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Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

A friendly ear
ten0rman
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Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360223

Postby ten0rman » November 26th, 2020, 11:26 am

I'm absolutely bl00dy fed up. Fed up that is of those people who think it appropriate to ask users to use yet another piece of meaningless information when logging on. That makes, in this instance:
User ID;
Password;
TWO security questions, with one being maternal grandmother's maiden name;
email address;

and now a memorable word at least 8 characters long of which I may be asked for any two characters, plus a reminder question

And they are also asking for mobile number when they've already got my landline number.

So what am I trying to do? Rob the Bank of England? Well not really, merely request yet another months supply of medication!

Now fair enough, they don't ask for all the above info, but the User id is 11 digits long, and my password is 13 characters long and includes uppercase, lower case, numbers and non-alphabetic characters so why isn't that enough?

Frankly, it's enough to make me think about abandoning the idea and going back to using a telephone. Ok, it might take longer, and no doubt the surgery will start complaining about wasting their admin peoples time, but what about MY time; and MY state of mind; and so-on and so forth. I really do believe we've gone overboard with all this and we really do need to simplify matters.

Sorry, rant over.

ten0rman

Itsallaguess
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360247

Postby Itsallaguess » November 26th, 2020, 12:21 pm

ten0rman wrote:
I really do believe we've gone overboard with all this and we really do need to simplify matters.


I tend to agree - but there are tools available to help with all this, and making use of them can deliver an improved level of security at the same time as making these sites easier to access -

https://keepass.info/

It's a free download - why not give it a go and see how you get on with it?

Double-clicking on an entry in the tool will open up a 'Notes' window where you can keep all sorts of useful information, to help with these 'multi-input' security sites....

I've been using a variant of this for years, and can highly recommend it...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

stevensfo
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360250

Postby stevensfo » November 26th, 2020, 12:25 pm

ten0rman wrote:I'm absolutely bl00dy fed up. Fed up that is of those people who think it appropriate to ask users to use yet another piece of meaningless information when logging on. That makes, in this instance:
User ID;
Password;
TWO security questions, with one being maternal grandmother's maiden name;
email address;

and now a memorable word at least 8 characters long of which I may be asked for any two characters, plus a reminder question

And they are also asking for mobile number when they've already got my landline number.

So what am I trying to do? Rob the Bank of England? Well not really, merely request yet another months supply of medication!

Now fair enough, they don't ask for all the above info, but the User id is 11 digits long, and my password is 13 characters long and includes uppercase, lower case, numbers and non-alphabetic characters so why isn't that enough?

Frankly, it's enough to make me think about abandoning the idea and going back to using a telephone. Ok, it might take longer, and no doubt the surgery will start complaining about wasting their admin peoples time, but what about MY time; and MY state of mind; and so-on and so forth. I really do believe we've gone overboard with all this and we really do need to simplify matters.

Sorry, rant over.

ten0rman


What amuses me is that whenever my Mum asks me or someone else to pop into the Pharmacy and pick up her prescription, they hand it over without a murmur! Mind you, it is a local Pharmacy, for local people. ;)

This security business is getting a bit silly, I admit, and I wonder how we all survived before. Obviously we were all getting heroin and Jack Daniels on prescription, all our bank accounts were cleared out daily by ID theft fraud and we were all soooo busy laundering money for foreign regimes and drug barons or spending millions buying real estate worth 25p, weren't we? Oh, hang on. That's what the 'banks' were doing. Silly me.

Our intranets and IT people at work are so screwed up with security rules that people actually keep post-its on their computers with all their passwords on.

Of course, everything will be okay once we have the RFID chips embedded in our skull.

Steve

Midsmartin
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360262

Postby Midsmartin » November 26th, 2020, 12:51 pm

I second the suggestion to use a software password manager. Keepass is fine and there are paid options too.

The keepass database can and should be encrypted and protected with a master password. Make sure your spouse or potential executors know about it and have access to the master password so they can access your email, Facebook etc if needed. And if you want them to!

Dod101
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360268

Postby Dod101 » November 26th, 2020, 12:58 pm

I do not mind rigorous security for my bank accounts and investment platforms, both of which access my hard earned cash but I must say that if all I want to do is by some printer ink for instance it is quite ridiculous. I always where I can buy as a Guest which saves a lot of hassle most of the time.

Dod

stevensfo
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360272

Postby stevensfo » November 26th, 2020, 1:13 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
ten0rman wrote:
I really do believe we've gone overboard with all this and we really do need to simplify matters.


I tend to agree - but there are tools available to help with all this, and making use of them can deliver an improved level of security at the same time as making these sites easier to access -

https://keepass.info/

It's a free download - why not give it a go and see how you get on with it?

Double-clicking on an entry in the tool will open up a 'Notes' window where you can keep all sorts of useful information, to help with these 'multi-input' security sites....

I've been using a variant of this for years, and can highly recommend it...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Thanks for this reminder. I've been putting this off for years, but I really need to get everything sorted out, especially security info for websites and accounts as well as a simplified overview of the family's finances. Like most us, I suspect that if anything happened to me, sorting out my accounts, brokers etc would keep my family busy for years! I have all financial info on a very nice but complex Excel sheet. It all makes sense to me but would be gibberish to my wife and kids.

Steve

JohnB
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360277

Postby JohnB » November 26th, 2020, 1:23 pm

I guess the OP is referring to Patient Access, who's IT department have always been idiots. I've discovered they have a phone app which avoids the stupidity, so I've started used that for Mum who needs many things, some monthly.

You can use PA's feedback system, but the people there are pretty dim too.

My hate is captchas AFTER I've given valid usernames and passwords. The Guardian do this when I go and give them donations. My donations have become less frequent because if it.

stevensfo
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360288

Postby stevensfo » November 26th, 2020, 1:50 pm

JohnB wrote:I guess the OP is referring to Patient Access, who's IT department have always been idiots. I've discovered they have a phone app which avoids the stupidity, so I've started used that for Mum who needs many things, some monthly.

You can use PA's feedback system, but the people there are pretty dim too.

My hate is captchas AFTER I've given valid usernames and passwords. The Guardian do this when I go and give them donations. My donations have become less frequent because if it.


Oh, I think even worse than captchas are those images with letters and numbers portrayed in a blurred or difficult to read way, which you have to type in. The problem is that very often, they are just TOO bloody difficult to make out. Thankfully, there seem to be fewer about these days.

Steve

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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360291

Postby Adamski » November 26th, 2020, 2:11 pm

I agree having a Memorable word on Patient Access is OTT.

Had fun resetting it round my mother in laws. Sure this will be happening round the country.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360365

Postby Itsallaguess » November 26th, 2020, 4:57 pm

stevensfo wrote:
Thanks for this reminder.

I've been putting this off for years, but I really need to get everything sorted out, especially security info for websites and accounts as well as a simplified overview of the family's finances.

Like most us, I suspect that if anything happened to me, sorting out my accounts, brokers etc would keep my family busy for years!

I have all financial info on a very nice but complex Excel sheet. It all makes sense to me but would be gibberish to my wife and kids.


We have a very basic Excel spreadsheet with a list of all major accounts, and we enter updated year-end figures in each December, and also update any new account information (changes / new accounts etc..) as and when they occur.

I keep a copy of the spreadsheet in a fireproof safe on two separate USB sticks, and I also have a local copy on a secure drive on my main PC.

In both locations are also copies of my Keepass password manager database, which is of course password-protected itself.

The Excel spreadsheet has no protection itself, other than the locations it's kept in. That's a deliberate decision, because I want my wife to have full and quick visibility if anything were to happen to me.

That whole process works well, and takes minutes each year to update once it's up and running...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Mike4
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360451

Postby Mike4 » November 26th, 2020, 9:22 pm

For the avoidance of doubt, I do NOT have a files named "passwords" containing all my usernames, passwords, associated email addresses, memorable places, first pet names etc etc. running to several hundred lines of entries.

No doubt none of you lot have either.

AleisterCrowley
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360454

Postby AleisterCrowley » November 26th, 2020, 9:31 pm

No , mine's called "camping holiday checklist 2004.xls".... it is buried amongst zillions of other files, and password protected (which is not strong on Excel IIRC)
It's up to 250 lines

ten0rman
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360518

Postby ten0rman » November 27th, 2020, 9:25 am

You are quite correct, it is indeed Patient Access.

Buoyed on by the comments here in I decided to lodge a complaint. And I got a reply! "We don't monitor this email address. Please do it 'here'". Well, not exactly like that but near enough. So I looked at their option. And gave up in despair, I just could't face fighting my way through it all.

So, I'm sorry to say, it's ten0rman 0; Patient Access 1.

How I hate today's world!

ten0rman

p.s. I don't suppose it'll happen, but I wonder if there's a tiny, tiny chance that someone from Patient Access might just be monitoring this thread. No? Thought not. Oh well, back under the stone then.

Mike4
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360524

Postby Mike4 » November 27th, 2020, 10:04 am

I've just had a depressing experience too. I tried to buy some softener salt.

I called the softener company in the nearest town to see if they were open during lockdown and got their answerphone. Not a clue in their outgoing message so I left them a message asking. Then I had a lightbulb moment, lets look on their website - that ought to say. YES they are open, but only by appointment. How do we make an appointment? It doesn't say....

With five seconds poking about on the site I see they deliver, and I can order online. Yippee!!

Actually, no I can't. I have to open an account which involves giving them all manner of irrelevant info including my date of birth, WTF?! Even so, their longwinded account form refused to accept my phone number as a valid phone number so I just give up, and get on with something else.

Phone rings, it is the softener company. They are OPEN! I make an appointment to get my salt in an hour.

..... hopefully....

stevensfo
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360595

Postby stevensfo » November 27th, 2020, 12:31 pm

Mike4 wrote:I've just had a depressing experience too. I tried to buy some softener salt.

I called the softener company in the nearest town to see if they were open during lockdown and got their answerphone. Not a clue in their outgoing message so I left them a message asking. Then I had a lightbulb moment, lets look on their website - that ought to say. YES they are open, but only by appointment. How do we make an appointment? It doesn't say....

With five seconds poking about on the site I see they deliver, and I can order online. Yippee!!

Actually, no I can't. I have to open an account which involves giving them all manner of irrelevant info including my date of birth, WTF?! Even so, their longwinded account form refused to accept my phone number as a valid phone number so I just give up, and get on with something else.

Phone rings, it is the softener company. They are OPEN! I make an appointment to get my salt in an hour.

..... hopefully....


I have to open an account which involves giving them all manner of irrelevant info including my date of birth, WTF?!

Following advice from TMF many years ago, unless it's for a really important and official form, I always alter my DOB as well as other details.

Re. passwords, at the moment, I do keep them written down in a certain very long email with a boring name, but with just the first and last few characters. They are easy for me to guess but impossible for anyone else.

Steve

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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360635

Postby vrdiver » November 27th, 2020, 2:59 pm

Just had an email from Morrisons. They now want me to set up 2FA on my loyalty card...

I use 2-factor authentication on e.g. bank logins, but a loyalty card?

VRD

stevensfo
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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360664

Postby stevensfo » November 27th, 2020, 4:27 pm

vrdiver wrote:Just had an email from Morrisons. They now want me to set up 2FA on my loyalty card...

I use 2-factor authentication on e.g. bank logins, but a loyalty card?

VRD


Don't want to worry you, but in Italy, the data from Loyalty cards is shared with and analysed by the 'Guardia di Finanza' - like HMRC police with smart uniforms and guns - who use algorithms to check for discrepancies, strange payments and then decide who to check. Maybe not a bad idea to catch those people who cheat on their taxes. With 2-factor authentication, you're less likely to get away with "But my loyalty card was stolen. I have no idea who bought the 60" TV, 200W surround sound, new leather suite and twelve cases of Bollinger". ;)


Steve

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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360676

Postby Arborbridge » November 27th, 2020, 4:51 pm

We ought to be railing against the scammers and fraudsters really, rather than those trying to keep us from their evil tricks. I agree it's more than a little annoying when it is something relatively trivial.
I use Patient Access and don't feel overburdened by it: it doesn't yet qualify for one of my rants :)

As for keepass or similar, I've never tried. I just have a feeling that anything involving a third party - particularly if it is "free" must have a backdoor. I know IAAG will prove me wrong, but it's just a lingering feeling. Instead I have a Code Book which no one could ever see unless I am burgled, and even then it would be hard to make any sense of. The weakness is that any password I could write down wouldn't be of top strength, but my major financial accounts have 2FA or similar.

When day, I might wake up and find my whole digital house has collapsed around me: then I'll regret not having keepass.

Arb.

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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360690

Postby Howard » November 27th, 2020, 5:26 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
ten0rman wrote:
I really do believe we've gone overboard with all this and we really do need to simplify matters.


I tend to agree - but there are tools available to help with all this, and making use of them can deliver an improved level of security at the same time as making these sites easier to access -

https://keepass.info/

It's a free download - why not give it a go and see how you get on with it?

Double-clicking on an entry in the tool will open up a 'Notes' window where you can keep all sorts of useful information, to help with these 'multi-input' security sites....

I've been using a variant of this for years, and can highly recommend it...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Can I check? Does keepass fill in all the information for you? Or does it just store passwords etc?

Google creates and stores all my non-important passwords. The important ones are written down on paper which, to me is more secure than anything on a computer. Obviously there is a fire risk. If a burglar found the document, he/she would take a long time to decipher it (no favourite pet's names used here!). And I have a brief travel version which is "sophisticatedly garbled".

Logging in to a large bank share trading site is a pain. My computer remembers my name and customer number after that it has to be paperwork for the five digit code and random selection of three digits from favourite eight letter word. I can't see how keepass will solve this problem, especially as Mrs H has an account as well so the last time of logging in may be to a different account with the same organisation.

Patient Access is straightforward, Google remembers everything up to 1st 3rd and 4th letter of favourite word - this has to be taken from paperwork.

It's easy to stop Google remembering anything which I consider to be high security. But to place an order with my local garden centre for example I'm happy to trust it.

Would keepass alert users if their data was stolen? From what I know, virtually anything can be unencrypted as we know from data breaches at the Pentagon. If someone stole my paperwork I'd know immediately.

So genuine question: is keepass easier and safer to use than a sensibly encoded paper record?

Regards

Howard

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Re: Fed up with ever increasing logon procedures!

#360699

Postby vrdiver » November 27th, 2020, 5:58 pm

Howard wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
https://keepass.info/

It's a free download - why not give it a go and see how you get on with it?

Double-clicking on an entry in the tool will open up a 'Notes' window where you can keep all sorts of useful information, to help with these 'multi-input' security sites....

I've been using a variant of this for years, and can highly recommend it...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Can I check? Does keepass fill in all the information for you? Or does it just store passwords etc?
Yes and yes. At the basic level you can use it to store userID, password, memorable date, pets name etc and then just copy and paste as required, but you can also use "autotype" and let it fill out the information required by pressing e.g. CTRL-ALT-A

Google creates and stores all my non-important passwords. The important ones are written down on paper which, to me is more secure than anything on a computer. Obviously there is a fire risk. If a burglar found the document, he/she would take a long time to decipher it. And I have a brief travel version which is "sophisticatedly garbled".Keepass is encrypted, so hacker would need your keepass password to break in (and you can add a key file, so making a password and physical file being present a requirement of entry. I have a google drive copy of my keepass database, so it's available to me whilst away from home, so no need to manage two documents

Logging in to a large bank share trading site is a pain. My computer remembers my name and customer number after that it has to be paperwork for the five digit code and random selection of three digits from favourite eight letter word. I can't see how keepass will solve this problem, especially as Mrs H has an account as well so the last time of logging in may be to a different account with the same organisation.Keepass can be told to autotype a few fields, then ask you which characters from a password you want: e.g. {PICKCHARS:Password:ID=1,C=1}{PICKCHARS:Password:ID=2,C=1}{PICKCHARS:Password:ID=3,C=1}{TAB} to select three characters based on what the site is asking for in this login instance. Mrs VRD and I both have accounts at the same bank that uses this and we have two entries in the same keepass database for this bank - one with her info, and one with mine, so I think you'd be OK as well.

Patient Access is straightforward, Google remembers everything up to 1st 3rd and 4th letter of favourite word - this has to be taken from paperwork.Keepass can be set to do this for you, whereby you just tell it which characters to choose on this occasion (see above)

It's easy to stop Google remembering anything which I consider to be high security. But to place an order with my local garden centre for example I'm happy to trust it.

Would keepass alert users if their data was stolen? No but if you have it on your local drive, the thief would have to have access to your machine, know where to look for the keepass database and be able to unencrypt it. For me, that's less of a risk than losing a written document, especially when travelling and in need of access to accounts. From what I know, virtually anything can be unencrypted as we know from data breaches at the Pentagon. If someone stole my paperwork I'd know immediately.

So genuine question: is keepass easier and safer to use than a sensibly encoded paper record? In my opinion, yes, having tried to manage passwords on paper, in excel and word, prior to using keepass. It makes the use of ridiculously long and unreadable passwords trivial, as well as being a good secure store for all the false dates of birth, pets names etc.

Regards

Howard


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