Gov.UK Verify decommissioned

[ursaminortaur]

I didn't say anything about anyone being a persona non grata. I simply said that electoral roll registration is a primary factor in electronic ID verification, and not having that almost always requires you do provide paper ID instead, as you have confirmed. You may consider that an OK cost, I understand that. I consider it a p.i.t.a. and am glad not to have had to do so for very many years.

P.S. You may not be a persona non grata, but in not having registered to vote you are, of course, a criminal. I think you knew that already.

Fair enough. Interestingly Paypal signed me up without any ID checks or verification. Perhaps they get away with it because they are not holding or lending funds, but merely acting as a conduit for funds.

Actually I thought that not being on the voting register was a civil infraction rather than criminal, leading to a statutory fine rather than a criminal prosecution. Although giving false information on the form can lead to a prison term. In any case it would appear not to be enforced by my local authority.

I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for not being on it. Likewise, people who put their name on the electoral register but no longer live there are probably unlikely to have problems unless they actually vote.

It happens though the council will make repeated attempts to contact the person before resorting to taking them to court see this from 2012

https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/pair-fined-refusing-sign-up-4200256

A man and woman have become the first people in Wokingham borough to be prosecuted for not filling out and returning their annual canvass forms for the 2011/12 Register of Electors.

“By law, we have to take certain steps to obtain the canvass form from households. If occupiers do not return the initial form they receive by post, we have to send a personal canvasser to call at the property on more than one occasion.

“This incurs cost, which ultimately comes out of council tax.

“If someone does not return their form, then it’s their neighbours that have to share the cost and this, we feel, is not fair.

Ah but that is a bit different. They were refusing to complete and return the form.

In the case I mentioned the form was completed and returned. It was just missing a name.

It would be relatively easy to check that an address had no associated form returned. Much harder to know that a resident of that address had been omitted.

How did you persuade someone to falsely fill out the details on the form, leaving you off it, and get them to sign that form ?

[stevensfo]

Fair enough. Interestingly Paypal signed me up without any ID checks or verification. Perhaps they get away with it because they are not holding or lending funds, but merely acting as a conduit for funds.

Actually I thought that not being on the voting register was a civil infraction rather than criminal, leading to a statutory fine rather than a criminal prosecution. Although giving false information on the form can lead to a prison term. In any case it would appear not to be enforced by my local authority.

I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for not being on it. Likewise, people who put their name on the electoral register but no longer live there are probably unlikely to have problems unless they actually vote.

It happens though the council will make repeated attempts to contact the person before resorting to taking them to court see this from 2012

https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/pair-fined-refusing-sign-up-4200256

A man and woman have become the first people in Wokingham borough to be prosecuted for not filling out and returning their annual canvass forms for the 2011/12 Register of Electors.

“By law, we have to take certain steps to obtain the canvass form from households. If occupiers do not return the initial form they receive by post, we have to send a personal canvasser to call at the property on more than one occasion.

“This incurs cost, which ultimately comes out of council tax.

“If someone does not return their form, then it’s their neighbours that have to share the cost and this, we feel, is not fair.

Ah but that is a bit different. They were refusing to complete and return the form.

In the case I mentioned the form was completed and returned. It was just missing a name.

It would be relatively easy to check that an address had no associated form returned. Much harder to know that a resident of that address had been omitted.

How did you persuade someone to falsely fill out the details on the form, leaving you off it, and get them to sign that form ?

But how could the local authorities prove that a particular person was definitely living there when the form was filled in. The case cited re. prosecution was a clear and simple case of the residents refusing to send the form back.
I'm sure that the local authorities have quite enough to do and I imagine that, rather like council tax,they're happy to have an address and one or two names.

Steve

[chas49]

Actually I thought that not being on the voting register was a civil infraction rather than criminal, leading to a statutory fine rather than a criminal prosecution. Although giving false information on the form can lead to a prison term. In any case it would appear not to be enforced by my local authority.

It is a civil matter rather than criminal:

Representation of the People Act 1983 section 9E (inserted by Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 section 5)

(1)A registration officer in Great Britain must give a person an invitation to apply for registration in a register maintained by the officer if—
(a)the officer is aware of the person's name and address,
(b)the person is not registered in the register, and
(c)the officer has reason to believe that the person may be entitled to be registered in the register.

....

(4)A registration officer who gives a person an invitation under subsection (1) may subsequently require the person to make an application for registration by a specified date.

....

9E(7) A registration officer may impose a civil penalty on a person who fails to comply with a requirement imposed by the officer under subsection (4).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2/section/9E

[RockRabbit]

Actually I thought that not being on the voting register was a civil infraction rather than criminal, leading to a statutory fine rather than a criminal prosecution. Although giving false information on the form can lead to a prison term. In any case it would appear not to be enforced by my local authority.

It is a civil matter rather than criminal:

Representation of the People Act 1983 section 9E (inserted by Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 section 5)

(1)A registration officer in Great Britain must give a person an invitation to apply for registration in a register maintained by the officer if—
(a)the officer is aware of the person's name and address,
(b)the person is not registered in the register, and
(c)the officer has reason to believe that the person may be entitled to be registered in the register.

....

(4)A registration officer who gives a person an invitation under subsection (1) may subsequently require the person to make an application for registration by a specified date.

....

9E(7) A registration officer may impose a civil penalty on a person who fails to comply with a requirement imposed by the officer under subsection (4).

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2/section/9E

There are both criminal and civil penalties. Knowingly providing false information (ie knowingly missing someone off the electoral roll registration form has a maximum penalty of 6 months imprisonment (although I have never heard of anyone going to prison for this).

https://researchbriefings.files.parliam ... N06940.pdf

[Lootman]

How did you persuade someone to falsely fill out the details on the form, leaving you off it, and get them to sign that form ?

A better question might be how would you convince that person that the council has any genuine need for the information? Why do we force people to register to vote even if they have no intention of voting? And how would you be convinced to include my identity if it is my express desire not to be included for privacy reasons?

There is another form the council sends out annually, for the purpose of council tax, which also asks the identities of those living there. But again it is hard to see why such information should be given, let alone twice. The council tax to be paid does not depend on the number of adult residents, other than that a discount is available if the occupant lives alone.

The council can probably make a case that they need to know the general population numbers within its area, but that can be obtained from census information without any need to compromise individual identity and privacy.

So in either case, on what principle does the council believe it is entitled to know who lives somewhere? That would be the question a higher court would have to decide if someone was fined by the council and appealed the ruling. But there have been so few such cases that such an appeal has probably never happened.

Other similar countries do not demand such information. If the need is real, then how do those other countries manage without it?

[XFool]

Update article. TLDR HMRC not handling it well. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/ ... e-accounts

I know, John, you (and others) have had specific problems in the past logging on to HMRC. But I still find this whole topic more than a little difficult to get my head round - is it being entirely accurately reported?

HMRC locks out taxpayers from their online accounts

The Guardian

Tax service unexpectedly scraps use of Verify scheme that confirmed a person’s identity – without a backup plan

Surely the "backup plan" is the original Government Gateway account? Still working fine for me - no problems here logging in to HMRC.

"The aim was to sign up 25 million users by the end of 2020. However, HMRC developed a rival authentication system in 2017 and, last year, the Cabinet Office announced its flagship system would close in April 2023."

"The 2023 deadline announced by the Cabinet Office was to allow time for an alternative system to be developed, but HMRC appears to have ditched Verify without a back-up plan."

To recap: HMRC originally introduced the Personal Digital Account using GOV.UK Verify to log on - which at the time I and others found we couldn't use. Then, about a year later (if I remember correctly) they additionally introduced logon using GG account credentials (which I already had), but you had to first register this with HMRC by phone - I think your NI number and details from your latest P60 were used. From then on, no problems.

I guess registering for a GG account may be different now to the old paper based system I used, and also registering this with HMRC - possibly now an all in one process? Reading the Guardian article, one stumbling block is being unable to use a UK mainland driving licence. Then again, with my GG/HMRC registration I didn't need either a driving licence or a passport.

Joined up government, anybody?

[JohnB]

Mum was locked out of her gov gateway account after being trusted to use it for years. It required her to revalidate with id she did not have.

[Bouleversee]

On the substantive point, I have used the Government Gateway service for years and once it is set up it is very simple to access. I have no idea why the OP or the Guardian correspondent are getting so uptight about it.

Incidentally it is not just self employed citizens who are affected it is people like me (many of us here no doubt) who have to file a tax return each year. But as I say, very straightforward.
Dod

I used Govt, Gateway for a few years, too, and found it much easier and quicker than a paper return and I knew what my tax situation was straightaway. Then, when signing on to do my 2019-2020 return I got the security code, entered it and logged on, only to be asked to complete the idiotic extra security questions which were mentioned on here earlier and which few old people will be able to do. I no longer have a valid passport and possibly never will again, I don't have an N. Irish driving licence and it's not my fault that DVLA can't cope with questions about my UK one, which I managed to renew on line in a couple of days not long ago; I get P.60s from the insurance companies who provide my annuities but since I am not employed by them am not allowed to answer questions about those (though the paper form gives code for one of them and describes it as my employer!). I had to do a paper return last year and said I hoped the idiotic situation would be sorted in time for me to do my 2020-2021 return; needless to say it has not. The person handling my complaint suggested I try contacting a certain credit reference agency, though I don't have any debts and am not sure where that would get me. However, I tried but couldn't log on with them either so back to doing a paper return again this year. They sent me photocopies of the forms and it is all quite different from what they used to be. I literally stayed up all last night filling it in. I don't know what they will make of my efforts; I just sent a list of my share disposals, showing individual profits and the total net gain and the small taxable amount left after the allowances and asked them to deduct it from my c/f losses. I doubt if their system will facilitate scanning of that.

I had been sent a letter earlier informing me that I didn't need to send a return which I don't understand since it looks to me as though I owe some income tax as well, despite interest and dividends having gone down quite a lot. I had been hoping I might be due a refund. Either way, if one has savings and investments outside ISAs, I don't see how they can know who owes who what without a return being submitted. I think quite a lot of old people have been told they no longer need to do a return and the reason the Govt. Gateway comes up with those questions is because it is not set up to receive their accounts. There was a hint at that in one of the complaint responses. It occurs to me that someone has decided that the amount of tax some oldies are likely to have to pay on top of what is deducted from pensions and annuities is so little, it is cheaper to tell them not to bother sending a return. I have quite significant c/f losses so they think I am unlikely ever to have to pay cgt for instance. Another thing the complaints woman said was that everybody now has to answer these extra questions to stop fraudsters but I don't personally know anyone else who does and I think all those mentioned on here are old people, mostly women, including my late sister who still hadn't submitted her return for 2018-19 by the time she died in January, having picked up Covid in hospital after being admitted with what I think was probably a stress induced exacerbation of her MS. I thought of her last night! I can't see any logic in it; it's just a system designed by idiots. I don't want to do another paper return (go online and see what it looks like and how they tell you how to calculate your tax, which would take ages) but I really don't see anything changing unless enough of us start making a fuss, especially since all the way through filling in the paper return and looking at the notes, we are encouraged to file online. I sent my return by special delivery, which was expensive, to guarantee it would arrive tomorrow which is the deadline. What's the betting it doesn't? The Post Office seems to work at snail's pace now as well.

A final point which I find curious. A week ago I received 2 letters from Phoenix saying that my monthly annuity payments had been reduced, a bit odd since they are fixed rate policies, but the tax code covers the tax on them and my state pension including SERPS. I can only assume that the small increase in the latter has not been matched by an increase in the tax allowance.

I must now have another go at EonNext which is also staffed by idiots.

[Alaric]

I can only assume that the small increase in the latter has not been matched by an increase in the tax allowance.

One of Rishi's paying for Covid measures was a freeze in personal allowances and similar stuff like the Annual CGT exemption limit.

If inflation at higher levels returns, many people will discover that indexed benefite have a 3% or 5% cap.

[XFool]

On the substantive point, I have used the Government Gateway service for years and once it is set up it is very simple to access. I have no idea why the OP or the Guardian correspondent are getting so uptight about it.

It seems that these extra 'security questions' (or initial HMRC registration questions?) are not answerable by many - such as those with no current UK passport. A driving licence would do, unfortunately it needs to be a NI driving licence!

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/apr/06/hm-revenues-id-rules-are-driving-me-back-to-pen-and-paper

Clearly this needs sorting out somehow.

Another thing the complaints woman said was that everybody now has to answer these extra questions to stop fraudsters but I don't personally know anyone else who does...

That is odd as I certainly don't have to answer any extra questions. So far.

[Dod101]

On the substantive point, I have used the Government Gateway service for years and once it is set up it is very simple to access. I have no idea why the OP or the Guardian correspondent are getting so uptight about it.

Incidentally it is not just self employed citizens who are affected it is people like me (many of us here no doubt) who have to file a tax return each year. But as I say, very straightforward.
Dod

I used Govt, Gateway for a few years, too, and found it much easier and quicker than a paper return and I knew what my tax situation was straightaway. Then, when signing on to do my 2019-2020 return I got the security code, entered it and logged on, only to be asked to complete the idiotic extra security questions which were mentioned on here earlier and which few old people will be able to do. I no longer have a valid passport and possibly never will again, I don't have an N. Irish driving licence and it's not my fault that DVLA can't cope with questions about my UK one, which I managed to renew on line in a couple of days not long ago; I get P.60s from the insurance companies who provide my annuities but since I am not employed by them am not allowed to answer questions about those (though the paper form gives code for one of them and describes it as my employer!). I had to do a paper return last year and said I hoped the idiotic situation would be sorted in time for me to do my 2020-2021 return; needless to say it has not. The person handling my complaint suggested I try contacting a certain credit reference agency, though I don't have any debts and am not sure where that would get me. However, I tried but couldn't log on with them either so back to doing a paper return again this year. They sent me photocopies of the forms and it is all quite different from what they used to be. I literally stayed up all last night filling it in. I don't know what they will make of my efforts; I just sent a list of my share disposals, showing individual profits and the total net gain and the small taxable amount left after the allowances and asked them to deduct it from my c/f losses. I doubt if their system will facilitate scanning of that.

I had been sent a letter earlier informing me that I didn't need to send a return which I don't understand since it looks to me as though I owe some income tax as well, despite interest and dividends having gone down quite a lot. I had been hoping I might be due a refund. Either way, if one has savings and investments outside ISAs, I don't see how they can know who owes who what without a return being submitted. I think quite a lot of old people have been told they no longer need to do a return and the reason the Govt. Gateway comes up with those questions is because it is not set up to receive their accounts. There was a hint at that in one of the complaint responses. It occurs to me that someone has decided that the amount of tax some oldies are likely to have to pay on top of what is deducted from pensions and annuities is so little, it is cheaper to tell them not to bother sending a return. I have quite significant c/f losses so they think I am unlikely ever to have to pay cgt for instance. Another thing the complaints woman said was that everybody now has to answer these extra questions to stop fraudsters but I don't personally know anyone else who does and I think all those mentioned on here are old people, mostly women, including my late sister who still hadn't submitted her return for 2018-19 by the time she died in January, having picked up Covid in hospital after being admitted with what I think was probably a stress induced exacerbation of her MS. I thought of her last night! I can't see any logic in it; it's just a system designed by idiots. I don't want to do another paper return (go online and see what it looks like and how they tell you how to calculate your tax, which would take ages) but I really don't see anything changing unless enough of us start making a fuss, especially since all the way through filling in the paper return and looking at the notes, we are encouraged to file online. I sent my return by special delivery, which was expensive, to guarantee it would arrive tomorrow which is the deadline. What's the betting it doesn't? The Post Office seems to work at snail's pace now as well.

A final point which I find curious. A week ago I received 2 letters from Phoenix saying that my monthly annuity payments had been reduced, a bit odd since they are fixed rate policies, but the tax code covers the tax on them and my state pension including SERPS. I can only assume that the small increase in the latter has not been matched by an increase in the tax allowance.

I must now have another go at EonNext which is also staffed by idiots.

I am sorry about your very evident frustrations. I hope that my Government Gateway account remains as it is. It is a long time since I set it up and so far it works fine. I have actually completed my tax return for the year to 5 April 2022 so will have no need to access it for about another year.

Dod