Programmable TRVs (again)

[bungeejumper]

I've just been looking back at the really useful discussion of smart TRVs at viewtopic.php?f=40&t=33587, and I'm interested in following up a couple of avenues for non-wifi set-ups. I'm aware that some models have come or gone in the last 12 months, so any and all ideas are welcome.

Basically, all I need are three or four TRV tops that have an inbuilt timer function, so that I can set them to come on every evening (or every morning, as the case may be). With perhaps an override button for other occasions.

And that would suit me fine. No wifi needed, because I just don't feel the need to control everything from my phone or by delegating the task to Alexa, whoever she might be. ) And anyway, we have thick stone walls where the wifi doesn't always go.

And besides, I'm a cheapskate.

Last year, AF62 mentioned the Eqiva EQ-3, which seems to be still around. Anywhere from fifteen quid for a basic TRV (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eqiva-141227D0 ... B07N3DWW5T), up to £50 plus for the full works. I might be persuaded to pay a bit more for a bluetooth TRV if it meant I could have a handheld controller in the room, rather than having to get down on my knees and grobulate around at skirting board level.

Thoughts? Recommendations?

BJ

[DrFfybes]

No recommendations, but I am looking at doing something similar in a couple of rooms so f you do find anything that works let me know. Especially if it comes with 10mm pipe connection. We manually adjust ours these days depending upon which rooms we're using.

Sadly they all seem to be going down the 'Smart' route now.

Paul

[Urbandreamer]

Not sure quite what you mean by "WiFi".

All the ones that I have seen are radio controlled. Be it Zigbee is Z-Wave.
They use a hub (master) so that more than one can be programed.

That hub can usually communicate with the internet and hence a mobile phone.

An alternative is to use a master plugged into a computer and run something like "Home assistant" to control them from that computer.

https://www.home-assistant.io/

That's very much a DIY method though.

[bungeejumper]

Thanks very much, both. I'm still getting my head around this, and as far as I can see there are four basic types:

Non-smart: The basic EQ-3 models (£20 upwards), which have to be manually adjusted. Which is not ideal when that involves bending down to the floor every time you make a change. As AF62 notes, these are like hens' teeth. Partly because they've been withdrawn, although they still seem to be available in their home market (Germany). Drat.

Bluetooth: EQ-3 (nowadays trading in the UK under the Tower brand), or Danfoss Eco. Both around £50. These don't seem to need expensive separate hubs - you can run them straight off your mobile phone using a free app. But some types don't appear to like Android, or so the complainers say. (I couldn't possibly comment.) It sounds as though a software update to the EQ-3 system last autumn left some TRVs unable to communicate, which must have been a bit of a bummer. Double drat.

Wifi: Drayton, Hive, Honeywell, Salus, Tado. (A full list is at https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/smart-r ... difference ). Some of these can communicate with an intelligent thermostat, and some can't. Apparently......

Zigbee etc: Still a mystery to this non-techie! But definitely cheap(er). (The Zigbee hub is only about £25.) But Zigbee and Z-Wave seem to be competitors, not complementaries. Hmmmm, I can't find any references to radio control. Back to the drawing board.

I spent all day yesterday reading and pricing up, and my head hurts. And I've decided to put the decision off till September. The boiler will be going off in six weeks' time anyway.

BJ

[DrFfybes]

Not sure quite what you mean by "WiFi".

All the ones that I have seen are radio controlled. Be it Zigbee is Z-Wave.
They use a hub (master) so that more than one can be programed.

The blurb is misleading, Zigbee says "A Wifi connection is required" so presumably this is so you can connect to the hub from an external device?
However the Drayton needs Wifi to set up, but the communication between the hub and the TRV is over their own radio frequency.

The problem is if you have wifi blackspots in the house, they are also likely to cause problems with RF control as well (out DECT phone won't work in the corner of MrsF's office, but does connect better than the wifi.

The advantage of the properly smart ones is that they override the room stat on a traditional heating system, so thay can turn the boiler on irrespective of the timer and stat inputs if one of the rooms requires heat.

As we have a traditional timer and hall stat, what we (and probably BJ) probably need is a standalone programmable TRV that can be set to switch the rad on MrsF's office on the days she is working, and ones in the bedrooms that come on from 7:30 - 8:30 Mon - fri and 8-9 at weekends, and again for 40 min at night. And if the heating isn't on at those times, then who cares, it's warm enough not to need it

Paul

[Urbandreamer]

The problem is if you have wifi blackspots in the house, they are also likely to cause problems with RF control as well (out DECT phone won't work in the corner of MrsF's office, but does connect better than the wifi.

Zigbee is a mesh network with each device trying to communicate with other devices in range, so black spots are less likely. You can also buy Zigbee repeaters. Hence my point that it's NOT WiFi.

As you said though, you may need WiFi at the hub or master.

[Urbandreamer]

Oh, I forgot to point out that the Drayton Wiser system uses Zigbee to communicate with its valves.

NOTE its valves. You can have one Zigbee master, and it needs to know how to talk to any Zigbee slaves nodes.
Hence the Drayton system won't work with other TVR's and the Tado system won't work with Drayton valves. Though a DIY route could use a mix also controlling curtains, lighting etc.

I've only started looking into it and bought the following.

A Zigbee dongle.
A Tado valve.
A temperature and humidity sensor.
A smart switch.

I got as far as using Home assistant to talk to the valve. It didn't find the temperature sensor and I haven't tried the Switch.

It was intended as more of a "fun" project, but it's stopped.

When the weather gets warmer I'll be changing leaking valves and may investigate a Tado system, but probably go the Drayton route. It seems to be a good system if you just want central heating control. Not cheap of course.

[Gerry557]

It sounds like you need a (manual) programmable trv.

Then you will need your current normal controller to turn the heating on for your timings then use the TRVs to turn off the rad in the rooms you don't want heating. Remember there is normally x1 rad that's always on, probably the hall.

[scotview]

Thanks very much, both. I'm still getting my head around this, and as far as I can see there are four basic types:

I spent all day yesterday reading and pricing up, and my head hurts. And I've decided to put the decision off till September. The boiler will be going off in six weeks' time anyway.

BJ

One thing to bear in mind. If you are going to install TRVs that fire up your boiler, then those radiators without controllable TRVs installed will heat up when the boiler fires up, unless you adjust these manually.

[bungeejumper]

Thanks again, all. When I started this thread yesterday, I wondered whether it was just me that couldn't make head nor tail of the multifarious options and characteristics that seem to bedevil this subject?

I am now feeling somewhat reassured. Urbandreamer has probably got a better grasp of this subject than most of us, but if it's really true that "the [wifi] Drayton system won't work with other [wifi] TVR's and the [wifi] Tado system won't work with [wifi] Drayton valves", then it's goodbye to the good old mix 'n match philosophy that has traditionally underpinned so much of the plumbing installation business.

And hello to an awful lot of moderately expensive buy-it-and-see. I'm beginning to understand why Ebay is so full of ads for TRV stuff that's been [quote] "unboxed but never used."

It's a can of worms. You either buy the whole in-house suite from one manufacturer, or you commit yourself to a load of trial and error, tears and sweat. I think I might start saving up for a Tado in the autumn.

BJ

[Urbandreamer]

Thanks again, all. When I started this thread yesterday, I wondered whether it was just me that couldn't make head nor tail of the multifarious options and characteristics that seem to bedevil this subject?

I am now feeling somewhat reassured. Urbandreamer has probably got a better grasp of this subject than most of us, but if it's really true that "the [wifi] Drayton system won't work with other [wifi] TVR's and the [wifi] Tado system won't work with [wifi] Drayton valves", then it's goodbye to the good old mix 'n match philosophy that has traditionally underpinned so much of the plumbing installation business.

And hello to an awful lot of moderately expensive buy-it-and-see. I'm beginning to understand why Ebay is so full of ads for TRV stuff that's been

"unboxed but never used."

It's a can of worms. You either buy the whole in-house suite from one manufacturer, or you commit yourself to a load of trial and error, tears and sweat. I think I might start saving up for a Tado in the autumn.

BJ

Thanks for the vote of confidence. It is a bit of a can of worms, but your idea of the universality of plumbing is untrue.
The valve head that I bought came with a choice of adapters to fit different manufacturers TVRs.

There is some work on trying to get manufacturers to adopt a common standard.
https://www.pocket-lint.com/smart-home/ ... -standard/

Sadly we are not there yet.

As you say, ebay is full of kit that people have decided isn't want they want. I've even seen a full Wiser system with 12 valves for sale second hand. Clearly someone replaced it with something like Nest or Hive.

I DO like the Wiser system, but it's not going to control Air conditioning, ceiling fans or curtain pullers. That's not what Drayton do.

[9873210]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. It is a bit of a can of worms, but your idea of the universality of plumbing is untrue.
The valve head that I bought came with a choice of adapters to fit different manufacturers TVRs.

There is some work on trying to get manufacturers to adopt a common standard.
https://www.pocket-lint.com/smart-home/ ... -standard/

One of the issues is how long things will be supported. A common standard will probably be supported for longer, but will inevitably orphan at least some current systems. And it's not only spare parts that may cause problems. These things are usually programmed (set up) using a smartphone app or web browser, and these have a much shorter life than heating systems. I expect at least some of these systems will be hard to support (i.e. you will have to seek out an old web browser or phone or some such, rather than plug-n-play with modern software/hardware) in as little as a few years.

So one thing you should decide on is how long you want them to last. This should almost certainly influence which is chosen, but I can't say how because I have not done the research. I would not rely on any system installed today being fully functional in a decade.

[AF62]

Last year, AF62 mentioned the Eqiva EQ-3

Just as an update, the ones I fitted were the Bluetooth versions, although to be honest other than setting them up I have hardly bothered to use the Bluetooth function.

They are set to heat the rooms to the temperature I want at the times I want, and at other times it falls back to a lower minimum temperature. And well, that's it because that works. They are not totally silent, but some imagination with the timing settings overcomes that (e.g. increase the temperature after the heating has shut down for the night so they theoretically are at a higher temperature overnight but they aren't because there is no heat, but in the morning they don't need to open and when the boiler fires up they are ready for it).

If they were fitted in rooms that I may or may not be occupying so did need to frequently turn them up or down then I might have chosen something different, but they aren't, so I didn't.

As for the increase in prices - doesn't surprise me as anything to do with energy saving has massively increased in prices as suppliers make money from people's misery.

[Urbandreamer]

These things are usually programmed (set up) using a smartphone app or web browser, and these have a much shorter life than heating systems. I expect at least some of these systems will be hard to support (i.e. you will have to seek out an old web browser or phone or some such, rather than plug-n-play with modern software/hardware) in as little as a few years.

I note that you say "some", and I would agree with that. However, while I don't work in the central heating industry, I am a software engineer and have experience of maintaining some very old systems.
I'd also question how long it is before central heating system parts wear out.

Speaking from experience, we totally replaced our central heating system some 20 years ago.
We are on our second boiler.
Our TVR's are leaking (see earlier post).
Our wireless thermostat gave up the ghost.

With respect to Web browsers, HTML 4 was released in 1999 and any website designed to work with it can be accessed by any modern browser. It will just look old.
I too would be dubious about phone apps, however reputable manufacturers will not depend upon them. Instead the App will simply wrap a simple API.

Hence replacements should be possible.
Indeed there is a thriving Homebrew industry out there interfacing to such API's.

As I said, I like the Drayton system, but it has it's limitations. I wonder if anyone has produced software to mess with it.
https://github.com/asantaga/wiserHomeAssistantPlatform

So, while you can't extend the features of that system, you can produce your own flashy user interface.

I would be dubious about central heating systems controlled by a internet server. I.E. the original Tado system. Hence why I was looking at providing my own local system.

The downside of course with doing so is that nobody in my family could maintain it and the system would have to be replaced at a later date.

In simple terms, If you go for a reputable manufacturer who has been around for many decades, you are unlikely to have the problems that you fear. If you chose bleeding edge, then expect that it may go the way of Betamax or Laserdisk.

[Gerry557]

Thanks again, all. When I started this thread yesterday, I wondered whether it was just me that couldn't make head nor tail of the multifarious options and characteristics that seem to bedevil this subject?

I am now feeling somewhat reassured. Urbandreamer has probably got a better grasp of this subject than most of us, but if it's really true that "the [wifi] Drayton system won't work with other [wifi] TVR's and the [wifi] Tado system won't work with [wifi] Drayton valves", then it's goodbye to the good old mix 'n match philosophy that has traditionally underpinned so much of the plumbing installation business.

And hello to an awful lot of moderately expensive buy-it-and-see. I'm beginning to understand why Ebay is so full of ads for TRV stuff that's been

"unboxed but never used."

It's a can of worms. You either buy the whole in-house suite from one manufacturer, or you commit yourself to a load of trial and error, tears and sweat. I think I might start saving up for a Tado in the autumn.

BJ

I forgot to mention if getting manually adjusted trv's, then you probably have to get down to them to make the adjustments. If Bluetooth then you need a device such as a phone or laptop.

If you do go down the tado route buy in summer as prices will likely rise with demand in autumn. I'd suggest keeping a tab on the Hotdeals website and add tado as one of your products.

I have the tado system and after some set up teething issues, it seems to work well. There are still occasions where you need to get down to them, flat batteries or resets etc if this is a big issue for you. Others say noise is an issue, there is a small motor noise. Look on YouTube if that might be a concern. Cost is another negative.

I'm not trying to put you off tado just a balanced view. There are lots of advantages too. Greater control and flexibility for me rather than any cost savings. Our usage varies a lot depending who visits. Instant changes are at the flick of a phone. Wanna work in the office for an hour, kids want to play in the bedroom, wanna watch a movie on the big screen or pop out to the shops. Rooms are adjustable as your life off or on. I'm sure it saves a bit of energy too only heating what you use.

This can be controlled by a website if you don't have a phone but I'd suggest having one or a tablet for ease of use.

[Urbandreamer]

This can be controlled by a website if you don't have a phone but I'd suggest having one or a tablet for ease of use.

You can also use the likes of Alexa.
https://support.tado.com/en/articles/33 ... azon-alexa

The valve that I bought to play with was a Tuya compatible one. I just didn't buy the hub to communicate with their infrastructure.
TBH they strike me as a great way to start playing with the idea.

It's just that, as said, they don't control the boiler wirelessly, and I don't have thermostat wiring to use a Zigbee compatible thermostat.

Finally, programmed changes (time of day, day of week) for the TVR's are reliant upon both an internet connection and the Tado or Tuya server with these simple systems.

This is where a dedicated controller wins out, and for that you must pay.

Ps, for the Ludites. These modern systems can reduce energy costs significantly, at the expense of changing the batteries regularly (1-2 years).
Claims are savings of 12% for simple TVR's and 30% for the smart ones.

[DrFfybes]

Ps, for the Ludites. These modern systems can reduce energy costs significantly, at the expense of changing the batteries regularly (1-2 years).
Claims are savings of 12% for simple TVR's and 30% for the smart ones.

Claims are one thing, actuals are another

Besides, I just worked out going back upstairs to turn the bedroom TRVs down when I forgot earlier gained me 52 steps, plus up and down a flight of stairs. That's covered the choccy digestive I've just dunked in my tea [1].

Paul

[1] Claim based on a mathematical modelling of calories used compared to spending the equivalent amount of time tutting at mailonline, rounded up to the nearest whole biscuit. Other biscuit types or biscuits of a similar type from a different manufacturer may contain different amounts of calories.

[Gerry557]

I'm sure Alexa would provide some control but she has been removed in my house to the naughty step. I assumed, maybe wrongly, no smartphone probably meant no Alexa.

[csearle]

I'm sure Alexa would provide some control but she has been removed in my house to the naughty step.

Blimey, what did she do? My girl stoically refuses to do or say anything naughty.

[AF62]

If you do go down the tado route buy in summer as prices will likely rise with demand in autumn. I'd suggest keeping a tab on the Hotdeals website and add tado as one of your products.

If you are an Octopus Energy customer (or know one) Tado currently have 35% off.

https://www.tado.com/gb-en/tado-in-part ... th-octopus