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HMRC Self Assessment Query

Practical Issues
tractorian
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HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445417

Postby tractorian » September 26th, 2021, 1:34 pm

There are two inputs:

The first is an NHS Pension showing income and tax deducted. These figures appear in the system automatically.

The second, entered on-line, comprises state pension, dividends, and some bank interest. There are also gift-aided donations.

The subsequent calculation seems to completely ignore the first input,and shows an entry, “Tax due on Gift Aid payments” and charges accordingly.

I understood that if sufficient tax was paid elsewhere, more than covering the gift aided tax, then this rule did not apply.

Can anyone confirm if this is the case?

mc2fool
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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445419

Postby mc2fool » September 26th, 2021, 2:01 pm

tractorian wrote:There are two inputs:

The first is an NHS Pension showing income and tax deducted. These figures appear in the system automatically.

The second, entered on-line, comprises state pension, dividends, and some bank interest. There are also gift-aided donations.

The subsequent calculation seems to completely ignore the first input...

Sorry, but what do you mean by that? When you get to the View your calculation page does it not include the gross NHS Pension in the table of income that ends with the sum "Total income received"?

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445420

Postby XFool » September 26th, 2021, 2:24 pm

tractorian wrote:There are two inputs:

The first is an NHS Pension showing income and tax deducted. These figures appear in the system automatically.

The second, entered on-line, comprises state pension, dividends, and some bank interest.

My only comment would be that state pension payments also normally appear in the system automatically, as they are obviously known to the DWP.

tractorian wrote:The subsequent calculation seems to completely ignore the first input,and shows an entry, “Tax due on Gift Aid payments” and charges accordingly.

Surely something wrong here. You don't pay income tax on outgoings.

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445423

Postby Alaric » September 26th, 2021, 2:34 pm

XFool wrote:Surely something wrong here. You don't pay income tax on outgoings.


You are only supposed to sign for Gift Aid if a taxpayer. Does their online system than check whether the income is below the personal allowance and if Gift Aid payments are declared, then claw back the rebate which would have gone to the Gift Aid recipient?

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445442

Postby Gengulphus » September 26th, 2021, 5:07 pm

Alaric wrote:
XFool wrote:Surely something wrong here. You don't pay income tax on outgoings.

You are only supposed to sign for Gift Aid if a taxpayer. Does their online system than check whether the income is below the personal allowance and if Gift Aid payments are declared, then claw back the rebate which would have gone to the Gift Aid recipient?

Hmm... HMRC's Gift Aid declaration declares "I am a UK taxpayer and understand that if I pay less Income Tax and/or Capital Gains Tax in the current tax year than the amount of Gift Aid claimed on all my donations it is my responsibility to pay any difference." (that's for a single donation - the wording is slightly different for other versions). The straightforward part of that is that you're committing to paying enough tax to cover the Gift Aid claims by charities even if your normal tax calculation wouldn't result in that much tax - and HMRC's tax calculations do increase tax bills where that commitment applies (for the paper tax return, that stage of the tax calculation can be seen on page TCSN 18 of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... nline.pdf; I know from personal experience that the online version does something similar, but cannot supply a link...).

The less straightforward part is the bit about being a UK taxpayer - what exactly is the definition of a UK taxpayer? If e.g. someone is expecting to have enough income from their investments to have to pay tax on it, and then companies collapse, the anticipated income doesn't materialise and they end up without enough income to pay tax on it, are they a UK taxpayer or not?

My guess is that the main purpose of that part of the declaration is basically to ensure that HMRC can justify sending you a tax return if they want to - you've declared that you're a UK taxpayer, they're just taking you at your word... To what extent their systems check whether people who make Gift Aid declarations actually are in their systems as UK taxpayers, I don't know - but it's probably a matter of checking particularly large donations and random spot checks on smaller ones.

Gengulphus

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445448

Postby Alaric » September 26th, 2021, 5:29 pm

Gengulphus wrote:To what extent their systems check whether people who make Gift Aid declarations actually are in their systems as UK taxpayers, I don't know - but it's probably a matter of checking particularly large donations and random spot checks on smaller ones.


The other side of the check would be that those who are UK tax payers, but very low payers have actually declared Gift Aid payments on a Tax Return. For most basic rate taxpayers, it makes no difference to their tax liability whether they declare Gift Aid payments or not.

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445519

Postby tractorian » September 27th, 2021, 9:11 am

To fill in some (approximate) numbers:

The NHS Pension amount is £41k with £8k tax paid. Dividends are about £8k, OAP about £7k, bank Interest £40 and gift aid about £8k.

The caculation shows:

Interest from banks 400

Dividends 8,000

UK Pensions 7,000

Total Income received 15,400

Personal Allowance 12,500

Total income on which tax is due 2,900

Then, after a couple of lines dealing with tax on bank interest and dividends, appears:

Tax due on Gift Aid payments £8k @ 20% = £1,600

The figures are for a retired GP. Perhaps there is some 'self-employed' complication?

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445521

Postby scrumpyjack » September 27th, 2021, 9:23 am

It obviously is not picking up your GP pension and tax paid on it. Are you sure you have entered it in the right boxes?

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445550

Postby tractorian » September 27th, 2021, 11:05 am

If you mean the GP Pension, that is already in the system and can only be accessed to enquire on.

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445557

Postby tractorian » September 27th, 2021, 11:40 am

and, (for some reason the system won't allow me to edit the previous post), from my own experience (I am not the GP so please don't send me details of your ailments) the tax against the NHS Pension will include a figure to cover the tax on the OAP.

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445573

Postby kiloran » September 27th, 2021, 12:35 pm

tractorian wrote:and, (for some reason the system won't allow me to edit the previous post),

TLF wisely restricts editing a post to a 10-15 minute period after sending the post. After that, changes are not possible.

--kiloran

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445581

Postby mc2fool » September 27th, 2021, 12:56 pm

tractorian wrote:If you mean the GP Pension, that is already in the system and can only be accessed to enquire on.

Ok, but the question is, why isn't it being included in the calculation? And, of course, why isn't the tax withheld on that figured in, and counted against the gift aid?

I suggest that you'd be better off looking/asking in the HMRC forums, where people that actually work for HMRC reply to the queries.

https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445583

Postby Alaric » September 27th, 2021, 1:01 pm

mc2fool wrote:Ok, but the question is, why isn't it being included in the calculation? And, of course, why isn't the tax withheld on that figured in, and counted against the gift aid?

I suggest that you'd be better off looking/asking in the HMRC forums, where people that actually work for HMRC reply to the queries.


It would seem clear enough that the HMRC software is bugged and thus not fit for purpose for this particular tax return.

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445594

Postby bluedonkey » September 27th, 2021, 1:28 pm

Some data, sometimes all data, has to be entered when completing the SA return using HMRC online. Have you checked that the NHS pension and PAYE data is present in the return? If not, you need to enter it from the P60 figures. Ditto State pension.

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445779

Postby tractorian » September 28th, 2021, 7:52 am

bluedonkey asks "Some data, sometimes all data, has to be entered when completing the SA return using HMRC online. Have you checked that the NHS pension and PAYE data is present in the return? If not, you need to enter it from the P60 figures. Ditto State pension."

These numbers are already in the system and, as far as I can remember, are not prompted for.

mc2foool: Thank you for that link, I will raise the matter over there.

P.S. How does one copy a post to which one wishes to respond?

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445801

Postby bluedonkey » September 28th, 2021, 9:06 am

The figures might be "in the system" but they don't appear to be in the tax return!

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#445826

Postby Gengulphus » September 28th, 2021, 9:54 am

tractorian wrote:P.S. How does one copy a post to which one wishes to respond?

I've replied here.

Gengulphus

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#446109

Postby tractorian » September 28th, 2021, 9:23 pm

Through poking around HMRC's Self Assessment website I discovered that you do in fact have to enter your Pension figures into the assessment, although they do already have them. However, you do not have to input your OAP figures, they do pick these up for themselves for the calculation.

Finally, in putting this to bed, I would like to thank all of you who tried to help me on this. The fat lady is singing again!

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#446136

Postby pochisoldi » September 28th, 2021, 11:23 pm

bluedonkey wrote:The figures might be "in the system" but they don't appear to be in the tax return!


I have one employment - the figures appear in my "account".
The only figures that appear in my tax return are those that I enter myself.
The "online account" is a waste of time - get paid a bonus and the figures go awry.
If I want an estimate of tax due, I use my own spreadsheet.
When I do my tax return, I (have to) use my own figures...

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Re: HMRC Self Assessment Query

#446424

Postby bluedonkey » September 29th, 2021, 8:40 pm

pochisoldi wrote:
bluedonkey wrote:The figures might be "in the system" but they don't appear to be in the tax return!


I have one employment - the figures appear in my "account".
The only figures that appear in my tax return are those that I enter myself.
The "online account" is a waste of time - get paid a bonus and the figures go awry.
If I want an estimate of tax due, I use my own spreadsheet.
When I do my tax return, I (have to) use my own figures...

Oh I see, I misunderstood. I thought you were querying your self assessment tax return.


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