The Lemon Fool

Comparing storage radiators with battery packs. One is chock-full of bleeding edge battery technology, the other has bricks. Unless you want to be independent of the grid, or time-shift electricity consumption, the brick solution, coupled to an intelligent switch that finds out the weather forecast, sounds so much cheaper.

Of the 4 storage radiators we've had in this house, one failed after 50 years, one has been working for 70 years, and 2 have been working for 50 years. I'm sure being all electric costs more than combined gas/electric, but the difference is shrunk once you remove gas standing charges and boiler replacement and servicing costs.

servodude wrote:

XFool wrote:But do any domestic infra-red heaters really use lasers (where all the energy is on a spot frequency)? I'd have thought they just used 'hot things'.

It won't be lasered for a space heater - but it doesn't need to be to be to be risky.... and the nature of the heating doesn't change the aspects of SWIR that make it a (relatively more) dangerous part of the spectrum. You don't get the sensations of heat or light to warn you to look away.

You alluded to UV and it's similar in that by the time you notice the damage it's already done.

Which is why all bakers go blind and all cookbooks warn you never to look into an oven. NOT.

Two issues with storage heaters.

First don't assume that the current "off peak" time periods will persist. I don't know what's going to happen, except it won't be the same as the '60s or today. Storage heaters would work better with the "duck-curve" currently seen in California where off-peak is mid-afternoon.
 
Secondly one figure of merit for a storage heater is how much they "leak" when not actively heating. They can almost certainly do better than the benchmark designs from the '60s. For example well sealed electrically controlled doors can prevent convection while idle. Improved insulation is also available.

9873210 wrote:

servodude wrote:
It won't be lasered for a space heater - but it doesn't need to be to be to be risky.... and the nature of the heating doesn't change the aspects of SWIR that make it a (relatively more) dangerous part of the spectrum. You don't get the sensations of heat or light to warn you to look away.

You alluded to UV and it's similar in that by the time you notice the damage it's already done.

Which is why all bakers go blind and all cookbooks warn you never to look into an oven. NOT.

ha yeah . not quite that diffuse..

still true though that at wavelengths less that ~1um your eye is transparent, but you don't register the "radiation" and have no blink reflex to defend against it... so you can do quick irreversible damage without a whole load of power
- concentrating your eyes on longer wavelengths of heat will probably eventually give you cataracts but those are easier to fix

servodude wrote:

9873210 wrote:
Which is why all bakers go blind and all cookbooks warn you never to look into an oven. NOT.

ha yeah . not quite that diffuse..

Infrared heating is more diffuse and at longer wavelengths than an oven. If it were as intense as an oven it would be an oven, eye damage would not be what you are worried about.

Reminds me of the fear people used to have of "no" ventilation, central heating and north sea gas back in the day when "proper" heating was a coal fire and a howling gale.

9873210 wrote:

servodude wrote:a yeah . not quite that diffuse..

Infrared heating is more diffuse and at longer wavelengths than an oven. If it were as intense as an oven it would be an oven, eye damage would not be what you are worried about.
Reminds me of the fear people used to have of "no" ventilation, central heating and north sea gas back in the day when "proper" heating was a coal fire and a howling gale.

A valid fear? Given that most people now live in houses sealed up tight as a drum, with emanations from overused household hygiene products, and artificial fibres, and now we have a huge rise in allergies.

When we had new windows made, they came with unwanted rubber seals, in which I cut holes to maintain a healthy draught.

V8

9873210 wrote:Reminds me of the fear people used to have of "no" ventilation, central heating and north sea gas back in the day.

Give me town gas any day, never trust that North Sea stuff, surely it's too wet to burn properly.

DrFfybes wrote:

9873210 wrote:Reminds me of the fear people used to have of "no" ventilation, central heating and north sea gas back in the day.

Give me town gas any day, never trust that North Sea stuff, surely it's too wet to burn properly.

Very handy for a quick 'Exit' too, if the need arises...

88V8 wrote:

9873210 wrote:Infrared heating is more diffuse and at longer wavelengths than an oven. If it were as intense as an oven it would be an oven, eye damage would not be what you are worried about.
Reminds me of the fear people used to have of "no" ventilation, central heating and north sea gas back in the day when "proper" heating was a coal fire and a howling gale.

A valid fear? Given that most people now live in houses sealed up tight as a drum, with emanations from overused household hygiene products, and artificial fibres, and now we have a huge rise in allergies.

When we had new windows made, they came with unwanted rubber seals, in which I cut holes to maintain a healthy draught.

V8

I like ventilation; It makes the air much more pleasant, stops wallpaper peeling off the wall and keeps mould away
I like it from proper vents in proper places though - I'd let my windows shut properly

Following on from my last comments on this thread, there was an interesting article in today's Sunday Times Home section about an architect called Richard Hawkes. The article was entitled "Infrared: The Lesser-Known Option." It was basically about rolls of a graphene-impregnated material that is skimmed into the ceiling and wired- up to emit infrared rays.
More for new build probably but very interesting all the same.
I am still planning to install some infrared panels to see how they perform and will be back here to report as soon as they have been operating for awhile.

Y

yieldhog wrote:I am still planning to install some infrared panels to see how they perform and will be back here to report as soon as they have been operating for awhile.Y

I'm going to get a couple of panels. The first is a picture panel for the stairwell, about 70cm x 80cm which has a list price about £900. The second is a towel rail which I haven't priced up yet.
I'm trying to find an electrician with some experience of infrared panels but haven't yet found one. Probably best just to get a good recommended electrician rather than waste time trying to find an infrared-experienced one.

Y

yieldhog wrote:I'm trying to find an electrician with some experience of infrared panels but haven't yet found one.

Wrong trade. You need a HVAC engineer or technician (preferably with experience of infrared panels) to design the system. Safely hooking up the wires should be within the capacity of any electrician, as long as he's not so experienced that he ignores any plans.

9873210 wrote:

yieldhog wrote:I'm trying to find an electrician with some experience of infrared panels but haven't yet found one.

Wrong trade. You need a HVAC engineer or technician (preferably with experience of infrared panels) to design the system. Safely hooking up the wires should be within the capacity of any electrician, as long as he's not so experienced that he ignores any plans.

I agree. From a competent electrician you can expect a suitable supply to the panel with an adequate means of isolation for maintenance purposes and an electrical installation certificate (more probably a minor works certificate). Any input regarding the adequacy of the panel would be entirely hit and miss. C.

PS I have installed exactly one. I had no idea what I was doing other than to cover the wattage of the load. However I did stand under the (ceiling mounted) thing in this huge granny flat and can testify that it felt like standing outside on a sunny day with the sun beaming down on me.

csearle wrote:PS I have installed exactly one. I had no idea what I was doing other than to cover the wattage of the load. However I did stand under the (ceiling mounted) thing in this huge granny flat and can testify that it felt like standing outside on a sunny day with the sun beaming down on me.

That's good to hear from someone with actual experience.

Yesterday, I got the go-ahead from our local council to install solar panels, which is needed because we are in a conservation area. That will help if we eventually move to all electric.
The installation of a logburner was not so straightforward because it would require planning permission for the flu on the outside of the building. We may consider something like this as an alternative:

https://westcountryfires.co.uk/product/ ... WqEALw_wcB

Much less expensive and hassle.

Y

I looked at one of the fake flame electric fires in B&Q before Christmas. They top end ones are really, really good (i.e. lifelike)

So much so, I was reluctant to put my hand in it. So I made the wife put her hand in it and she reported no searing heat. Which is cool (literally!)

yieldhog wrote:The installation of a logburner was not so straightforward because it would require planning permission for the flu on the outside of the building. We may consider something like this as an alternative:

https://westcountryfires.co.uk/product/ ... WqEALw_wcB

Much less expensive and hassle.

Y

We looked at these, and gas ones, as an alternative for our log burner.

The air to air unit we chose instead (if you have wallspace inside) was smaller, cheaper, quiet, mess free, quick acting, cheap to run, and cools in winter.

The only thing is doesn't do is provide a focal point for the room, but that has ended to be the telly since the 1960s anyway

Paul

yieldhog wrote:The installation of a logburner was not so straightforward because it would require planning permission for the flu on the outside of the building. We may consider something like this as an alternative:

https://westcountryfires.co.uk/product/ ... WqEALw_wcB

Much less expensive and hassle.

The difference between one of these and an electric oil-filled radiator, or an old fashioned three bar electric fire is esthetics. If you want the looks go for it, if you just want heat you can save some money.