ASHP replacement - already?

[AberChap]

Background: 10.5 years in and looking down the barrel of replacing fatally flawed Dimplex Air Source Heat Pump. Dimplex pulled the plug on our model and the domestic market for these machines. As a consequence, obtaining an engineer to assess current problem and price a fix is proving nigh on impossible. The unit has been good when working, but first started showing problems 2 years ago. Current issue means it is completely non-operational. Control panel shows "Network Refreshing" - best guess is a communication network or PCB problem??

Consequently, now looking into full replacement. Keen to avoid similar reliability and manufacturer support issues in future. Can anyone out there point me towards unbiased assessments, or personal experience, of current models in terms of reliability and consumer support?

Our existing unit is 12kW (max available on single phase at the time of installation) which heats the property well, but extra capacity worth having if available. Initial screening of local installers suggesting Mitsubishi Ecodan 14kW unit. Anyone with experience of these?

[tacpot12]

No specific experience with heatpumps, but recognise Mitsubishi Ecodan as being a popular make.

It's also look at the Vaillant AroTHERM 12kW. I'm not sure I would oversize the heat pump unless you have a real concern about performance. The next AroTHERM up is 15kW. The AroTHERM are very efficient, and are the ones to beat in my opinon.

If you aren't aware of Homly, have a look at this video: https://youtu.be/RjOCzbvSaws?si=_nDHOoAUEKiXI1Kx

Homely don't support every make/model of Heat Pump, so make sure you factor in what they support if you think that Homly is the best controller for you.

[DrFfybes]

I must admit I'd never have assiciated Dimples with ASHP.

There are well known established brands with lost of experience - Daikin, Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (2 seperate companies), Hitachi, etc have been market leaders for years.

A lot of boiler manufacturers are now getting involved, like Vaillant and Viessmann, and also large electronics companies like LG and Samsung, but personally I'd stick with one from the first 4 on the list.

10.5 years sounds bad, but I bet Mike4 can tell you of a few boilers he's replace younger than that.

Paul

[Howard]

We were recommended a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ASHP to cool/heat two rooms a few years ago. It has been very good so far. Very quiet and amazingly low energy consumption.

regards

Howard

[BullDog]

Sympathies. Most likely a bought in Chinese unit with a Dimplex badge stuck on it? It's tragic that it's only lasted 10 years. I'm sure it's repairable but finding someone who knows enough to actually repair it is a problem, I guess. All in the name of "the environment ". The world's gone mad.

[UncleEbenezer]

Was it marketed as a "smart home" device, perhaps one you could control with an app on your phone?

If so, it might be tied to a server somewhere in the cloud, which makes it a total hostage to fortune. Systems like that can (at least sometimes) be hacked to work for you, so if you have a tame geek it might be worth discussing with them.

For future reference, never, ever subscribe to a proprietary service. Any "smart" connected devices should work to well-supported open standards and be open-source, so you have other options if a rug gets pulled from under you.

[BullDog]

Was it marketed as a "smart home" device, perhaps one you could control with an app on your phone?

If so, it might be tied to a server somewhere in the cloud, which makes it a total hostage to fortune. Systems like that can (at least sometimes) be hacked to work for you, so if you have a tame geek it might be worth discussing with them.

For future reference, never, ever subscribe to a proprietary service. Any "smart" connected devices should work to well-supported open standards and be open-source, so you have other options if a rug gets pulled from under you.

I had similar thoughts. If the unit is mechanically sound, then I'm sure it could be controlled through a third party control system. Snag is it's going to be difficult finding a suitable third party controller and someone who understands enough to fit and recommission the system after fitting.

[Mike4]

Sympathies. Most likely a bought in Chinese unit with a Dimplex badge stuck on it? It's tragic that it's only lasted 10 years. I'm sure it's repairable but finding someone who knows enough to actually repair it is a problem, I guess. All in the name of "the environment ". The world's gone mad.

This certainly seems to be the case. I started a thread in "The Combustion Chamber" about this and a couple of people have suggested its not only Dimplex that re-badge stuff. Finger pointed at Samsung, Toshiba and Panasonic too.

One regular installer of ASHPs suggests ASHP failure is commonplace and parts for all makes are so expensive to obtain and so slow to get that most of the time they end up fitting a whole new appliance when one breaks down. This strikes me as the Next Big Reason not to buy a heat pump.

Another poster says Dimplex ASHPs were re-badged Panasonics. For what that's worth, given the other poster's assertion that Panasonic are re-badgers too!

Looks like the whole 'ongoing maintenance' thing is an utter shambles and early adopters are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle.

[rabbit]

No direct experience, but I had a local heating engineer around recently to do a comprehensive survey for a possible ASHP in future. He rates Vaillant Arotherm (Vaillant make them in house - not rebadged) and finds them to be reliable. The chap concerned only does heat pumps now (he spends a lot of time putting right other peoples' botched installations!) and he is well regarded locally so I trust his judgement.

[Mike4]

No direct experience, but I had a local heating engineer around recently to do a comprehensive survey for a possible ASHP in future. He rates Vaillant Arotherm (Vaillant make them in house - not rebadged) and finds them to be reliable. The chap concerned only does heat pumps now (he spends a lot of time putting right other peoples' botched installations!) and he is well regarded locally so I trust his judgement.

The interesting thing is boiler manus have been given quotas by the guvvermint for heat pump sales as a proportion of their gas boiler sales. If they miss the heat pump sales quotas they get fined (by another name). A short while ago all boiler manus decided to add £150 to each gas boiler sale to fund the fines they all expect to be levied. Then a fortnight ago political pressure forced them to scrap the £150. Now there is hell to pay over all the gas boilers sold at the inflated price with installers demanding a refund.

Does your well regarded local installer also fix them when they pack up? Or pass the buck and say "Call Vaillant"? Just curious. Installers in general know how to install stuff but are not noted for their expertise in fixing things that go wrong later. The Arotherm hasn't been around anything like the ten years it took for the OP's ASHP to pack up so I'm not sure I'd trust even the Vaillant name with such a very new product.

[BullDog]

Sympathies. Most likely a bought in Chinese unit with a Dimplex badge stuck on it? It's tragic that it's only lasted 10 years. I'm sure it's repairable but finding someone who knows enough to actually repair it is a problem, I guess. All in the name of "the environment ". The world's gone mad.

This certainly seems to be the case. I started a thread in "The Combustion Chamber" about this and a couple of people have suggested its not only Dimplex that re-badge stuff. Finger pointed at Samsung, Toshiba and Panasonic too.

One regular installer of ASHPs suggests ASHP failure is commonplace and parts for all makes are so expensive to obtain and so slow to get that most of the time they end up fitting a whole new appliance when one breaks down. This strikes me as the Next Big Reason not to buy a heat pump.

Another poster says Dimplex ASHPs were re-badged Panasonics. For what that's worth, given the other poster's assertion that Panasonic are re-badgers too!

Looks like the whole 'ongoing maintenance' thing is an utter shambles and early adopters are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle.

I suspect that's a pretty good summary of where we are.

For industrial chiller sets (same thing as a domestic heat pump but much bigger) it's common to use 3rd party control systems instead of the chiller manufacturer's controls. My guess is that there's little to nothing wrong with the Dimplex unit heat pump hardware. I suspect in more mature heat pump markets, 3rd party controls for domestic heat pumps are available. But in the UK we are nowhere near that kind of maturity in the market place. And we won't be for some considerable time yet. (Heck, it's hard enough finding anyone who fully understands a gas boiler these days).

It's disgraceful that we're all being encouraged to rip out perfectly efficient (relatively simple) gas boilers and replace them with heat pumps that are going to be landfill in a decade because nobody will know how to fix them.

[Mike4]

This certainly seems to be the case. I started a thread in "The Combustion Chamber" about this and a couple of people have suggested its not only Dimplex that re-badge stuff. Finger pointed at Samsung, Toshiba and Panasonic too.

One regular installer of ASHPs suggests ASHP failure is commonplace and parts for all makes are so expensive to obtain and so slow to get that most of the time they end up fitting a whole new appliance when one breaks down. This strikes me as the Next Big Reason not to buy a heat pump.

Another poster says Dimplex ASHPs were re-badged Panasonics. For what that's worth, given the other poster's assertion that Panasonic are re-badgers too!

Looks like the whole 'ongoing maintenance' thing is an utter shambles and early adopters are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle.

I suspect that's a pretty good summary of where we are.

For industrial chiller sets (same thing as a domestic heat pump but much bigger) it's common to use 3rd party control systems instead of the chiller manufacturer's controls. My guess is that there's little to nothing wrong with the Dimplex unit heat pump hardware. I suspect in more mature heat pump markets, 3rd party controls for domestic heat pumps are available. But in the UK we are nowhere near that kind of maturity in the market place. And we won't be for some considerable time yet. (Heck, it's hard enough finding anyone who fully understands a gas boiler these days).

It's disgraceful that we're all being encouraged to rip out perfectly efficient (relatively simple) gas boilers and replace them with heat pumps that are going to be landfill in a decade because nobody will know how to fix them.

I wholly agree. The OP's Dimplex is probably structurally fine but an unnecessarily over-complicated electronic user interface has croaked, and all the developers who designed it had their contracts terminated long ago. So there is not a prayer of any support from Dimplex as no-one working there today knows anything about those old heat pumps they used to sell.

Your suggestion that separate 3rd party control systems and user control interfaces should be used is an excellent one IMO, but unlikely to happen as UK buyers love the clever-looking panels, remote controllers and interfaces to control the system from a phone app. The manus also like this as it lets them all reinforce their branding and claim their interface and control system is the best!

On the upside for the OP, all the design and specifying work has been done so all that needs to happen is someone buy a new ASHP of the same spec from Climate Center (or whoever) for £4k and swap it over. Probably a day's work for two blokes. Disposal of the dead ASHP might be awkward though, just as old fridges are really difficult now.

I'm told that in countries like Canada, Norway etc heat pumps are far more widely used than here but I've yet to find out if these counties are running water-filled radiators with them, or ducted warm air heating systems. Does anyone here know perhaps, please?

[Howard]

When I ordered our aircon I discussed with the installer whether we needed to be able to control it by phone. He and I agreed that it was an unnecessary complication. The only advantage I could see was that I could switch it on in advance of arriving home on a cold day.

In our experience a warm air ASHP heats a room so fast that there is no need to switch it on early. By the time one has taken one's coat off it's already warming the air in the room.

The basic controls of a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ASHP include a timer and sleep setting. Our installer told me the ASHP was manufactured in Scotland, his operation has serviced mainly commercial MHI installations for years so hopefully help is at hand if there is a failure.

Disclosure: I have carried out a maintenance operation in the last five years. Changing the AA batteries in the remote control .

regards

Howard

[AberChap]

Sympathies. Most likely a bought in Chinese unit with a Dimplex badge stuck on it? It's tragic that it's only lasted 10 years. I'm sure it's repairable but finding someone who knows enough to actually repair it is a problem, I guess. All in the name of "the environment ". The world's gone mad.

This certainly seems to be the case. I started a thread in "The Combustion Chamber" about this and a couple of people have suggested its not only Dimplex that re-badge stuff. Finger pointed at Samsung, Toshiba and Panasonic too.

One regular installer of ASHPs suggests ASHP failure is commonplace and parts for all makes are so expensive to obtain and so slow to get that most of the time they end up fitting a whole new appliance when one breaks down. This strikes me as the Next Big Reason not to buy a heat pump.

Another poster says Dimplex ASHPs were re-badged Panasonics. For what that's worth, given the other poster's assertion that Panasonic are re-badgers too!

Looks like the whole 'ongoing maintenance' thing is an utter shambles and early adopters are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle.

Your point is spot on. I have finally (its taken over a week) been able to speak with 2 engineers that Dimplex say "support" the model. Both basically saying, we're not interested, parts not avilable and easier money elsewhere. They were both telling saying how they are replacing these models and other brands (<10yrs), that are not economic to repair/can't get the parts. The technology is good - when working our running bills have been low (renovated, well insulated property - we decided to buy carbon upfront) - but manufacturer/supplier support and available skills to diagnose and repair, are a definite weak point.

We're rural with no mains gas and oil not acceptable within the household, so options are limited. Moving to biomass would mean sacrificing a room for storage and auto feed, so a no go.

In short, looking for replacement model with manufacturer track record and developed local engineer network. In our area, Mitsubishi scoring best to date - but setting up a replacement fund earlier this time round!

PS - glad we have a woodburning stove!

[Mike4]

When I ordered our aircon I discussed with the installer whether we needed to be able to control it by phone. He and I agreed that it was an unnecessary complication. The only advantage I could see was that I could switch it on in advance of arriving home on a cold day.

In our experience a warm air ASHP heats a room so fast that there is no need to switch it on early. By the time one has taken one's coat off it's already warming the air in the room.

The basic controls of a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ASHP include a timer and sleep setting. Our installer told me the ASHP was manufactured in Scotland, his operation has serviced mainly commercial MHI installations for years so hopefully help is at hand if there is a failure.

Disclosure: I have carried out a maintenance operation in the last five years. Changing the AA batteries in the remote control .

regards

Howard

This touches on another issue. Maintenance.

I did a heat pump training course (for installers) about 30 years ago and on that, they impressed upon us the need to re-charge the refrigerant in a heat pump periodically. As they lose refrigerant slowly over long periods of time they continue working but the COP falls slowly towards 1 so you can end up using as much electricity as if you were using fan heaters.

If you find your leccy bills creeping up then consider getting the heat pump re-charged with refrigerant. Businesses are generally far more disciplined about having their air cons properly and routinely maintained than householders, who tend to let it drift.

[servodude]

When I ordered our aircon I discussed with the installer whether we needed to be able to control it by phone. He and I agreed that it was an unnecessary complication. The only advantage I could see was that I could switch it on in advance of arriving home on a cold day.

In our experience a warm air ASHP heats a room so fast that there is no need to switch it on early. By the time one has taken one's coat off it's already warming the air in the room.

The basic controls of a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries ASHP include a timer and sleep setting. Our installer told me the ASHP was manufactured in Scotland, his operation has serviced mainly commercial MHI installations for years so hopefully help is at hand if there is a failure.

Disclosure: I have carried out a maintenance operation in the last five years. Changing the AA batteries in the remote control .

regards

Howard

This touches on another issue. Maintenance.

I did a heat pump training course (for installers) about 30 years ago and on that, they impressed upon us the need to re-charge the refrigerant in a heat pump periodically. As they lose refrigerant slowly over long periods of time they continue working but the COP falls slowly towards 1 so you can end up using as much electricity as if you were using fan heaters.

If you find your leccy bills creeping up then consider getting the heat pump re-charged with refrigerant. Businesses are generally far more disciplined about having their air cons properly and routinely maintained than householders, who tend to let it drift.

They should not be losing refrigerant these days

[DrFfybes]

In our experience a warm air ASHP heats a room so fast that there is no need to switch it on early. By the time one has taken one's coat off it's already warming the air in the room.
[...]
Disclosure: I have carried out a maintenance operation in the last five years. Changing the AA batteries in the remote control .

I cleared the filters out on our last week. The batteries are still fine though

The new setup going in the newly built extension will have wifi control, basically because the size of internal unit we want only comes in the 'premium' range. As we haven't ever fathomed the Timer or Sleep controls yet then I doubt it will be of much use.

[UncleEbenezer]

Another poster says Dimplex ASHPs were re-badged Panasonics. For what that's worth, given the other poster's assertion that Panasonic are re-badgers too!

That must be the solution, then.

The OP's system is victim of a badger cull.

[9873210]

This touches on another issue. Maintenance.

I did a heat pump training course (for installers) about 30 years ago and on that, they impressed upon us the need to re-charge the refrigerant in a heat pump periodically. As they lose refrigerant slowly over long periods of time ...

Was it perhaps more than 30 years ago? The Montreal protocol was in 1987. By 1994 they should have been training you that regular recharge was not acceptable and proactive maintenance should prevent leaks. And that the older practice of venting the system for maintenance was verboten.

[rabbit]

No direct experience, but I had a local heating engineer around recently to do a comprehensive survey for a possible ASHP in future. He rates Vaillant Arotherm (Vaillant make them in house - not rebadged) and finds them to be reliable. The chap concerned only does heat pumps now (he spends a lot of time putting right other peoples' botched installations!) and he is well regarded locally so I trust his judgement.

Does your well regarded local installer also fix them when they pack up?

In a word, yes.