The Lemon Fool

Hi Folks,
Main fuse is 50amp. We have two electric showers which should be used at the same time because of that 50amp main fuse. Second downstairs shower was put in to facilitate our oncoming old age so only one shower used at a time. House is going up for sale. Should I do something about the main fuse or just point it out on the basis that a buyer may well do major alterations anyway. Is it involved getting that main fuse upgraded?
Ray.

Firstly, are you sure it is 50A and not the more usual 60A or more?

I'd leave well alone and let the buyer worry about it. I don't think you're the only person who has fitted 2 electric showers in the same property, and I'll bet none of them upgraded the supply or fuse if it was only rated at 60A (enough for 2 x 7.2kW showers).

You may find that upgrading the main fuse requires upgrading the supply if it really is 50A, and that is a rabbit hole you don't want to send a ferret down.

Paul

I would leave it too and let the buyer decide.

They may want to make extensive modifications and want to install a new consumer unit anyway.

If not they might have a survey done and then it's down to them what they want to do about anything highlighted.

raybarrow wrote:Hi Folks,
Main fuse is 50amp. We have two electric showers which should be used at the same time because of that 50amp main fuse. Second downstairs shower was put in to facilitate our oncoming old age so only one shower used at a time. House is going up for sale. Should I do something about the main fuse or just point it out on the basis that a buyer may well do major alterations anyway. Is it involved getting that main fuse upgraded?
Ray.

Get an EICR done, the buyers will probably want to see a recent one anyway.
If the EICR says has a C1 (immediate danger) or C2 (potential danger) code regarding the fuse, get it sorted.
If it has a C3(improvement recommended), and no work is required to upgrade, then consider getting it done.

If there's no code (and the rest of the EICR is clear) pass the report onto your solicitor so they can pass it on to the purchaser as soon as they ask for it.

Note that the fuse upgrade could be as easy as the DNO pulling the fuse, replacing it and plugging it back in.
The next level is where you need to replace the meter tails (If they are 25mm2 this shouldn't be an issue)
The next level up from that is where the incoming service can't supply the requested demand.
This all assumes that the service head can take a 80A or 100A fuse.

IANAE (I Am Not An Electrician) disclaimer applies...

The 50 amp fuse could limit the buyers fitting an EV charger, other than fitting something like a Zappi charger with a CT which monitors the inlet current on the incomer.

scotview wrote:The 50 amp fuse could limit the buyers fitting an EV charger, other than fitting something like a Zappi charger with a CT which monitors the inlet current on the incomer.

That's not a problem for the vendor though. A house with a 100A main fuse won't fetch more money than one with a 50A fuse.

I had my main fuse upgraded from 60 amp to 100 amp as part of having an EV charger. There were 3 UK Power Network lorries here for a couple of hours!!! It was organised by my electricians.

Anyway as I recall it didn't cost anything. I think the reason is that UK Power are funded by part of what you pay for your electricity and this upgrade seemed to be covered by that. It would not cover going from single to three phase.

I would leave it alone and if the next owner wants it, they can arrange it.

I too would leave it. In fact I wouldn't do anything at all unless the buyers were to start using the electrical installation as a bargaining chip. You could go to a lot of effort and find it simply wasn't an issue for them. Life is too short. If they do use the electrical installation you could still just leave it and negotiate on that basis, or you could have the previously suggested EICR done by an electrician to see if anything is flagged as C1 or C2, and even then you could still simply bargain with that added knowledge or actually have some remedial work done. C.

raybarrow wrote:Hi Folks,
Main fuse is 50amp. We have two electric showers which should be used at the same time because of that 50amp main fuse. Second downstairs shower was put in to facilitate our oncoming old age so only one shower used at a time. House is going up for sale. Should I do something about the main fuse or just point it out on the basis that a buyer may well do major alterations anyway. Is it involved getting that main fuse upgraded?
Ray.

I'd suggest it's a case of caveat emptor. If they're having a survey done that wouldnt be expected to include a detailed electrical inspection but it should comment that a 50 amp supply is low by modern standards and recommend procuring a more detailed survey.

Dicky99 wrote:I'd suggest it's a case of caveat emptor. If they're having a survey done that wouldnt be expected to include a detailed electrical inspection but it should comment that a 50 amp supply is low by modern standards and recommend procuring a more detailed survey.

A survey won't cover wiring at all (or a lot of stuff that isn't obvious for that matter).

A surveyor wouldn't be able to make an "at a glance" judgement on whether the main fuse is adequate.

If the surveyor saw bare wires, broken fittings or round pin sockets a gogo, then it would get a mention, otherwise for any property over 10 years old, it would be a blanket recommendation to get an EICR.

Hi Folks,
Thanks for all the comments. As a blast from the past, I remembered the C!, C2 and C3 catergories when I was on the property committee at our old church.
Anyway I take the consensus, leave well alone until. If it becomes a problem we'll negotiate.
I'm trying to sort those minimal effort, max effect jobs.

Ray.

pochisoldi wrote:
A survey won't cover wiring at all (or a lot of stuff that isn't obvious for that matter).

Who said anything about wiring? The electrics are an installation and can't simply be entirely ignored in a building survey. Particularly so now with the growth in demand for car chargers and heat pumps. The survey will include at least an assessment of the age, adequacy and general condition of the visible elements of the installation.

Dicky99 wrote:

pochisoldi wrote:
A survey won't cover wiring at all (or a lot of stuff that isn't obvious for that matter).

Who said anything about wiring? The electrics are an installation and can't simply be entirely ignored in a building survey. Particularly so now with the growth in demand for car chargers and heat pumps. The survey will include at least an assessment of the age, adequacy and general condition of the visible elements of the installation.

"Wiring" and "the electrics" are the same thing.
A surveyor is no more qualified to assess the standard of "the electrics" than an electrician is qualified to determine if a building is good security for a mortgage. Any surveyor worth their salt would recommend an EICR be carried out rather than issuing a report that says "the electrics" are hunky dory, and every property survey report I've seen has contained that recommendation.

pochisoldi wrote:
"Wiring" and "the electrics" are the same thing.

On the contrary. Wiring is wiring whereas the electrical installation includes the main fuse, consumer units, breakers or fuses, switch plates and sockets outlets etc. All of these can be visually inspected for type, age and condition unlike the wiring which cannot be inspected without exposure and would be outside of scope generally.

pochisoldi wrote: A surveyor is no more qualified to assess the standard of "the electrics" than an electrician is qualified to determine if a building is good security for a mortgage.

That's nonsense. As well as being within scope, a Building Surveyor is well qualified to comment on the age, condition and adequacy of the installation and recommend a specialists report if considered appropriate. It's well outside the scope of an Electrician's remit to comment on the mortgage security.

pochisoldi wrote:Any surveyor worth their salt would recommend an EICR be carried out rather than issuing a report that says "the electrics" are hunky dory, and every property survey report I've seen has contained that recommendation.

I'm not sure what kind of reports you've seen but an RICS format survey report wouldn't deem an installation "hunky dory" but we can agree that it likely would recommend a more detailed condition report to be commissioned. Particularly given that the wiring, which is one part of the installation, cannot be visually inspected.

Dicky99 wrote:

pochisoldi wrote:
"Wiring" and "the electrics" are the same thing.

On the contrary. Wiring is wiring whereas the electrical installation includes the main fuse, consumer units, breakers or fuses, switch plates and sockets outlets etc. All of these can be visually inspected for type, age and condition unlike the wiring which cannot be inspected without exposure and would be outside of scope generally.

"You need to get the wiring checked - ask for an EICR"
"You need to get the electrics checked - ask for an EICR"
"You need to get the electrical installation checked - ask for an EICR"

Three ways of saying the same thing.

pochisoldi wrote:

Dicky99 wrote:
On the contrary. Wiring is wiring whereas the electrical installation includes the main fuse, consumer units, breakers or fuses, switch plates and sockets outlets etc. All of these can be visually inspected for type, age and condition unlike the wiring which cannot be inspected without exposure and would be outside of scope generally.

"You need to get the wiring checked - ask for an EICR"
"You need to get the electrics checked - ask for an EICR"
"You need to get the electrical installation checked - ask for an EICR"

Three ways of saying the same thing.

And more to the point - generally the full extent of the Building Surveyor's [1] report on the matter, rather like their involvement in the Gas installations.

Paul

[1] The Clue is in the name

scrumpyjack wrote:I had my main fuse upgraded from 60 amp to 100 amp as part of having an EV charger. There were 3 UK Power Network lorries here for a couple of hours!!! It was organised by my electricians.

Until a couple of years ago our cottage still had its original 100A fuse from 1953 when t'leccy arrived in the village. The chap who did the meter swap (dumb to dumb) replaced it with a new one, turned out he had a private collection of old fuses....

When we had an inspection to renew the electrical cert I don't think the fuse cover was removed, not unless the electrician had a Western Power lead seal stamp so would they even know the fuse rating?

V8

88V8 wrote:When we had an inspection to renew the electrical cert I don't think the fuse cover was removed, not unless the electrician had a Western Power lead seal stamp so would they even know the fuse rating?

No they wouldn't. When I issue EICRs I just write Unkn. in the appropriate box if the amperage isn't written on the fuse holder. As far as I know we are not allowed to remove the service fuse. C.

No they wouldn't. When I issue EICRs I just write Unkn. in the appropriate box if the amperage isn't written on the fuse holder. As far as I know we are not allowed to remove the service fuse. C.

Chris, you are quite right in that electricians are not allowed to remove the service fuse or touch the fuseholder. This is the property of the DNO and only authorised persons are allow to work on it. The authorised persons are the DNOs own staff and some people who fit Smart Meters, who have been trained to do this work and are issued with seals by the DNO.

I understand that one of the reasons DNOs do this normally for free, is to discourage unauthorised tampering, which can be dangerous and even fatal.

I am currently having the service fuse upgraded and so far have found UKPN. our DNO, very helpful, far better than most ultility cos.

O/T, so apols for jumping in. Another query!

About ten years ago, we had new tails and 100 amp fuses installed by the local provider on a commercial property that we own. It cost us about £1,500, IIRC correctly, but the job was well done and there were no problems.

Except that the old tails were left dangling in the meter cupboard when the workmen went away. (A pair of, ooh, I dunno, 35mm thick grey cables, kind of greasy, with bare wire-ends from where they'd been unscrewed from the old fuse holders.) There's about eight feet of the buggers in there, and we need them tidied up.

Would I be right in thinking that only the provider is allowed to touch these redundant tail cables, or could any sparky do it?

Cheers, BJ