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Capital Gains Tax for Shares

Practical Issues
Lootman
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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355677

Postby Lootman » November 11th, 2020, 8:36 pm

JohnB wrote:Apart from the increased tax threat, and the likelihood that people will postpone taking gains so the revenue will not increase, they suggest that if you inherit assets the CG won't be reset, but continue based on the original purchase price. This would be a administrative nightmare for inheritors, who would need to hunt through someone else's financial records to find purchase details. Anyone executor wanting to avoid this by liquidating all assets could be hit by complicated CG calculations on what would have been an IHT exempt estate.

And lots of elderly people who've not been using their CG allowances because it was too much bother to change their portfolio, and know that CG's would be wiped out, will have their inheritors paying unnecessary tax.

Agreed. But in respect of the latter, it has never been prudent to assume that you will not need to liquidate assets in the future whilst still alive. And letting the annual CGT-free allowance go to waste is tragic negligence.

This may not be implemented as surely the Tory base will go beserk. Most other nations I have looked at have CGT rates below income tax rates for very sound reasons. Investing is risky and the more favourable tax treatment is an attempt to encourage the taking of risk to invest.

Parky
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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355740

Postby Parky » November 12th, 2020, 8:29 am

Lootman wrote:
This may not be implemented as surely the Tory base will go beserk. Most other nations I have looked at have CGT rates below income tax rates for very sound reasons. Investing is risky and the more favourable tax treatment is an attempt to encourage the taking of risk to invest.


I hope you are right, but we have a populist government now, and increasing CGT would please the newly won Tory voters. If implemented it would certainly not be reversed by a Labour government. I am sitting on some capital gains, and worried.

PinkDalek
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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355744

Postby PinkDalek » November 12th, 2020, 8:52 am

JohnB wrote:Apart from the increased tax threat, and the likelihood that people will postpone taking gains so the revenue will not increase, they suggest that if you inherit assets the CG won't be reset, but continue based on the original purchase price. This would be a administrative nightmare for inheritors, who would need to hunt through someone else's financial records to find purchase details. Anyone executor wanting to avoid this by liquidating all assets could be hit by complicated CG calculations on what would have been an IHT exempt estate. ...


The Capital Gains Tax review – first report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/934010/Capital_Gains_Tax_stage_1_report_-_Nov_2020_-_web_copy.pdf acknowledges this ridiculous potential administrative nightmare and includes at page 15:

While a no gain no loss approach on death would reduce a major distortion, it
would increase the range of occasions on which there would be an administrative
challenge in calculating historic base costs. The OTS has accordingly considered
additional measures which could mitigate this.

One possibility would be to consider a general rebasing from 1982 to a later year for
all assets. The OTS understands from professional valuers that valuations of land and
property become much easier from the late 1990s onwards due to increasing
registration with the land registry and widespread digitalisation. So perhaps the year
2000 would be a suitable one to consider.


The entire document is worthy of a study, even if the Chancellor is currently concentrating on other matters.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355751

Postby JohnB » November 12th, 2020, 9:12 am

I read chapter 5, and the problem is its focus is all about property and paintings, assets that inheritors are likely to want to keep and dispose of later. But at no point does it mention shares/funds, where generally the executor liquidates the holding and passes on cash. While property is well recorded, and antiques the preserve of the rich, many in the middle class inspired by the privatisation schemes of the 1980s will have small holdings of shares and funds which have been drip-fed, split and merged over decades. And while people will keep valuations, who keeps transaction details forever?

My parents had 100 different investments/savings schemes between them when Dad died. He was a good record keeper, so it was straightforward to liquidate his fraction, but trying to find out the transaction history for them would have been impossible deciphering his handwritten notes over 40 years. We simplified some of Mum's, but stopped when she got confused with all the paperwork, as it seemed best to let sleeping dogs lie. She can still do Telegraph crosswords, but no-way could I find out a CG trail from her.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355757

Postby scrumpyjack » November 12th, 2020, 9:24 am

JohnB wrote:I read chapter 5, and the problem is its focus is all about property and paintings, assets that inheritors are likely to want to keep and dispose of later. But at no point does it mention shares/funds, where generally the executor liquidates the holding and passes on cash. While property is well recorded, and antiques the preserve of the rich, many in the middle class inspired by the privatisation schemes of the 1980s will have small holdings of shares and funds which have been drip-fed, split and merged over decades. And while people will keep valuations, who keeps transaction details forever?

My parents had 100 different investments/savings schemes between them when Dad died. He was a good record keeper, so it was straightforward to liquidate his fraction, but trying to find out the transaction history for them would have been impossible deciphering his handwritten notes over 40 years. We simplified some of Mum's, but stopped when she got confused with all the paperwork, as it seemed best to let sleeping dogs lie. She can still do Telegraph crosswords, but no-way could I find out a CG trail from her.


As I understand it the question of identifying original cost would only arise when a spouse dies and leaves assets to the other half. They are not suggesting that assets should be liable to both CGT and IHT on death. So if your parents die and leave their estate to you, your acquisition cost would be probate value as it is now.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355766

Postby JohnB » November 12th, 2020, 9:54 am

Recommendation 7
Where a relief or exemption from Inheritance Tax applies, the government should
consider removing the capital gains uplift on death, and instead provide that the
recipient is treated as acquiring the assets at the historic base cost of the person
who has died.


So the problem is not double charging, but the charging of CG on assets within the IHT reliefs. So an estate of a married couple with £700k in investments, a £400k house and £200k cash, which currently has £1m of reliefs, and would be charged IHT at 40% of £300k, might need the executor to do a full CG assessment on the investments and house, and generate CG liability on the gains of £50k of house (easy to work out) and £700k of invesments (much harder), and pass on different liabilities to the beneficiaries depending on which assets they got. The one who got the house has it saddled with £50k of gains which it is very hard to trickle discharge.

Now its possible that what they mean by "reliefs and exemptions" is not the £325k/person £350k/house I think of, but they never make that clear.

If you bought £300 of BA shares when they were privatised in in 1987, and chose a dividend reinvestment option, how many IAG shares do you have now? Show your working.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355771

Postby scrumpyjack » November 12th, 2020, 10:05 am

Your example does illustrate how complicated this would be. Where different rates of tax apply, the usual legislative practice is to allow the taxpayer to sequence things in the most advantageous way. So the house would get PRR, and then one would need to allocate the other assets between the exempt portion of the estate and the non-exempt portion to decide which assets did get rebased and which did not. A fairly difficult thing to legislate sensibly for?

My guess is Sunak will not touch this. Far too complicated and he's got enough on his plate anyway.

It is meant to be 'Tax Simplification' but it would be the complete opposite!

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355772

Postby PinkDalek » November 12th, 2020, 10:06 am

JohnB wrote:I read chapter 5, and the problem is its focus is all about property and paintings, assets that inheritors are likely to want to keep and dispose of later. But at no point does it mention shares/funds, ..


Yes that chapter was on the whole concerning those types of assets but 5.7 commenced Capital Gains position on death
5.7 When someone dies, there is no Capital Gains Tax to pay on any unrealised gains that have arisen since they acquired their assets.
and much later, for example, 5.46 A move to a more recent rebasing date for all assets would cause a large increase in the number of taxpayers who acquired assets prior to the new rebasing date. These taxpayers would need to obtain a valuation, rather than using their historic base cost. etc.

I took it potentially to relate to all chargeable assets but could well be wrong - see below.

scrumpyjack wrote:As I understand it the question of identifying original cost would only arise when a spouse dies and leaves assets to the other half. They are not suggesting that assets should be liable to both CGT and IHT on death. So if your parents die and leave their estate to you, your acquisition cost would be probate value as it is now.


That underlined part is interesting but only covers one of the recommendations - I think!

From page 84:

Recommendation 7

Where a relief or exemption from Inheritance Tax applies, the government should
consider removing the capital gains uplift on death, and instead provide that the
recipient is treated as acquiring the assets at the historic base cost of the person
who has died.

Recommendation 8

In addition, the government should consider removing the capital gains uplift on
death more widely, and instead provide that the person inheriting the asset is
treated as acquiring the assets at the historic base cost of the person who has died.


Recommendation 9

If government does remove the capital gains uplift on death more widely, it should:
• consider a rebasing of all assets, perhaps to the year 2000
• consider extending Gift Holdover Relief to a broader range of assets

scrumpyjack
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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355776

Postby scrumpyjack » November 12th, 2020, 10:21 am

Yes but I doubt they would do that as it amounts to double taxation. You would inherit an asset on which 40% tax had been charged but the asset would be 'pregnant' with a gain on which CGT would be payable in addition to the IHT on a subsequent disposal. Hard to see how such double taxation is fair.

hiriskpaul
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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355793

Postby hiriskpaul » November 12th, 2020, 10:53 am

PinkDalek wrote:
JohnB wrote:I read chapter 5, and the problem is its focus is all about property and paintings, assets that inheritors are likely to want to keep and dispose of later. But at no point does it mention shares/funds, ..


Yes that chapter was on the whole concerning those types of assets but 5.7 commenced Capital Gains position on death
5.7 When someone dies, there is no Capital Gains Tax to pay on any unrealised gains that have arisen since they acquired their assets.
and much later, for example, 5.46 A move to a more recent rebasing date for all assets would cause a large increase in the number of taxpayers who acquired assets prior to the new rebasing date. These taxpayers would need to obtain a valuation, rather than using their historic base cost. etc.

I took it potentially to relate to all chargeable assets but could well be wrong - see below.

scrumpyjack wrote:As I understand it the question of identifying original cost would only arise when a spouse dies and leaves assets to the other half. They are not suggesting that assets should be liable to both CGT and IHT on death. So if your parents die and leave their estate to you, your acquisition cost would be probate value as it is now.


That underlined part is interesting but only covers one of the recommendations - I think!

From page 84:

Recommendation 7

Where a relief or exemption from Inheritance Tax applies, the government should
consider removing the capital gains uplift on death, and instead provide that the
recipient is treated as acquiring the assets at the historic base cost of the person
who has died.

Recommendation 8

In addition, the government should consider removing the capital gains uplift on
death more widely, and instead provide that the person inheriting the asset is
treated as acquiring the assets at the historic base cost of the person who has died.


Recommendation 9

If government does remove the capital gains uplift on death more widely, it should:
• consider a rebasing of all assets, perhaps to the year 2000
• consider extending Gift Holdover Relief to a broader range of assets

The OTS needs renaming if they think these recommendations will lead to tax simplification. Maybe the title is intended to be ironic?

hiriskpaul
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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355800

Postby hiriskpaul » November 12th, 2020, 11:06 am

I think the CGT system is probably as simple as it can be and I have not seen anything in the proposal that offers simplification. Quite the opposite in fact. The justification for lower rates than for income tax and a high annual exemption is that nominal gains are taxed rather than real gains. We could go back to taxing real gains at higher rates, with a lower annual exemption. On the whole I would not object to that, but it would absolutely not be a tax simplification. Slashing the annual exemption and putting up tax rates without inflation adjustments on gains would simply be a tax raising exercise.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355805

Postby Gengulphus » November 12th, 2020, 11:23 am

Parky wrote:
Lootman wrote:This may not be implemented as surely the Tory base will go beserk. Most other nations I have looked at have CGT rates below income tax rates for very sound reasons. Investing is risky and the more favourable tax treatment is an attempt to encourage the taking of risk to invest.

I hope you are right, but we have a populist government now, and increasing CGT would please the newly won Tory voters. If implemented it would certainly not be reversed by a Labour government. ...

I wouldn't be entirely certain of that, because quite a few of the suggested changes are ones that were brought in by the last major CGT reforms, which were made in 2008 and were billed as a major CGT simplification (*) - and of course, that date means they were brought in by a Labour government! So for a Labour government, there would be an element of admitting that Labour got it wrong involved in implementing the changes the report talks about, and admitting that their party got it wrong isn't something politicians are renowned for...

But it needs to be pointed out that the government could implement every recommendation in the report and actually make just one change to the CGT system, namely abolishing Investors' Relief (**). That's because every recommendation the report makes is that the government should consider a change rather than actually make it, apart from parts of recommendation 6 (which is only applicable if they actually make the change recommendation 5 says they should consider) and recommendation 11 (which recommends abolishing Investors' Relief). So for all but recommendation 11, the government can end up saying "OK, we've considered it, as we were recommended to do, and the outcome of our consideration is that we don't think it's a good idea." or "Not applicable, as a result of our consideration of another recommendation".

The important point is that the report is presenting the government with a menu of possibilities the OTS thinks worth further consideration, not recommending that they eat the entire menu!

(*) And to be fair, they were a major CGT simplification: the details of indexation and taper relief were both quite complex, and both were entirely eliminated from CGT computations for 2008 onwards - with the proviso that CGT calculations for 2008 could be based on CGT calculations for earlier years, and those CGT calculations might not have needed to be performed until one did the CGT calculations for 2008. E.g. if I remember correctly (not guaranteed - it's many years since I saw this) there's the case of someone's spouse transferring shares to them before 6 April 2008 and them selling the shares later, which technically requires a 'no gain, no loss' CGT computation for each of the couple for the tax year in which the transfer occurred - but that computation would 'freeze in' the spouse's indexation so that it did indirectly affect the CGT computation for the final sale.

(**) Which is actually a relief I'd totally missed seeing, despite it having been around for 4 years now and usable for a year! I don't think on a brief investigation that it affects my tax affairs at all, and the report does suggest that that feeling is general, but I should probably investigate it more fully...

Gengulphus

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355833

Postby Gengulphus » November 12th, 2020, 12:16 pm

JohnB wrote:I read chapter 5, and the problem is its focus is all about property and paintings, assets that inheritors are likely to want to keep and dispose of later. But at no point does it mention shares/funds, where generally the executor liquidates the holding and passes on cash. While property is well recorded, and antiques the preserve of the rich, many in the middle class inspired by the privatisation schemes of the 1980s will have small holdings of shares and funds which have been drip-fed, split and merged over decades. And while people will keep valuations, who keeps transaction details forever?

That splits into two cases: transactions where one has completely disposed of the shareholding, and transactions where one still owns part or all of the shareholding. For the former case, one can dispose of the transaction details once the shareholding has been finally disposed of, the CGT (if any) has been dealt with and enough years have passed since then to allow HMRC a reasonable opportunity to enquire into any tax returns (or lacks thereof) involved. For the latter case, anyone with the imagination to take the possibility that they might some day have to account for CGT on the shares ought to keep them until they've completely disposed of the the shareholding and the former case applies instead.

And the suggestion in this report that the CGT allowance might be reduced to a third or less of its current amount while still acting as an "administrative de minimis" should serve as a reminder that there is a possibility that one might one day have to account for CGT, even for those for whom it currently seems an impossibly distant prospect: tax law changes can potentially make much more major differences to such matters than one thinks are at all likely to happen in the normal course of events.

I.e. basically, my suggested policy on keeping share transaction records is "if you still own the shares, keep the transaction details, however old they are - and if you cease to own them, continue holding them for at least a few years". I would add that in these days of cheap computer storage and the transaction details generally being in electronic documents rather than paper documents, it is actually easier to keep the records than to dispose of them. With paper records, there comes a point where one needs to go through them, weeding out the no-longer-relevant ones, because one simply doesn't have the physical space to store the old records - even though doing the weeding out may be quite a bit of work, and disposing of the weeded-out paper documents safely more work. But with electronic documents, a very easy method is just to start a new folder each tax year and leave all the old tax years' folders untouched (or just move them en masse to a back-up disc if one's main disc is uncomfortably full).

Gengulphus

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355847

Postby JohnB » November 12th, 2020, 12:55 pm

Its fine that people are responsible for their own tax records, but if this change is implemented, the burden is placed on others, first the executor, then the beneficiary, who are far less familiar with the history of the asset. Both could be accused of breaking the law because of the bad record keeping of others. And lots of the current deaths will be of people who probably keep their investment records in shoeboxes, not spreadsheets.

I note their case studies 11 and 12 are about selling BTL properties before and after death, and how the latter avoids CGT. But they don't have a case study of someone who's had a family home for decades, so nearly all its value is CG. They can sell it a week before death, and no CG is liable, but if they die and a relative takes it on, the relative has a property very encumbered with CG. Can the recipient accept it as their main residence, and remove all gain, if they flip it later, does the gain reappear. And given the main residence IHT allowance is exists for daughters but not nieces, the outcome could be different on how the estate is apportioned.

In no sense is this tax simplification.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355855

Postby johnhemming » November 12th, 2020, 1:31 pm

Whether or not this is tax simplication it is still now something that is more likely to happen. The OTS produces studies which are more likely to happen. I would expect the government to move in some way on this, but not necessarily straight away. The government will first want to get an idea of how damaged the economy is post Covid (and Brexit). That will then give some forecasts as to how bit the consequent fiscal problem is even though they have used magic money to paper over the deficit this year.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355911

Postby Lootman » November 12th, 2020, 3:58 pm

Gengulphus wrote:And the suggestion in this report that the CGT allowance might be reduced to a third or less of its current amount while still acting as an "administrative de minimis" should serve as a reminder that there is a possibility that one might one day have to account for CGT, even for those for whom it currently seems an impossibly distant prospect: tax law changes can potentially make much more major differences to such matters than one thinks are at all likely to happen in the normal course of events.

I.e. basically, my suggested policy on keeping share transaction records is "if you still own the shares, keep the transaction details, however old they are - and if you cease to own them, continue holding them for at least a few years". I would add that in these days of cheap computer storage and the transaction details generally being in electronic documents rather than paper documents, it is actually easier to keep the records than to dispose of them. With paper records, there comes a point where one needs to go through them, weeding out the no-longer-relevant ones, because one simply doesn't have the physical space to store the old records - even though doing the weeding out may be quite a bit of work, and disposing of the weeded-out paper documents safely more work. But with electronic documents, a very easy method is just to start a new folder each tax year and leave all the old tax years' folders untouched (or just move them en masse to a back-up disc if one's main disc is uncomfortably full).

It is of course prudent to keep transaction records, including subsequent events that effect the cost basis such as corporate actions. But the problem in many cases is that people will not have kept records of things that they previously had no reason to keep a record of.

So for example since indexation went away, there has been no need to retain the original purchase date of a share, because it does not affect the determination of the capital gain when sold (leaving aside the special case of the 30 day rule). So I for one have not kept such records for my positions. I can tell you the number of shares and the cost basis, and I will know the date of sale and the net proceeds. But the original purchase date and dates of any subsequent transactions is not material.

So if the CGT rules were now changed to make that important again, say if indexation were reintroduced, then I would have a problem.

Now you might be more thorough than I and keep that anyway. But then you might still be vulnerable to some other kind of rule change that requires other data that you have to date had no reason to think you would ever need.

The correct approach therefore, in my view, would be to grandfather existing positions into the current rules, and have the new rules apply only to newly established positions.

More generally, if the CGT rules are made more complex and/or more punitive, there might inevitably be an increase in evasion. People will either resent paying (say) income tax rates on capital gains, or what they perceive as double taxation, or they may find the extra work involved to be unreasonable or impossible. And unlike dividend and interest income, details about sales and gains are not reported in a consolidated tax certificate or any other form that I know of. HMRC is 100% reliant upon you declaring the gains completely and correctly. It has no easy way of cross-checking that and can only investigate a tiny fractions of the people who have gains each year.

If the net result of changes like these deter the reporting of gains AND deter people selling in the first place, then the extra revenue the government hopes to get from such changes may never materialise, so what would have been the point?

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355923

Postby scrumpyjack » November 12th, 2020, 4:28 pm

Yes the simplest solution is to sweep away all the indexation and taper relief etc and then to have a lower rate of CGT than on income to reflect that those reliefs are no longer available and that a substantial part of 'gains' are simply a reflection of inflation and the devaluation of money, ie not real gains.

Hang on a moment, that's the system we now have, and the reason we got it! Funny the OTS forgot to mention that in their review!

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355944

Postby hiriskpaul » November 12th, 2020, 5:30 pm

JohnB wrote:Its fine that people are responsible for their own tax records, but if this change is implemented, the burden is placed on others, first the executor, then the beneficiary, who are far less familiar with the history of the asset. Both could be accused of breaking the law because of the bad record keeping of others. And lots of the current deaths will be of people who probably keep their investment records in shoeboxes, not spreadsheets.

I note their case studies 11 and 12 are about selling BTL properties before and after death, and how the latter avoids CGT. But they don't have a case study of someone who's had a family home for decades, so nearly all its value is CG. They can sell it a week before death, and no CG is liable, but if they die and a relative takes it on, the relative has a property very encumbered with CG. Can the recipient accept it as their main residence, and remove all gain, if they flip it later, does the gain reappear. And given the main residence IHT allowance is exists for daughters but not nieces, the outcome could be different on how the estate is apportioned.

In no sense is this tax simplification.

Couldn't agree more. I have been sorting out my Uncle's estate for the last 18 months and it has been a total nightmare even with the existing rules. He left a bunch of share certificates but many have vanished completely. I would not have a clue what he paid for these shares nor when he bought them. It would all have needed to have been estimated in some way. This silly proposal would just increase the hassle and put up the cost of administering an estate.

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355945

Postby hiriskpaul » November 12th, 2020, 5:33 pm

johnhemming wrote:Whether or not this is tax simplication it is still now something that is more likely to happen. The OTS produces studies which are more likely to happen. I would expect the government to move in some way on this, but not necessarily straight away. The government will first want to get an idea of how damaged the economy is post Covid (and Brexit). That will then give some forecasts as to how bit the consequent fiscal problem is even though they have used magic money to paper over the deficit this year.

That sounds worrying. Do you think the OTS proposal on IHT reform will be implemented as well?

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Re: Capital Gains Tax for Shares

#355962

Postby Lootman » November 12th, 2020, 6:31 pm

johnhemming wrote:Whether or not this is tax simplication it is still now something that is more likely to happen. The OTS produces studies which are more likely to happen. I would expect the government to move in some way on this, but not necessarily straight away. The government will first want to get an idea of how damaged the economy is post Covid (and Brexit). That will then give some forecasts as to how bit the consequent fiscal problem is even though they have used magic money to paper over the deficit this year.

One thing I would hope for is that any change to CGT is forward-dated to the next tax year, rather than introduced overnight.

That would give people an opportunity to sell everything under the old rules, reinvest those funds anew, and ensure that the tax records are more complete, correct and appropriate for the new rules.

The government would benefit short-term because of the acceleration of CGT receipts, even if at a lower rate than will apply in the future. Whilst individuals will save some tax longer-term and will have easier record-keeping and tax reporting in the future.


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