The Lemon Fool

While I can agree with a lot of what mc says - my one underlying question remains - "why on a Saturday?"

For a non-urgent item you'd expect someone to come out during the week - getting someone out at a weekend is not run of the mill advice/quote provision - it's a charge-able event of itself.

the0ni0nking wrote:While I can agree with a lot of what mc says - my one underlying question remains - "why on a Saturday?"

For a non-urgent item you'd expect someone to come out during the week - getting someone out at a weekend is not run of the mill advice/quote provision - it's a charge-able event of itself.

I'd agree with that but I'd still expect it to be made clear up front. If it'd been me and Chris hadn't specified it during the call I'd have asked. After all, without up front agreement both sides can claim anything afterwards....

mc2fool wrote:Well Chris, I'm going to take a bit of a different view to the other replies...

On the general question of "is advice work?" I think it depends on context. When I get tradesmen round to look at something, either for myself or for the self-managed (mostly me) block of flats I live in, it's almost always on a come round, look, discuss and quote basis and I would never expect to pay a call out fee for that, and never have. Any advice offered during the visit is part of the pre-sales discussion.

I would differentiate between Chris's call-out to address a specific thing, and a general visit to quote for potentially extensive works.

As regards the call-out fee... credit card??.. complexification... what happened to cash??

V8

88V8 wrote:

mc2fool wrote:Well Chris, I'm going to take a bit of a different view to the other replies...

On the general question of "is advice work?" I think it depends on context. When I get tradesmen round to look at something, either for myself or for the self-managed (mostly me) block of flats I live in, it's almost always on a come round, look, discuss and quote basis and I would never expect to pay a call out fee for that, and never have. Any advice offered during the visit is part of the pre-sales discussion.

I would differentiate between Chris's call-out to address a specific thing, and a general visit to quote for potentially extensive works.

I wouldn't, and the size of works is, IMO, irrelevant. The differentiator for me is how it was expressed and what was agreed. You can still ask someone to come out, look at and quote for a specific thing, even a relatively small one, as you can also make it an "emergency, please fix it today" request. It's a matter of clear communication and agreement.

If Chris didn't make it clear that there'd be a call out fee up front then, no matter how much we might all agree that he deserved one, the client can simply say that they didn't agree to one and Chris doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

I haven't read the entire thread but a couple of things spring to mind...

1) IF having turned out it was something every simple that you could in situ and immediately that WOULD have been work and the £20 (plus items costs or whatever) would be due

2) if you cant charge for "the advice", but do get the subsequent job anyway, that job has just become £40 dearer than it would have otherwise been...

DrFfybes wrote:Wish her luck in her future endeavours, especially those involving electrical work.

I did that.

DrFfybes wrote:Then block her number.

I'll do that after my reminder is sent next week.

DrFfybes wrote:She has come to you out of the blue? She must have a whole raft of tradesmen she uses, or rather she should have. Perhaps she's upset so many she's running down the phonebook. Either way you can move on, and she might just come slightly closer to realising what sort of 'businesswoman' she actually is.

No I was recommended to by one of her employees. C.

mc2fool wrote:Well Chris, I'm going to take a bit of a different view to the other replies...

What I read from your OP is that you didn't tell her how much your call out fee would be up front, on the phone when she called. If you had and she'd said OK then there wouldn't be an issue. You also obviously didn't say anything about it when you were there, so it's not surprising that she's a bit put out at the first mention of money being some three weeks later.

Also, I am surprised that, also at three weeks later, you were "asking her, quite nicely, what exactly we had agreed going forwards". So you don't know/remember what was agreed? Or it wasn't clear what was agreed? I take it this also means that you hadn't already given her a quote, either on the spot or in a soon-after follow-up for fixing the problems?

On the general question of "is advice work?" I think it depends on context. When I get tradesmen round to look at something, either for myself or for the self-managed (mostly me) block of flats I live in, it's almost always on a come round, look, discuss and quote basis and I would never expect to pay a call out fee for that, and never have. Any advice offered during the visit is part of the pre-sales discussion.

Now I do get that from your perspective this wasn't a come-out-and-quote visit, and if she was calling you out on a please-come-and-fix-it-now basis then maybe she should have expected a call out fee, but, hey, it's your time and I think your responsibility to make fees clear up front.

In regards to this particular situation and this lady, depending on how you feel about it and her (and the possibilities or not of future business from her), I'd either write off the £20 to experience and never deal with her again or apologise to her that you didn't make the call out fee clear up front and tell her that as you didn't specify it you'll waive it this time and give her a quote for returning to fix the issues (which you may choose to inflate by £20 ), and if she doesn't employ you to do that just shrug it off.

Oh, and I do agree that you have a very cheap call out rate!

Just as a small detail, I don't have a call-out fee. (This year) I just charge £41.68p per hour (half-of-travel time, no minimum, and a day rate, for full days). I have done three jobs for her before so she knows my rates and that I send a bill afterwards. The three weeks is an issue because it is longer that I like to leave it - I was just very busy.

I knew that what I had advised was just a diagnosis + workaround but forgot whether she was happy to leave it at that or if she wanted me to return with a new fitting (and tall ladder). I was just very busy with lots of detail on lots of jobs and forgot what we had concluded.

Well if someone calls me out urgently on a Saturday evening to fix some things and I get them going but also advise what would be needed to do the job properly (which I couldn't do on the spot) then I differentiate between that and looking at a job (usually at my request) before doing some work at a future date. Clearly she doesn't.

I have already told her that I didn't like her tone and so have no more interest in helping her with her electrical issues. I suggested she finds someone else so I have rather burnt my bridges. I don't really care whether she pays or not. She had the opportunity to answer my question, i.e. to say yes, we agreed you'd replace the light fitting. Had she done that I might well have waived the time for first visit anyway - that would also be typical.

Anyway I have far more miserable things going on, e.g. my two youngest children have stopped having anything to do with me, which is incredibly painful. The youngest hasn't offered any kind of explanation for 13 years and my middle child has blamed his mother's suicide on me even though it was years after she divorced me (for which she also didn't offer an explanation). He explained this last year and suddenly cut off all contact. So in the grand scheme of things my not getting £20 for half an hour of a Saturday evening call-out only needs a small amount of comforting. Maybe this is on the wrong board ?

csearle wrote:Just as a small detail, I don't have a call-out fee. (This year) I just charge £41.68p per hour (half-of-travel time, no minimum, and a day rate, for full days). I have done three jobs for her before so she knows my rates and that I send a bill afterwards.

Ah, ok. The way the OP was phrased it sounded like you did have a call out fee, and I see I wasn't the only one posting that thought that. Given that she already knew your rates and the nature of the call out I take back most of what I said, although nevertheless I still think it's worth repeating what you'll charge with even the most regular customer before setting out.

I also think that your headline question is besides the point; on an emergency call out it doesn't matter if you "did" anything or not, or gave advice or not; the charge is for your time. Even if you'd got there and found there was no problem and nothing to do. But as always, up front clarity is key.

csearle wrote:Anyway I have far more miserable things going on...

I'm really sorry to read that Chris. I do commiserate.

mc2fool wrote:

csearle wrote:Anyway I have far more miserable things going on...

I'm really sorry to read that Chris. I do commiserate.

Seconded.

Sounds like a job for the Small Claims track.
And when she consults her solicitor for advice as to settle or litigate, I wonder whether he/she will bill her...

As you say, it is only twenty quid, so it isn't going to bankrupt you, and as you also say, you have burnt your brdges with the woman. However, if you wanted a bit of fun, you could send her a letter before action (proforma on Internet), just to wind her up. If you wanted a bit more fun, you could add a charge for the letter/postage.

Bminusrob wrote:As you say, it is only twenty quid, so it isn't going to bankrupt you, and as you also say, you have burnt your brdges with the woman. However, if you wanted a bit of fun, you could send her a letter before action (proforma on Internet), just to wind her up. If you wanted a bit more fun, you could add a charge for the letter/postage.

Well if we're having fun fill in this https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... b34/N1.pdf and forward it.
Pretty sure it's the form a court would send to the defendant but of course isn't valid if you just knock one up yourself as needs to be issued by the courts. She might pay a solicitor to tell her it's spurious or bung the £20. Perhaps it's an offence to try it on though. Certainly a good wind up but I have a cruel streak.

Tell the old bag your service includes "what you know" and not just what you do. Which of course is true.
Leo

Leothebear wrote:Tell the old bag your service includes "what you know" and not just what you do. Which of course is true.
Leo

Well over 40 years ago, my late father was a self-employed plumber. One of the standard jokes at the time was when a plumber was asked to fix a broken boiler. The customer watched him from arrival to departure some five minutes later having fixed the boiler with a sharp hit with a hammer. When he received a bill for £100, the customer asked for an itemised bill, which duly arrived:

To: Hitting with hammer £0.50
To: Knowing where to hit £99.50

Just to wrap this up. The lady has settled her bill. So I will leave it at that. Someone else can attend her weekend emergencies. C.

csearle wrote:Someone else can attend her weekend emergencies. C.

This. 100%.

I'm glad its resolved for you.

csearle wrote:Just to wrap this up. The lady has settled her bill. So I will leave it at that. Someone else can attend her weekend emergencies. C.

Always good to know the outcome so that all of us - myself included - who jumped to a sledgehammer approach can politely recoil reflecting on how unnecessary our solutions were!

One last point:

You undercharged her.