Poor misunderstood youths.

[redsturgeon]

Yes, I never report anything to motor insurers. That has probably saved me more in premia than the value of any claims I have foregone.

My insurer thinks I have not an accident or loss of any type in over 40 years and I can live with that. It is in any event only minor stuff but that can still sting you.

So I assume that you buy RTA only insurance? That is for third party personal injury. Usually restricted by insurers for those who have seriously transgressed the law such as being well over the drink drive limit. Otherwise you are wasting a lot of money.

Dod

I would not assume that RTA only insurance is significantly cheaper than FC. Certainly when I last checked TPF&T was more expensive in some cases than FC.

[Lootman]

Can you describe exactly how my insurer can miraculously divine how in 1978 I accidentally scraped my door against my garage wall?

Or how in 1996 I knocked off my wing mirror in an alleyway?

Come on, neither is a motoring accident. No one claims for things like that. What next, claiming for spilling coffee on the seats? You spoke of not reporting accidents.

Then you need to define the word "accident". Does that imply more than one vehicle, so that driving off the road and into a tree doesn't count?

In theory any incident involving your vehicle where there is loss, damage or injury is an accident, and you could make a claim. But if it is a minor thing then most people would not bother, and in that case your insurer will never know about it, so it cannot count against you.

In fact I wrote off a vehicle once. It was an old cheap car and I only had third party cover anyway. No injury, no police, no claim and so officially it never happened. Absent a police report or a claim, your insurer won't know about it.

[Spet0789]

Come on, neither is a motoring accident. No one claims for things like that. What next, claiming for spilling coffee on the seats? You spoke of not reporting accidents.

Then you need to define the word "accident". Does that imply more than one vehicle, so that driving off the road and into a tree doesn't count?

In theory any incident involving your vehicle where there is loss, damage or injury is an accident, and you could make a claim. But if it is a minor thing then most people would not bother, and in that case your insurer will never know about it, so it cannot count against you.

In fact I wrote off a vehicle once. It was an old cheap car and I only had third party cover anyway. No injury, no police, no claim and so officially it never happened. Absent a police report or a claim, your insurer won't know about it.

No, you need to read how your insurer defines the word accident. Then, if according to the policy definition you have had any within the relevant period of time (usually 5 years) and haven’t declared them we’re back to where we started. If you need to make a claim you have a choice between voiding the policy or committing fraud.

[Lootman]

Then you need to define the word "accident". Does that imply more than one vehicle, so that driving off the road and into a tree doesn't count?

In theory any incident involving your vehicle where there is loss, damage or injury is an accident, and you could make a claim. But if it is a minor thing then most people would not bother, and in that case your insurer will never know about it, so it cannot count against you.

In fact I wrote off a vehicle once. It was an old cheap car and I only had third party cover anyway. No injury, no police, no claim and so officially it never happened. Absent a police report or a claim, your insurer won't know about it.

No, you need to read how your insurer defines the word accident. Then, if according to the policy definition you have had any within the relevant period of time (usually 5 years) and haven’t declared them we’re back to where we started. If you need to make a claim you have a choice between voiding the policy or committing fraud.

Again, most people will only engage with their insurer in order to make a claim. If there is an incident that is too minor for a claim then it will simply go unreported and undocumented. For all practical purposes, it never happened.

So with the three "accidents" in my life that I described above, none involved a claim nor the police, and so none were "declared". In the first two cases there was nobody else involved. In the third case the other driver gave me cash on the spot in lieu of making a claim.

My insurer presumably does know about the two traffic tickets I got (1978 and 2019) but to my knowledge insurance was not affected.

[bungeejumper]

The other side of the cynical attitude towards insurers is that my sister recently got an entire carpet replaced by her insurers for a spill of some red wine in an obscure corner of it. Quite nonsensical but it is easier and cheaper for the insurers to pay up than to send someone out to check out the claim.

Thanks for the memory. I think we were even luckier than that, though it was twenty years ago. A red wine stain in the middle of our lounge, and the insurance assessor offered to replace not just that carpet (which was nearly new) but the one in the next room as well, because they matched. As for the damaged carpet, we re-used it in a bedroom, where (surprise surprise) the stain ended up hidden under the bed.

Ahem, back to the topic: I think we're in danger of drifting into absolutist territory once we start saying that every knock and every bumper scrape needs to be declared to the insurance company. There can't be many of us who haven't cursed and got the rattle can out, or shelled out £100 to ChipsAway to salve our battered self-respect. I've restored/replaced a couple of door mirrors which had been carelessly clouted by oncoming cars. Should I have made a claim even for a broken mirror glass? There surely has to be a commonsense threshold somewhere?

BJ

[Lootman]

Ahem, back to the topic: I think we're in danger of drifting into absolutist territory once we start saying that every knock and every bumper scrape needs to be declared to the insurance company. There can't be many of us who haven't cursed and got the rattle can out, or shelled out £100 to ChipsAway to salve our battered self-respect. I've restored/replaced a couple of door mirrors which had been carelessly clouted by oncoming cars. Should I have made a claim even for a broken mirror glass? There surely has to be a commonsense threshold somewhere?

The "commonsense threshold" for me is to ask three questions:

1) Is anyone injured?
2) Did the police get involved?
3) Is any party to the incident going to make an insurance claim or take legal action?

If the answer to all three questions is "No" then I would not notify my insurer.

[Spet0789]

Ahem, back to the topic: I think we're in danger of drifting into absolutist territory once we start saying that every knock and every bumper scrape needs to be declared to the insurance company. There can't be many of us who haven't cursed and got the rattle can out, or shelled out £100 to ChipsAway to salve our battered self-respect. I've restored/replaced a couple of door mirrors which had been carelessly clouted by oncoming cars. Should I have made a claim even for a broken mirror glass? There surely has to be a commonsense threshold somewhere?

The "commonsense threshold" for me is to ask three questions:

1) Is anyone injured?
2) Did the police get involved?
3) Is any party to the incident going to make an insurance claim or take legal action?

If the answer to all three questions is "No" then I would not notify my insurer.

What you do is up to you, but your “commonsense threshold” is neither here nor there. All that matters is what your insurer’s policy wording states. Of course you could take the view that if the answer to your questions is “No” then there is unlikely to be any evidence of your failure to declare, but that’s different.

I’d also point out that you have no way of knowing 3/. The other party to a little bump with no damage done might log the accident with their insurer with no intent of making any claim, providing your reg number. You don’t do the same. Insurers are very good at sharing information. And then you’re screwed. Knowing how crafty insurers are, they’d probably not even tell you, but just pocket the premium knowing that you’ve gone and voided your insurance by not fessing up. Then if you have a proper accident and maintain you’ve had no accidents, it’s fraud conviction time!

I know you used to work in the City. It feels like you picked up some of the bad old day habits there. If you think you won’t be caught, anything goes. I recall some similar comments about lockdown rules.

Insurers are sharp elbowed when it comes to claims. Best to be fully open with them. Of course if you scrape your own wing mirror on your own garage door, no issues. But any accident you need to report to them.

https://www.beckettandco.co.uk/notifyin ... -insurers/

“As an example, a friend was involved in a very minor bump with another car. The drivers checked the vehicles and agreed that neither vehicle had sustained any damage. Satisfied that there was no harm done, the drivers each went on their way. My friend didn’t report the accident to her insurers: in fact, because of the minor nature of the incident it didn’t even occur to her to do so. Her motor policy was subsequently renewed by her insurers and a few months later she was involved in another, more serious accident, which did cause damage to her vehicle and for which she wished to claim on her policy.

She reported the accident to her insurers and in the course of the conversation with her insurers she was asked if she had been involved in any other accidents. In response to this question my friend told the insurers about the minor bump in which she had been involved a few months earlier. Imagine her shock when the insurers informed her that, as a result of her non-disclosure of the previous accident her policy was void from inception and she was not therefore covered in respect of the damage to her car.”

But ultimately, your life, your risk. It’s just not a risk I would want to take. The whole issue with insurance is that insurers are happy to take your money, then if they need to pay our a much larger claim they have the incentive to comb through the facts looking for reasons to (lawfully) reject it.

[GoSeigen]

The "commonsense threshold" for me is to ask three questions:

1) Is anyone injured?
2) Did the police get involved?
3) Is any party to the incident going to make an insurance claim or take legal action?

If the answer to all three questions is "No" then I would not notify my insurer.

What you do is up to you, but your “commonsense threshold” is neither here nor there. All that matters is what your insurer’s policy wording states.

Actually, that isn't all that matters. That's just a matter of contract law. There is also what statute says and there is common law. ISTM that statute law would determine that a contract issued by an insurance company is non-negotiable and therefore subject to principles of fairness and at least some of Consumer law (I haven't looked up the detail).

So unless you are claiming from some position of knowledge that none of these apply, I think the question is not as simple as you make it out to be. Yes, the contract might be a starting point but case law and statute are relevant.


GS
IANAL

[Lootman]

The "commonsense threshold" for me is to ask three questions:

1) Is anyone injured?
2) Did the police get involved?
3) Is any party to the incident going to make an insurance claim or take legal action?

If the answer to all three questions is "No" then I would not notify my insurer.

you have no way of knowing 3/.

It depends. If no other vehicle was involved then I have a high degree of certainty that no claim will be made unless I make one. That was the case in 2 of the 3 "accidents" that I was involved in.

You also get a good idea from talking to the other driver, if there is one. If they become defensive, accusatory or start taking photos then there is a higher possibility that he may want to go the formal route. If on the other he is reasonable and conciliatory, and/or appears anxious not to involve anyone else (as in the case where the guy bunged me some twenties to make it go away), that is very different.

As BJ said, the intent here is not to report every little scratch and scrape. But rather to use common sense and proportion about what is material and what is trivial.

[stevensfo]

The "commonsense threshold" for me is to ask three questions:

1) Is anyone injured?
2) Did the police get involved?
3) Is any party to the incident going to make an insurance claim or take legal action?

If the answer to all three questions is "No" then I would not notify my insurer.

What you do is up to you, but your “commonsense threshold” is neither here nor there. All that matters is what your insurer’s policy wording states. Of course you could take the view that if the answer to your questions is “No” then there is unlikely to be any evidence of your failure to declare, but that’s different.

I’d also point out that you have no way of knowing 3/. The other party to a little bump with no damage done might log the accident with their insurer with no intent of making any claim, providing your reg number. You don’t do the same. Insurers are very good at sharing information. And then you’re screwed. Knowing how crafty insurers are, they’d probably not even tell you, but just pocket the premium knowing that you’ve gone and voided your insurance by not fessing up. Then if you have a proper accident and maintain you’ve had no accidents, it’s fraud conviction time!

I know you used to work in the City. It feels like you picked up some of the bad old day habits there. If you think you won’t be caught, anything goes. I recall some similar comments about lockdown rules.

Insurers are sharp elbowed when it comes to claims. Best to be fully open with them. Of course if you scrape your own wing mirror on your own garage door, no issues. But any accident you need to report to them.

https://www.beckettandco.co.uk/notifyin ... -insurers/

“As an example, a friend was involved in a very minor bump with another car. The drivers checked the vehicles and agreed that neither vehicle had sustained any damage. Satisfied that there was no harm done, the drivers each went on their way. My friend didn’t report the accident to her insurers: in fact, because of the minor nature of the incident it didn’t even occur to her to do so. Her motor policy was subsequently renewed by her insurers and a few months later she was involved in another, more serious accident, which did cause damage to her vehicle and for which she wished to claim on her policy.

She reported the accident to her insurers and in the course of the conversation with her insurers she was asked if she had been involved in any other accidents. In response to this question my friend told the insurers about the minor bump in which she had been involved a few months earlier. Imagine her shock when the insurers informed her that, as a result of her non-disclosure of the previous accident her policy was void from inception and she was not therefore covered in respect of the damage to her car.”

But ultimately, your life, your risk. It’s just not a risk I would want to take. The whole issue with insurance is that insurers are happy to take your money, then if they need to pay our a much larger claim they have the incentive to comb through the facts looking for reasons to (lawfully) reject it.

Sorry, but I don't agree. There are accidents and there are ACCIDENTS! Over the years, I've had so many minor scrapes that I've lost count. Most times, we both got out of out cars, looked, shrugged and agreed that it's not worth the effort to involve the insurance. Most times it was just bad luck.

I once rented a van to help my sister (nurse) to move to another London flat. I slightly hit a taxi cab in front of me and he jumped out, terrified, because he had only hired the cab to make some money as a taxi driver (1995?). He pointed to the back of his cab and said "Look what you did!"

I squinted, looked carefully and asked "Which one of those dents is mine?" He shrugged and drove off.

But insurance companies will abuse their power to screw everyone they can! They get away with murder!

Also, how do you define an accident?

My ageing mother hit a wheelie bin last year and the cover of her side mirror was knocked off.

They had put their bloody wheelie bin right out into the road. We went back, retrieved the side mirror cover and I stuck it back into place. No harm done.

But should we report it as an accident?

Steve

[Spet0789]

What you do is up to you, but your “commonsense threshold” is neither here nor there. All that matters is what your insurer’s policy wording states.

Actually, that isn't all that matters. That's just a matter of contract law. There is also what statute says and there is common law. ISTM that statute law would determine that a contract issued by an insurance company is non-negotiable and therefore subject to principles of fairness and at least some of Consumer law (I haven't looked up the detail).

So unless you are claiming from some position of knowledge that none of these apply, I think the question is not as simple as you make it out to be. Yes, the contract might be a starting point but case law and statute are relevant.


GS
IANAL

Fair (though pedantic) point! I was taking as a given that the law is relevant to a contract. My point was more that Lootman’s “commonsense threshold” isn’t relevant compared with the wording of the policy (alongside the relevant statutory and common law).

[Spet0789]

What you do is up to you, but your “commonsense threshold” is neither here nor there. All that matters is what your insurer’s policy wording states. Of course you could take the view that if the answer to your questions is “No” then there is unlikely to be any evidence of your failure to declare, but that’s different.

I’d also point out that you have no way of knowing 3/. The other party to a little bump with no damage done might log the accident with their insurer with no intent of making any claim, providing your reg number. You don’t do the same. Insurers are very good at sharing information. And then you’re screwed. Knowing how crafty insurers are, they’d probably not even tell you, but just pocket the premium knowing that you’ve gone and voided your insurance by not fessing up. Then if you have a proper accident and maintain you’ve had no accidents, it’s fraud conviction time!

I know you used to work in the City. It feels like you picked up some of the bad old day habits there. If you think you won’t be caught, anything goes. I recall some similar comments about lockdown rules.

Insurers are sharp elbowed when it comes to claims. Best to be fully open with them. Of course if you scrape your own wing mirror on your own garage door, no issues. But any accident you need to report to them.

https://www.beckettandco.co.uk/notifyin ... -insurers/

“As an example, a friend was involved in a very minor bump with another car. The drivers checked the vehicles and agreed that neither vehicle had sustained any damage. Satisfied that there was no harm done, the drivers each went on their way. My friend didn’t report the accident to her insurers: in fact, because of the minor nature of the incident it didn’t even occur to her to do so. Her motor policy was subsequently renewed by her insurers and a few months later she was involved in another, more serious accident, which did cause damage to her vehicle and for which she wished to claim on her policy.

She reported the accident to her insurers and in the course of the conversation with her insurers she was asked if she had been involved in any other accidents. In response to this question my friend told the insurers about the minor bump in which she had been involved a few months earlier. Imagine her shock when the insurers informed her that, as a result of her non-disclosure of the previous accident her policy was void from inception and she was not therefore covered in respect of the damage to her car.”

But ultimately, your life, your risk. It’s just not a risk I would want to take. The whole issue with insurance is that insurers are happy to take your money, then if they need to pay our a much larger claim they have the incentive to comb through the facts looking for reasons to (lawfully) reject it.

Sorry, but I don't agree. There are accidents and there are ACCIDENTS! Over the years, I've had so many minor scrapes that I've lost count. Most times, we both got out of out cars, looked, shrugged and agreed that it's not worth the effort to involve the insurance. Most times it was just bad luck.

I once rented a van to help my sister (nurse) to move to another London flat. I slightly hit a taxi cab in front of me and he jumped out, terrified, because he had only hired the cab to make some money as a taxi driver (1995?). He pointed to the back of his cab and said "Look what you did!"

I squinted, looked carefully and asked "Which one of those dents is mine?" He shrugged and drove off.

But insurance companies will abuse their power to screw everyone they can! They get away with murder!

Also, how do you define an accident?

My ageing mother hit a wheelie bin last year and the cover of her side mirror was knocked off.

They had put their bloody wheelie bin right out into the road. We went back, retrieved the side mirror cover and I stuck it back into place. No harm done.

But should we report it as an accident?

Steve

I fully agree with your point on insurance companies. The wheelie bin incident may not pass the test but if you hit another car, that’s an accident whether a claim is made or not.

[Lootman]

Actually, that isn't all that matters. That's just a matter of contract law. There is also what statute says and there is common law. ISTM that statute law would determine that a contract issued by an insurance company is non-negotiable and therefore subject to principles of fairness and at least some of Consumer law (I haven't looked up the detail).

So unless you are claiming from some position of knowledge that none of these apply, I think the question is not as simple as you make it out to be. Yes, the contract might be a starting point but case law and statute are relevant.

Fair (though pedantic) point! I was taking as a given that the law is relevant to a contract. My point was more that Lootman’s “commonsense threshold” isn’t relevant compared with the wording of the policy (alongside the relevant statutory and common law).

No, actually it was bungeejumper who introduced the concept of how there must be a “commonsense threshold” for the reporting of accidents. I merely offered one interpretation (the 3 questions checklist) of how that might be determined in practice. You or others may adopt an alternative approach but the basic idea is simple enough: Not all accidents rise to the level of what would be considered reasonable to report.

And as GS notes it is ultimately a court that would decide if any such policy wording applies or not. In fact insurers are often dragged through the courts when they try and hide behind self-serving technicalities in their policies, and often end up having to pay out larger claims as a result of judges and juries looking more at what is fair and reasonable.

I suspect that 99% of drivers do not report parking scratches/scrapes and similar. So if you do then you are really inviting your insurer to conclude that you are a high-risk driver when in fact you may not be.

if you hit another car, that’s an accident whether a claim is made or not.

So hitting another car is an "accident" but hitting a tree or wall is not? Got a source for that?

[Spet0789]

Fair (though pedantic) point! I was taking as a given that the law is relevant to a contract. My point was more that Lootman’s “commonsense threshold” isn’t relevant compared with the wording of the policy (alongside the relevant statutory and common law).

No, actually it was bungeejumper who introduced the concept of how there must be a “commonsense threshold” for the reporting of accidents. I merely offered one interpretation (the 3 questions checklist) of how that might be determined in practice. You or others may adopt an alternative approach but the basic idea is simple enough: Not all accidents rise to the level of what would be considered reasonable to report.

And as GS notes it is ultimately a court that would decide if any such policy wording applies or not. In fact insurers are often dragged through the courts when they try and hide behind self-serving technicalities in their policies, and often end up having to pay out larger claims as a result of judges and juries looking more at what is fair and reasonable.

I suspect that 99% of drivers do not report parking scratches/scrapes and similar. So if you do then you are really inviting your insurer to conclude that you are a high-risk driver when in fact you may not be.

if you hit another car, that’s an accident whether a claim is made or not.

So hitting another car is an "accident" but hitting a tree or wall is not? Got a source for that?

Your last comment is truly odd. I didn’t suggest that the only way to have an accident was to hit another car.

I posted a link from a law firm earlier with some examples of how this point would likely be applied.

You’re a grown up. You’re entirely free to decide which accidents you tell your insurer about. And then you’re entirely free to take them to court if they void your policy. Just make sure to tell the court the truth. I don’t much like insurance companies so I will be cheering you on. Personally I think it’s less work to be transparent but each to his or her own.

[Lootman]

So hitting another car is an "accident" but hitting a tree or wall is not? Got a source for that?

I didn’t suggest that the only way to have an accident was to hit another car.

As a couple of us have already stated, a scratch or scrape on another car typically does not rise to the level of an accident. But my car demolishing your wall or running over your granny does. So the issue of more than one car being involved is moot.

Rather it is the overall seriousness of the accident that is relevant and I have already identified some key indicators of that e.g. injury to a person or animal, police were called, non-trivial vehicle or property damage, and so on.

In other words. as with most things, do not be over-literal but rather use your judgement and common sense to decide what is and is not reasonable to report.

[Spet0789]

I didn’t suggest that the only way to have an accident was to hit another car.

As a couple of us have already stated, a scratch or scrape on another car typically does not rise to the level of an accident. But my car demolishing your wall or running over your granny does. So the issue of more than one car being involved is moot.

Rather it is the overall seriousness of the accident that is relevant and I have already identified some key indicators of that e.g. injury to a person or animal, police were called, non-trivial vehicle or property damage, and so on.

In other words. as with most things, do not be over-literal but rather use your judgement and common sense to decide what is and is not reasonable to report.

Good luck with your approach! Personally if I ever came in contact with another vehicle and caused damage, I would tell my insurer. But it’s not happened yet.

[didds]

The other side of the cynical attitude towards insurers is that my sister recently got an entire carpet replaced by her insurers for a spill of some red wine in an obscure corner of it. Quite nonsensical but it is easier and cheaper for the insurers to pay up than to send someone out to check out the claim.

indeed.

anecdote #1
We were burgled twenty years ago or so now (blimey!). Two old laptops, two point and click mobile phones with a handful of months remaining on the contracts.

When informing my insurers I said 2nd hand value for the laptops would be acceptable, as (then) we only bothered with 2nd hand laptops (its my job pretty much to refurb and refit etc so can make them work fine etc), and ditto the cheapy mobiles and just the very low amounts of remaining contracts.

they insisted they couldn't entertain that, and so coughed for two brand new laptops, two new phones and contracts.

So i got two 2nd hand laptops, two 2nd hand point and click phones, and paid off the old contracts, and pocketed the rest.

anecdote #2
Wed bought a 2nd hand greenhouse off somebody, and hadn't a couple of weeks later got around to -putting it up yet. We had a bad storm. Although stacked carefully etc nonetheless the frame and glass got bent, and smashed.
When i claimed for weather damage for the value of a 2nd hand GH the insurers said they would have to send an assessor around . Assessor duly arrived, took one look at the mangled mess, and Ok'd the provision of a BRAND NEW GH WITH FITTING. £850 or so rather than maybe £150 for another 2nd hand one.

never makes any sense to me.

[Dod101]

The other side of the cynical attitude towards insurers is that my sister recently got an entire carpet replaced by her insurers for a spill of some red wine in an obscure corner of it. Quite nonsensical but it is easier and cheaper for the insurers to pay up than to send someone out to check out the claim.

indeed.

anecdote #1
We were burgled twenty years ago or so now (blimey!). Two old laptops, two point and click mobile phones with a handful of months remaining on the contracts.

When informing my insurers I said 2nd hand value for the laptops would be acceptable, as (then) we only bothered with 2nd hand laptops (its my job pretty much to refurb and refit etc so can make them work fine etc), and ditto the cheapy mobiles and just the very low amounts of remaining contracts.

they insisted they couldn't entertain that, and so coughed for two brand new laptops, two new phones and contracts.

So i got two 2nd hand laptops, two 2nd hand point and click phones, and paid off the old contracts, and pocketed the rest.

anecdote #2
Wed bought a 2nd hand greenhouse off somebody, and hadn't a couple of weeks later got around to -putting it up yet. We had a bad storm. Although stacked carefully etc nonetheless the frame and glass got bent, and smashed.
When i claimed for weather damage for the value of a 2nd hand GH the insurers said they would have to send an assessor around . Assessor duly arrived, took one look at the mangled mess, and Ok'd the provision of a BRAND NEW GH WITH FITTING. £850 or so rather than maybe £150 for another 2nd hand one.

never makes any sense to me.

When I started as a trainee in a local insurance office, I used to be sent out to take a look at damage caused by sparks from an open fire and got the job of agreeing a settlement. Deductions from new were always made for 'betterment' as we called it, so as to put the insured in the same financial position as they were before the damage. That was a non negotiable principle. Then of course came reinstatement as new, sometimes costing extra. The business seems to be rife at certain levels nowadays with fraudulent claims, as I would see them anyway, but sanctioned by the insurers, backed up by your experience

An oak branch jumped out and hit my car a week or so ago, causing some damage which is now being repaired. I phoned the local Council and they sent out a squad to cut it back. Another motorist had his wing mirror damaged from the same tree and said he is claiming from the Council so I have completed a claim form for my uninsured excess. I cannot see why they would pay though since they were not negligent. They knew nothing about the tree until I told them. I was preparing to have a go at the owner of the tree, a local estate, but we'll see what happens.

Dod

[stewamax]

The best medicine would simply be: “You vandalised it, so now you fix it – properly, and you live in this spartan bootcamp 5am-reveille accommodation until you do”. Having to painstakingly restore to original condition the results of mindless idiocy would provide food for thought when the next ‘opportunity’ occurs.

I once had some midnight revellers destroy a length of my garden’s picket fence by competing to jump over it (so says a neighbour – I was asleep). Their retribution was instant as the place they landed on was a mature low-growing pyracantha that I imagine was like landing on broken glass.