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Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

Practical Issues
stevensfo
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Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319781

Postby stevensfo » June 19th, 2020, 2:32 pm

When we retire, I quite like the idea of regularly spending a few months in south Poland (my wife has use of a house there and I love the beer!), Malta, Italy, UK and maybe some voluntary work in Tanzania. I'm easily pleased, and with decent WiFi and some books, I can be happy almost anywhere. I have met a few retired people in the past who seem to spend their retirement all over the place, but I never bothered to ask about how they deal with taxes. I know the general rule is that you're resident if you live somewhere at least six months, but what if you don't?

I'll have a pension from Italy, a pension from the UK and, more importantly wrt taxes, some ssISA portfolios which, thanks to TMF and you guys, should supplement our income enough for us to fly Easyjet instead of Ryanair ;) But I'm aware that if I claim tax residency outside the UK, I will lose the ISA wrapper protection.

So, if someone spends e.g. 3 months in each country, can they choose where to pay income tax?

Steve
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Moved from DAK to Taxes. - Chris

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319801

Postby Lootman » June 19th, 2020, 3:23 pm

stevensfo wrote: I'm aware that if I claim tax residency outside the UK, I will lose the ISA wrapper protection.

So, if someone spends e.g. 3 months in each country, can they choose where to pay income tax?

You do not lose the tax benefits of an ISA if you are non-resident in the UK for tax purposes. However you may be liable to tax on the dividends and gains in the country that you are tax resident in. And you cannot make new contributions to an ISA as a non-resident.

I've had the same thought as you, that it should be possible to set up your life so that you are not resident for tax purposes anywhere. So for example you can be in the US up to 182 days a year and not be considered resident for tax purposes. Other countries might have a 3-month rule or even just a 1-month rule for residence. If you were careful about the periods you spend in a few countries you might achieve the holy grail of being taxed nowhere.

I read somewhere that to lose UK tax residency you have to nominate another country to be resident in. If that is the case then you could nominate (say) France, and then the following year lose that residency.

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319809

Postby dspp » June 19th, 2020, 4:11 pm

Lootman wrote:
stevensfo wrote: I'm aware that if I claim tax residency outside the UK, I will lose the ISA wrapper protection.

So, if someone spends e.g. 3 months in each country, can they choose where to pay income tax?

You do not lose the tax benefits of an ISA if you are non-resident in the UK for tax purposes. However you may be liable to tax on the dividends and gains in the country that you are tax resident in. And you cannot make new contributions to an ISA as a non-resident.

I've had the same thought as you, that it should be possible to set up your life so that you are not resident for tax purposes anywhere. So for example you can be in the US up to 182 days a year and not be considered resident for tax purposes. Other countries might have a 3-month rule or even just a 1-month rule for residence. If you were careful about the periods you spend in a few countries you might achieve the holy grail of being taxed nowhere.

I read somewhere that to lose UK tax residency you have to nominate another country to be resident in. If that is the case then you could nominate (say) France, and then the following year lose that residency.


It can be done, indeed I have had years when my circumstances accidentally created "resident of nowhere" outcomes.

The noise of the china falling off the walls when NHS eligibility tests align with tax residency tests is what I am waiting for. It will come.

dspp

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319843

Postby stevensfo » June 19th, 2020, 5:32 pm

Lootman wrote:
stevensfo wrote: I'm aware that if I claim tax residency outside the UK, I will lose the ISA wrapper protection.

So, if someone spends e.g. 3 months in each country, can they choose where to pay income tax?

You do not lose the tax benefits of an ISA if you are non-resident in the UK for tax purposes. However you may be liable to tax on the dividends and gains in the country that you are tax resident in. And you cannot make new contributions to an ISA as a non-resident.

I've had the same thought as you, that it should be possible to set up your life so that you are not resident for tax purposes anywhere. So for example you can be in the US up to 182 days a year and not be considered resident for tax purposes. Other countries might have a 3-month rule or even just a 1-month rule for residence. If you were careful about the periods you spend in a few countries you might achieve the holy grail of being taxed nowhere.

I read somewhere that to lose UK tax residency you have to nominate another country to be resident in. If that is the case then you could nominate (say) France, and then the following year lose that residency.


Thanks for the info. I didn't realise that there were different times required for residence. My question should have been clearer. If I can possibly modify my question....Can I choose to remain tax resident in the UK even if I'm only there a few weeks per year.....and maybe periods of 3-4 months in other countries with warmer climates. :-) But you made me realise that I will have to check up on the rules in each country. My ssISAs were originally set up as a sort of way to make up for a huge shortfall in pension contributions, and frankly, the thought of being taxed on the ISA dividends after almost 30 years would be an irony worthy of a Shakespearean tragedy!

Steve

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319846

Postby stevensfo » June 19th, 2020, 5:40 pm

dspp wrote:
Lootman wrote:
stevensfo wrote: I'm aware that if I claim tax residency outside the UK, I will lose the ISA wrapper protection.

So, if someone spends e.g. 3 months in each country, can they choose where to pay income tax?

You do not lose the tax benefits of an ISA if you are non-resident in the UK for tax purposes. However you may be liable to tax on the dividends and gains in the country that you are tax resident in. And you cannot make new contributions to an ISA as a non-resident.

I've had the same thought as you, that it should be possible to set up your life so that you are not resident for tax purposes anywhere. So for example you can be in the US up to 182 days a year and not be considered resident for tax purposes. Other countries might have a 3-month rule or even just a 1-month rule for residence. If you were careful about the periods you spend in a few countries you might achieve the holy grail of being taxed nowhere.

I read somewhere that to lose UK tax residency you have to nominate another country to be resident in. If that is the case then you could nominate (say) France, and then the following year lose that residency.


It can be done, indeed I have had years when my circumstances accidentally created "resident of nowhere" outcomes.

The noise of the china falling off the walls when NHS eligibility tests align with tax residency tests is what I am waiting for. It will come.

dspp



Re.
The noise of the china falling off the walls when NHS eligibility tests align with tax residency tests is what I am waiting for. It will come.


I vaguely remember reading articles in my Dad's newspaper in the 1970s about 'Shock/Horror' Rich Arabs coming to London for operations on the NHS. So this has been going on for generations! Not much has changed. Talk to any experienced nurse or doctor and they will tell you how to improve the system, but the managers don't listen to them. It's too dangerous politically to change any real 'rules'. Better just to make savings where possible, while still allowing the abuse of the NHS to continue.

Steve

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319848

Postby mc2fool » June 19th, 2020, 5:49 pm

The phrase you should look up is Perpetual Traveller.

Also domicile; the UK has that concept in addition and separate to being resident. You can be non-resident but still be UK domiciled and vice-versa.

"Your domicile’s usually the country your father considered his permanent home when you were born." https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/non-domiciled-residents

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319849

Postby Lootman » June 19th, 2020, 5:51 pm

stevensfo wrote:Can I choose to remain tax resident in the UK even if I'm only there a few weeks per year.....and maybe periods of 3-4 months in other countries with warmer climates. :-)

But you made me realise that I will have to check up on the rules in each country. My ssISAs were originally set up as a sort of way to make up for a huge shortfall in pension contributions, and frankly, the thought of being taxed on the ISA dividends after almost 30 years would be an irony worthy of a Shakespearean tragedy!

It used to be the case that you had to apply to be deemed non-resident in the UK. So even if you spent little time in the UK in a tax year, unless you chose to actually register as non-resident, then you were still regarded as resident.

However that changed a few years ago and now the determination is strictly rules-based. So if you satisfy the rules for being non-resident then you are non-resident. You can't choose to be resident unless you pass one of the residency tests. (Of course HMRC might not know where you are and so fail to make that determination, but that is a separate issue).

There were some years in the past when I had job contracts overseas and could have qualified for non-resident status. But I chose not to since the tax wasn't much different either way, and I wanted to make ISA subscriptions.

And yes, each country will have its own residency rules and requirements. You need to check each country you will be in to be certain you don't make an expensive mistake.

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319876

Postby AF62 » June 19th, 2020, 8:13 pm

If you have a UK government service pension, such as civil service, teachers, armed forces, police etc and some NHS pensions, then it doesn't matter where you reside. With the exception of a very small number of exceptions, you get taxed in the UK on it.

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319901

Postby didds » June 19th, 2020, 11:46 pm

mc2fool wrote:The phrase you should look up is Perpetual Traveller.

Also domicile; the UK has that concept in addition and separate to being resident. You can be non-resident but still be UK domiciled and vice-versa.

"Your domicile’s usually the country your father considered his permanent home when you were born." https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/non-domiciled-residents



so what if your father was a perpetual traveller?

(serious question!)

didds

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319934

Postby richlist » June 20th, 2020, 9:05 am

Presumably the father would have a domicile based on his father (the grandfather). So your domicile would be on that basis.

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#319992

Postby mc2fool » June 20th, 2020, 12:02 pm

didds wrote:
mc2fool wrote:The phrase you should look up is Perpetual Traveller.

Also domicile; the UK has that concept in addition and separate to being resident. You can be non-resident but still be UK domiciled and vice-versa.

"Your domicile’s usually the country your father considered his permanent home when you were born." https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/non-domiciled-residents

so what if your father was a perpetual traveller?

(serious question!)

Interesting question. :)

The above determines your domicile of origin, which is what you get by default for your domicile status, but as the page at the link goes on to say, "It may have changed if you moved abroad and you do not intend to return", which is known as your domicile of choice -- and they do mean ever as one of the tests is/was where you intend to be buried! If there's evidence that it's in the UK (e.g. by a clause in your will or 'cos you'd reserved a plot) that'd count towards you still being UK domiciled, even if you spent the rest of your life living elsewhere ...

At least it used to be so, but it's some decades since I looked into it and things may well have changed. The whole business of residency and domicile is complex. If you follow through the links on the afore-linked to page you'll find a lot more information.

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320025

Postby didds » June 20th, 2020, 1:44 pm

mc2fool wrote: one of the tests is/was where you intend to be buried!


which of course leads one to wonder what if you do n ot intend to be buried?

or buried at sea ?

Or cremated asnd ashes scattered at sea outside of territorial waters etc etc etc ?

(im sure of course there is some clause covering that).

didds

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320390

Postby JonE » June 22nd, 2020, 10:22 am

stevensfo wrote: the thought of being taxed on the ISA dividends after almost 30 years would be an irony worthy of a Shakespearean tragedy!
Domicile is a famously tricky topic and it's made even trickier by countries using different definitions and attaching different levels of significance to one's 'domicile' so I'll make no further comment on the topic and will also assume you're a UK national.

Whether one is tax-resident in the UK for a tax year has been determined by the Statutory Residence Test since April '13.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-test-srt

Many countries regard one as tax-resident for a tax year if one is resident for 183 days or more in that tax year. Where I live has a special 60-day scheme to allow qualifying individuals not deemed resident elsewhere to claim tax-residence - but that requires some local employment or business interests. However, the UK tax year demonstrates that the definition of 'tax year' is not consistent across all countries and that can introduce interesting complications.

Double Taxation Agreements exist between many country-pairs and any specific agreement may contain rules which supersede the 'normal' rules of one or both countries. Each potentially relevant DTA needs to be studied in detail with special attention to how it handles you being resident in both or, indeed, neither state. The country of which one is a national may come into play.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/tax-treaties

As already hinted, to claim relief from UK income tax on UK income if you reside in a country having a DTA with the UK you need to get a 'certificate of overseas residence' from the taxman where you reside confirming that you are resident there according to their laws and submit that to HMRC. Rules governing my DT-I provided that it had to be submitted by my local tax office direct to HMRC (once I'd paid the stamp duty on the document).

Don't assume that the position for UK income tax purposes determines the position for other taxes.

Those dividends within your ISA wrapper will continue to be protected for UK tax purposes so I'd have thought the easiest and cleanest no-hassle approach is to arrange matters such that you are formally tax resident in a country having a DTA with UK which doesn't tax you on dividends and, preferably, not on interest or capital gains on shares either. Some variant of a 183-day rule seems commonplace so you may need a longer search to find somewhere where you can qualify with shorter periods of residence. It's much easier to navigate the legislation if retired (no need to study all those complex provisions regarding employment) and, if retired, some countries may allow you to choose each year if you wish your pensions (UK Crown pensions usually remaining a special case) to be assessed under a special scheme if that'd be more advantageous to you.

Cheers!

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320467

Postby Lootman » June 22nd, 2020, 3:56 pm

JonE wrote:
stevensfo wrote: the thought of being taxed on the ISA dividends after almost 30 years would be an irony worthy of a Shakespearean tragedy!

Domicile is a famously tricky topic and it's made even trickier by countries using different definitions and attaching different levels of significance to one's 'domicile' so I'll make no further comment on the topic and will also assume you're a UK national.

Assuming that you are a UK citizen then the only tax significance of your domicile that I am aware of is for inheritance tax. It does not affect the annual UK income tax returns. So if you are in a situation where you are not worried about IHT then you can ignore the issue of whether the UK regards you as having UK domicile or not. There is also a process to formally change that if it does bother you. But in practice probate will happen in your new home according to their rules and not the UK's. The UK may not even know that you have died. I suspect that only a tiny proportion of British ex-pats bother to formally renounce their UK domicile because in practical terms it won't affect anything.

JonE wrote:Whether one is tax-resident in the UK for a tax year has been determined by the Statutory Residence Test since April '13.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-test-srt

As already hinted, to claim relief from UK income tax on UK income if you reside in a country having a DTA with the UK you need to get a 'certificate of overseas residence' from the taxman where you reside confirming that you are resident there according to their laws and submit that to HMRC. Rules governing my DT-I provided that it had to be submitted by my local tax office direct to HMRC (once I'd paid the stamp duty on the document).

Those dividends within your ISA wrapper will continue to be protected for UK tax purposes so I'd have thought the easiest and cleanest no-hassle approach is to arrange matters such that you are formally tax resident in a country having a DTA with UK which doesn't tax you on dividends and, preferably, not on interest or capital gains on shares either.

I would have thought that the "easiest, cleanest, no-hassle approach" (if not the most impeccable) is to just leave the UK and take with you whatever assets would be taxable. Then there would most likely be no UK tax to pay anyway since there would be no UK income. You would avoid UK tax simply by not having any income in the UK, and by not being resident in the UK.

The ISA could stay if you wanted since that is not subject to UK tax anyway. But I would probably close it, cash it out and reinvest it in whichever local offshore financial centre was convenient for my new homes (e.g. Gibraltar if I were in Spain). I would do that partly to ensure I have no assets left in the UK and partly because, in theory anyway, that ISA income might be taxable in my new home.

The principle would be to leave nothing in the UK. Obviously that would involve you selling any home you have in the UK, moving investments etc. The only problem is if you receive a UK pension that exceeds the tax-free band, then you are more stuck. In my case it will just be a state pension of 175 a week and that is not enough to attract UK tax anyway. I might leave a UK bank account open to receive that along with a UK brass plate address.

It would be interesting to know, of all the people who permanently emigrate from the UK, what percentage go through all the formal steps you describe, and what percentage just leave, do not notify UK authorities, and simply drop off the radar. In practice if the UK has no jurisdiction over you then it just ignores you, unless you are a celebrity or billionaire anyway.

My aim would eventually be to get a foreign passport and then let my UK passport expire. That would presumably end my UK domicile as well. It would be amusing to enter the UK on a foreign passport as if I had never been in the UK before.

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320471

Postby stevensfo » June 22nd, 2020, 4:06 pm

JonE wrote:
stevensfo wrote: the thought of being taxed on the ISA dividends after almost 30 years would be an irony worthy of a Shakespearean tragedy!
Domicile is a famously tricky topic and it's made even trickier by countries using different definitions and attaching different levels of significance to one's 'domicile' so I'll make no further comment on the topic and will also assume you're a UK national.

Whether one is tax-resident in the UK for a tax year has been determined by the Statutory Residence Test since April '13.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-test-srt

Many countries regard one as tax-resident for a tax year if one is resident for 183 days or more in that tax year. Where I live has a special 60-day scheme to allow qualifying individuals not deemed resident elsewhere to claim tax-residence - but that requires some local employment or business interests. However, the UK tax year demonstrates that the definition of 'tax year' is not consistent across all countries and that can introduce interesting complications.

Double Taxation Agreements exist between many country-pairs and any specific agreement may contain rules which supersede the 'normal' rules of one or both countries. Each potentially relevant DTA needs to be studied in detail with special attention to how it handles you being resident in both or, indeed, neither state. The country of which one is a national may come into play.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/tax-treaties

As already hinted, to claim relief from UK income tax on UK income if you reside in a country having a DTA with the UK you need to get a 'certificate of overseas residence' from the taxman where you reside confirming that you are resident there according to their laws and submit that to HMRC. Rules governing my DT-I provided that it had to be submitted by my local tax office direct to HMRC (once I'd paid the stamp duty on the document).

Don't assume that the position for UK income tax purposes determines the position for other taxes.

Those dividends within your ISA wrapper will continue to be protected for UK tax purposes so I'd have thought the easiest and cleanest no-hassle approach is to arrange matters such that you are formally tax resident in a country having a DTA with UK which doesn't tax you on dividends and, preferably, not on interest or capital gains on shares either. Some variant of a 183-day rule seems commonplace so you may need a longer search to find somewhere where you can qualify with shorter periods of residence. It's much easier to navigate the legislation if retired (no need to study all those complex provisions regarding employment) and, if retired, some countries may allow you to choose each year if you wish your pensions (UK Crown pensions usually remaining a special case) to be assessed under a special scheme if that'd be more advantageous to you.

Cheers!


Thanks for that, Jon. A lot to think about. I really would like to keep things as simple as possible when I retire. So I assume that if I were to be less than 6 months in any one country and had at least an address in the UK, HMRC would not object to me continuing tax residency there. That would be the best solution.

Still, a few more years yet till I have to worry about it.

Steve

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320474

Postby dspp » June 22nd, 2020, 4:09 pm

Lootman wrote:That would presumably end my UK domicile as well. It would be amusing to enter the UK on a foreign passport as if I had never been in the UK before.


Passport expiry does not terminate domicile.

Depending on how things pan out in years to come, that might be a very amusing scenario to observe at the entry desk. In quite a few countries it is an offence to enter on another country's passport if one is a national of that country.

- dspp

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320479

Postby Lootman » June 22nd, 2020, 4:37 pm

dspp wrote:
Lootman wrote:That would presumably end my UK domicile as well. It would be amusing to enter the UK on a foreign passport as if I had never been in the UK before.

Passport expiry does not terminate domicile.

Depending on how things pan out in years to come, that might be a very amusing scenario to observe at the entry desk. In quite a few countries it is an offence to enter on another country's passport if one is a national of that country.

The US has such a rule. It was introduced as part of the response to 9/11. I am not aware that the UK has the same rule, as it is routine for many people here to have dual nationality. I was told by Border Control that they prefer that you enter with your UK passport, but that it is not necessary.

Some of the countries that will grant citizenship for a price will let you do so in any name you want. So Harry Smith can become Hector Suarez. That might be fun.

Of course if face recognition software was good enough, or fingerprinting or retinal scans were used, it might not work :)

I meant more that the acquisition of another passport and citizenship, along with letting a UK passport lapse and having a home and life elsewhere, should be sufficient to renounce domicile, if that is desired. The idea is to demonstrate that you have established a closer permanent bond with another country than to your default country of origin.

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320481

Postby scrumpyjack » June 22nd, 2020, 4:48 pm

It takes many years to lose your UK domicile or 'deemed' domicile, so as to be effective for IHT. Not as easy as no longer being a UK resident for income and CGT tax purposes

https://www.newquadrantpartners.com/all ... %20country.

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320484

Postby Lootman » June 22nd, 2020, 5:02 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:It takes many years to lose your UK domicile or 'deemed' domicile, so as to be effective for IHT. Not as easy as no longer being a UK resident for income and CGT tax purposes

https://www.newquadrantpartners.com/all ... %20country.

Your cited article appears to indicate that three years may be sufficient. So perhaps "a few" is more accurate than "many"?

"For inheritance tax purposes you will remain “deemed domiciled” for a further three years from the time you acquire a new domicile of choice."

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Re: Retired Nomads- where are they resident for tax purposes?

#320489

Postby stevensfo » June 22nd, 2020, 5:29 pm

Well, as I've already said, I will simply assume that I'm still tax resident in the UK. For many reasons, it would the best choice.

Re. Lootman's ideas, well, I remember about 20 years ago stories of faking fingerprints by imprinting a pattern on a warm piece of clingfilm and sticking it on the thumb. Haven't tried it yet. Retinal scans, well, what about holographic contact lenses? :lol:

For face recognition, I've sometimes thought about going through the e-passport exits at Luton, using my wife's passport and holding up a good lifesize photocopy of her photo in front of my face. I really wonder if it would work. The screams of frustration as the security forces close in on her as she attempts to exit with 'my' passport. I'm sure we'd all laugh about it in the end. ;)

Steve


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