power, so I estimate the true cost of running the air-con unit, in the way I do, as about 18p per kWh, which translates to £20 to run the air-con unit.

So overall I think I have saved just over £60 in 2023 in heating costs.

I think units like this, and larger heat pumps, can make small savings, but will only become more popular when the price of electricity compared to gas reduces. it is x4 in the UK, but much lower in many other countries. It will be interesting to see how this ratio changes as we build more renewables.

FD

Out of interest what is the payback period on the total capital outlay including any routine service costs and the anticipated lifespan of all the kit. Will it ever wipe it's face or does one get the satisfaction from intangibles?

[DrFfybes]

Out of interest what is the payback period on the total capital outlay including any routine service costs and the anticipated lifespan of all the kit. Will it ever wipe it's face or does one get the satisfaction from intangibles?

Like most domestic purchases, the financial payback is years, if ever. I reckon we save just under a fiver per day compared to the gas boiler, and that's living in half the house. When the works are finishedthen having rapid localised heating makes financial sense but also improves comfort and convenience.

Will I ever get the £5k or so back for the new boiler and bits? eventually.
Will we ever get the 6 figures it is costing to insulate the roof? No
Will we get back the cost of soar and battery? Eventually.
Will I ever get back the cost of the electric garage door, replacing the fluorescent with LED, or building the shed? No.
Will the dishwasher ever pay back the cost it saces in Hot Water? No.

However, was it worth spending a third of the price of replacing the woodburner with something that starts to heat the room in a couple of minutes, just needs the click of a button, and doesn't involve ar5ing about with fireighters and matches and paper, ordering or splitting and storing wood, then for us at least the answer is "Heck yes".

I did enjoy playing with the wood burner, but then again also enjoy driving our classic car. But I'd hate to have to rely on it

Paul

[servodude]

Out of interest what is the payback period on the total capital outlay including any routine service costs and the anticipated lifespan of all the kit. Will it ever wipe it's face or does one get the satisfaction from intangibles?

Like most domestic purchases, the financial payback is years, if ever. I reckon we save just under a fiver per day compared to the gas boiler, and that's living in half the house. When the works are finishedthen having rapid localised heating makes financial sense but also improves comfort and convenience.

Will I ever get the £5k or so back for the new boiler and bits? eventually.
Will we ever get the 6 figures it is costing to insulate the roof? No
Will we get back the cost of soar and battery? Eventually.
Will I ever get back the cost of the electric garage door, replacing the fluorescent with LED, or building the shed? No.
Will the dishwasher ever pay back the cost it saces in Hot Water? No.

However, was it worth spending a third of the price of replacing the woodburner with something that starts to heat the room in a couple of minutes, just needs the click of a button, and doesn't involve ar5ing about with fireighters and matches and paper, ordering or splitting and storing wood, then for us at least the answer is "Heck yes".

I did enjoy playing with the wood burner, but then again also enjoy driving our classic car. But I'd hate to have to rely on it

Paul

I wonder if the increase in air quality is considered an intangible? I regularly use our air-air just to "change the air" - reducing humidity when needed but also clearing out stuff that can upset the sinuses

[Dicky99]

Out of interest what is the payback period on the total capital outlay including any routine service costs and the anticipated lifespan of all the kit. Will it ever wipe it's face or does one get the satisfaction from intangibles?

Like most domestic purchases, the financial payback is years, if ever. I reckon we save just under a fiver per day compared to the gas boiler, and that's living in half the house. When the works are finishedthen having rapid localised heating makes financial sense but also improves comfort and convenience.

Will I ever get the £5k or so back for the new boiler and bits? eventually.
Will we ever get the 6 figures it is costing to insulate the roof? No
Will we get back the cost of soar and battery? Eventually.
Will I ever get back the cost of the electric garage door, replacing the fluorescent with LED, or building the shed? No.
Will the dishwasher ever pay back the cost it saces in Hot Water? No.

However, was it worth spending a third of the price of replacing the woodburner with something that starts to heat the room in a couple of minutes, just needs the click of a button, and doesn't involve ar5ing about with fireighters and matches and paper, ordering or splitting and storing wood, then for us at least the answer is "Heck yes".

I did enjoy playing with the wood burner, but then again also enjoy driving our classic car. But I'd hate to have to rely on it

Paul

It's true that we don't apply payback period to every purchase we make, but if adding a new form of heating to reduce the use of the existing one its a valid consideration.

[funduffer]

Out of interest what is the payback period on the total capital outlay including any routine service costs and the anticipated lifespan of all the kit. Will it ever wipe it's face or does one get the satisfaction from intangibles?

As DrFfybes says, it is not always about payback.

With an installation cost of £1200, and a £60 per year saving, that is a 20 year payback. Not as good as my solar panels which are on track for an 8 year payback, but more or less in the life of the device. I have not had any maintenance yet, so not sure what the cost will be,

I think the intangibles are important and echo what has been said. In addition, when it is really hot in the summer, and we switch the cooling on, my wife will be happy which is invaluable!

FD

[GrahamPlatt]

viewtopic.php?f=99&t=31731&p=653495#p653495

Single-room heat pumps being installed in NY apartments.

[UncleEbenezer]

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=31731&p=653495#p653495

Single-room heat pumps being installed in NY apartments.

Where you have long, hot summers and cold winters, a heat-exchanger to deal with both seems a no-brainer.

[GrahamPlatt]

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=31731&p=653495#p653495

Single-room heat pumps being installed in NY apartments.

Where you have long, hot summers and cold winters, a heat-exchanger to deal with both seems a no-brainer.

It’s more the form factor that interested me. Seems quite neat.

[funduffer]

I have one of these in my living room.

https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/resident ... emura.html

Looks great, not too intrusive and very efficient.

Useful during the great Yorkshire heatwaves!

(Actually I use it more for heating in autumn and spring as it is much cheaper to run than the gas)

FD

[richfool]

I have one of these in my living room.

https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/resident ... emura.html

Looks great, not too intrusive and very efficient.

Useful during the great Yorkshire heatwaves!

(Actually I use it more for heating in autumn and spring as it is much cheaper to run than the gas)

FD

Thank you for the link Funduffer. (I was a great 'fan' of Daikin AC units when living in the Far East).

Re your last sentence (re it being cheaper to run for heating than gas, is that because you have cheaper sources of electricity like solar, as opposed to the normal prices paid by the average consumer via the grid for gas and electricity?

[DrFfybes]

I have one of these in my living room.

https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/resident ... emura.html

Looks great, not too intrusive and very efficient.

Useful during the great Yorkshire heatwaves!

(Actually I use it more for heating in autumn and spring as it is much cheaper to run than the gas)

FD

Thank you for the link Funduffer. (I was a great 'fan' of Daikin AC units when living in the Far East).

Re your last sentence (re it being cheaper to run for heating than gas, is that because you have cheaper sources of electricity like solar, as opposed to the normal prices paid by the average consumer via the grid for gas and electricity?

We have a Mitsubishi Heavy Indusries one very similar to FD's. Rated at 3.5kW and requiring a 16A dedicated supply.

In actual use it seems to tick over at 300W at current temperature to 500W in colder weather as measured by the Smart Meter on the occasions I've left it on overnight, ie about 10-15p/hour on standard elecrtric prices. This is to keep a 4x5m room at 20C. Running the gas means much more of the house is heated even faffing with turning rads down and back up again in the bathroom and bedrooms/kitchen, and costs more - and looking at last week a 3 hour boost averaged 7-8kW/h so about 50p/hour.

The current one replaced a woodburner, and we will be getting a second unit for the new 6x6m lounge and the bedroom above, rather than following the current trend for woodburners, despite us having a free source of fuel for one.

Paul

Paul

[DrFfybes]

I have one of these in my living room.

https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/resident ... emura.html

Looks great, not too intrusive and very efficient.

Useful during the great Yorkshire heatwaves!

(Actually I use it more for heating in autumn and spring as it is much cheaper to run than the gas)

FD

Thank you for the link Funduffer. (I was a great 'fan' of Daikin AC units when living in the Far East).

Re your last sentence (re it being cheaper to run for heating than gas, is that because you have cheaper sources of electricity like solar, as opposed to the normal prices paid by the average consumer via the grid for gas and electricity?

We have a Mitsubishi Heavy Indusries one very similar to FD's. Rated at 3.5kW and requiring a 16A dedicated supply.

In actual use it seems to tick over at 300W at current temperature to 500W in colder weather as measured by the Smart Meter on the occasions I've left it on overnight, ie about 10-15p/hour on standard elecrtric prices. This is to keep a 4x5m room at 20C. Running the gas means much more of the house is heated even faffing with turning rads down and back up again in the bathroom and bedrooms/kitchen, and costs more - and looking at last week a 3 hour boost averaged 7-8kW/h so about 50p/hour.

The current one replaced a woodburner, and we will be getting a second unit for the new 6x6m lounge and the bedroom above, rather than following the current trend for woodburners, despite us having a free source of fuel for one.

Paul

Paul

[Howard]

We installed a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries aircon in 2019 see posthttps://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtop ... 49#p222449. It was a split system connected to two rooms.

It has been brilliant. Low cost to both heat a room in winter and cool it in summer. Saves using the gas central heating in spring and autumn as others have noted. I did choose to have it serviced recently for a little over £100 although I'm not sure it was necessary.

The unit is amazingly quiet indoors and outdoors (much quieter than the exhaust from our modulating gas boiler working fairly hard).

We didn't need a separate 16 amp power supply. It works fine from a 13 amp plug as the installer recommended.

regards

Howard

[DrFfybes]

The unit is amazingly quiet indoors and outdoors (much quieter than the exhaust from our modulating gas boiler working fairly hard).

We didn't need a separate 16 amp power supply. It works fine from a 13 amp plug as the installer recommended.

Good point re the noise - probably a better and more valid comparisson.

The power supply regs may have changed (Chris?). My installer said he could drill in and wire into a socket, but the other quote specified a seperate supply. As the external unit was next to the garage door and the garage has it's own consumer unit it was simpler to run in on a spare extra output.

Here's our outside unit




Paul

Moderator Message:
Going forward please adhere to this site's posting rules regarding embedded images. Thank you. - Chris

[funduffer]

I have one of these in my living room.

https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/resident ... emura.html

Looks great, not too intrusive and very efficient.

Useful during the great Yorkshire heatwaves!

(Actually I use it more for heating in autumn and spring as it is much cheaper to run than the gas)

FD

Thank you for the link Funduffer. (I was a great 'fan' of Daikin AC units when living in the Far East).

Re your last sentence (re it being cheaper to run for heating than gas, is that because you have cheaper sources of electricity like solar, as opposed to the normal prices paid by the average consumer via the grid for gas and electricity?

Well yes, I do have solar, but even without that, it is cheaper to run the unit at 300W to 400W and heat one room, than switch on the gas central heating and heat the whole house. I live in a bungalow, and if I open the doors to the dining room, bathroom and main bedroom and close all the others the unit will maintain a reasonable temperature in all 4 rooms. When it is sunny, it can be run entirely from solar energy, but of course I then forego the export payment I would have received (12p per kWh), so it still does cost me something. But this is better than the 28p per kWh peak rate electricity cost.

FD

[Tedx]

The unit is amazingly quiet indoors and outdoors (much quieter than the exhaust from our modulating gas boiler working fairly hard).

We didn't need a separate 16 amp power supply. It works fine from a 13 amp plug as the installer recommended.

Good point re the noise - probably a better and more valid comparisson.

The power supply regs may have changed (Chris?). My installer said he could drill in and wire into a socket, but the other quote specified a seperate supply. As the external unit was next to the garage door and the garage has it's own consumer unit it was simpler to run in on a spare extra output.

Here's our outside unit




Paul

Moderator Message:
Going forward please adhere to this site's posting rules regarding embedded images. Thank you. - Chris

All embedded images (including data and graphs) in posts must:-
Include an additional link (URL) to a web page where the original may be viewed in context, or (where the image is hosted on either a domain owned or controlled by the poster, or a hosting site account e.g. Imgur, Picasa, Dropbox, OneDrive, Google Drive) be followed by a statement that the poster owns (or is legally permitted to post) the content of the image. If this is later found to be incorrect, appropriate action will be taken by administrators. Images which do not comply with these requirements may be removed without warning.

Aren't these Paul's own images?

[DrFfybes]

All embedded images (including data and graphs) in posts must:-
Include an additional link (URL) to a web page where the original may be viewed in context, or (where the image is hosted on either a domain owned or controlled by the poster, or a hosting site account e.g. Imgur, Picasa, Dropbox, OneDrive, Google Drive) be followed by a statement that the poster owns (or is legally permitted to post) the content of the image. If this is later found to be incorrect, appropriate action will be taken by administrators. Images which do not comply with these requirements may be removed without warning.

Aren't these Paul's own images?

Yes, but I didn't state explicitly that they were mine. Whilst it was probably obvious in this case that a Getty photographer hadn't been sneaking around my garden taking candid photos of my plumbing and I'd used them without permission/accreditation, there will doubtless be more borderline cases, so I suspect it is easier to enforce the rules fully in all occasions.

Paul

[Tedx]

All embedded images (including data and graphs) in posts must:-
Include an additional link (URL) to a web page where the original may be viewed in context, or (where the image is hosted on either a domain owned or controlled by the poster, or a hosting site account e.g. Imgur, Picasa, Dropbox, OneDrive, Google Drive) be followed by a statement that the poster owns (or is legally permitted to post) the content of the image. If this is later found to be incorrect, appropriate action will be taken by administrators. Images which do not comply with these requirements may be removed without warning.

Aren't these Paul's own images?

Yes, but I didn't state explicitly that they were mine. Whilst it was probably obvious in this case that a Getty photographer hadn't been sneaking around my garden taking candid photos of my plumbing and I'd used them without permission/accreditation, there will doubtless be more borderline cases, so I suspect it is easier to enforce the rules fully in all occasions.

Paul

'Here's our outside unit'?

Ok, I see that you could be saying 'here's our outside unit' - as an example. I just took it to mean it was a photo of your acyual unit at your house.

I'm too trusting