Impossible extra security checks with government Gateway doing SA

[Charlottesquare]

One way past is to at least get the tax account set up and the SA access for it done, both are one off steps, from this you have your number and password, then buy in software for filing that does not require anything except these to be input. I gave up my practice September 2019 losing my agent codes but still complete a few returns for family and friends, I use TaxCalc (up to 30 returns) but for a single user this would be expensive. (I think Taxfiler may be cheaper)

Getting everyone set up has been a pain, but now it is done it seems to work fine, four submitted to date re 2019/2020.

The password questions/credit agency questions do sound like some of the registration steps but these were one off, after that access to the actual account has only involved a text code.

Are things changing yet again and should I give up doing family and friends?

[JohnB]

After minions claiming I'd have to submit a paper return, pay a late filing fee and appeal against it, I've now had a concession from the first level complaints team that my paper filing deadline has been extended to the 30th of April. Otherwise they tried to fob me off with "its someone else's policy" as if they don't represent HMRC as a whole. I have escalated the complaint to the second level team, accusing them of indirect age discrimination, and explaining I will be taking the case to the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

[XFool]

The password questions/credit agency questions do sound like some of the registration steps but these were one off, after that access to the actual account has only involved a text code.

Are things changing yet again and should I give up doing family and friends?

So far, this remains an unanswered question.

[Charlottesquare]

After minions claiming I'd have to submit a paper return, pay a late filing fee and appeal against it, I've now had a concession from the first level complaints team that my paper filing deadline has been extended to the 30th of April. Otherwise they tried to fob me off with "its someone else's policy" as if they don't represent HMRC as a whole. I have escalated the complaint to the second level team, accusing them of indirect age discrimination, and explaining I will be taking the case to the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

No expert but given they have now remedied the issue permitting the paper return, albeit somewhat late, what do you think that will now achieve?

[JohnB]

It will force them to review their policy. I'm sure many people would just accept the system, and crumble, but I think its important that someone stands up for the disadvantaged, and I have the time and the perseverance to make a difference here.

My sister in law had similar identity problems claiming her pension, and I think we need to fight back.

[XFool]

My sister in law had similar identity problems claiming her pension, and I think we need to fight back.

Does either your sister in law, or mum, live abroad or hold a non-UK passport?

TIA

[JohnB]

No of course not

[XFool]

OK. So, can anyone offer a convincing general explanation for these circumstances?

Are they:

1. Random security checks?
2. Checks following login errors?
3. Being gradually introduced on all accounts?
4. Applicable in particular (currently unknown) circumstances?
5. Other?

[Bouleversee]

Having spent much of last week calculating and listing out the various responses for my tax return, as I am only semi-literate when it comes to computers and might struggle if complications arose, my son came over today to help put the info. into my online tax return, as he did last year, when no problems arose. This year having logged on to my govt. gateway account with my UTI and received the code message to my house phone, and entered it we were surprised to get the ID queries mentioned in earlier posts. I don't have a valid passport a.t.m. )(who needs one ?) as mine expired during my late husband's long illness and then my own medical problems arose and now we have Covid so a valid passport is not exactly at the top of my priority list. I couldn't remember when I switched to a Sainsbury's credit card but, bless her, the person at the end of the phone when I finally got through was able to tell me within seconds the date it started in 1997 (lots of Brownie points to them!) and I had the details of my last year's tax return, but when these and then my address were entered, a message came up that the service was not available and that they were experiencing technical problems. That is still the situation. In the meantime, my son (who hasn't yet done his own return) tried getting on to his own gateway account and had no problem doing so.

What the heck is going on here? I am not a foreign national, I am 84, may never get another passport, don't switch credit cards every 5 minutes, never borrow and have been filing my own tax returns for very many years, albeit for the most part on paper. I had to pay extra tax after filing last year's return which I did at the appropriate time and expect to have to pay some extra tax this year as well. Why have I been randomly selected for this inquisition, wasting many hours of precious time? If I am late in submitting my return this year, it will be their fault, not mine. Who are the idiots who devise these questions and to what purpose?

It would be helpful, in case I ever do succeed in getting back on to my account, to know what questions are likely to arise re the credit card. I hope I won't have to spend another half hour waiting for someone at Sainsbury's to pick up the phone.

I am mindful of the fact that stress is considered to be a major contributory cause of my illness via the effect on my immune system and this does not help. To say I am hopping mad is an understatement. Needless to say, even on Saturday morning, HMRC had nobody answering telephone calls.
Pathetic when they must have known about these problems for some time.

Edit: This is the message that came up when we tried the Verify route: Sign in with GOV.UK Verify
You'll have an account if you've already proved your identity with either Barclays, Digidentity, Experian, Post Office or Secureldentity
And that was all. God knows what it means.

[Lootman]

I couldn't remember when I switched to a Sainsbury's credit card but, bless her, the person at the end of the phone when I finally got through was able to tell me within seconds the date it started in 1997 (lots of Brownie points to them!) and I had the details of my last year's tax return, but when these and then my address were entered, a message came up that the service was not available and that they were experiencing technical problems. That is still the situation. In the meantime, my son (who hasn't yet done his own return) tried getting on to his own gateway account and had no problem doing so.

It would be helpful, in case I ever do succeed in getting back on to my account, to know what questions are likely to arise re the credit card. I hope I won't have to spend another half hour waiting for someone at Sainsbury's to pick up the phone.

I am at a complete loss to understand why HMRC would be remotely interested in which credit cards I have, or when I got them.

This is utter madness. And more evidence, as if I needed it, that I should never bother with online tax returns.

[Bouleversee]

P.S. to previous:

If you send a complaint by email or letter, how long does it take to get a response at this time of year?

[JohnB]

I would urge you to ring HMRCs complaints department, and be very firm that you want to be sent a paper tax return to complete and that they should extend your filling deadline to allow you to return it. Do not accept that you would get an automatic fine after sending in the paper return which might be rescinded on appeal. I got this concession out of them after pushing hard.

I then escalated this into a formal complaint based on indirect age discrimination, which is now ongoing.

[ursaminortaur]

Edit: This is the message that came up when we tried the Verify route: Sign in with GOV.UK Verify
You'll have an account if you've already proved your identity with either Barclays, Digidentity, Experian, Post Office or Secureldentity
And that was all. God knows what it means.

You have to register with Verify and then choose to verify yourself via one of these partner organisations.

To register go to

https://www.signin.service.gov.uk/start

and pick the option

This is my first time using GOV.UK Verify

You will need

a UK address
a mobile phone
at least one valid photo ID from any country

The latter could be a problem if you don't have a passport or photocard driving license.

[PinkDalek]

You have to register with Verify and then choose to verify yourself via one of these partner organisations.

To register go to

https://www.signin.service.gov.uk/start ...

That commences (for me at least) with Sorry, something went wrong
This may be because your session timed out or there was a system error.

Because this is a secure service, you’ll need to start again., possibly because I looked a few minutes ago and was met with something else but not the start page.

It might be best to study this, which explains it all (for those with the time available):

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introducing-govuk-verify/introducing-govuk-verify

Noting the:

Companies that can verify your identity

When you use GOV.UK Verify to access a government service, you choose from a list of identity providers (also called ‘certified companies’) that the government has approved to verify your identity.

These identity providers are:

Barclays
Digidentity
Experian
Post Office
SecureIdentity


... and also (which is the route I was about to go down before this thread was resurrected - for a a variety of matters, not my 2019-20 Tax Return which went in hard copy months ago).

From 23 March 2020, you can create a new identity account with Digidentity or Post Office. If you’ve already created an identity account with Barclays, Experian or SecureIdentity, you can still use it to sign in to government services until 24 March 2021.


What was that advert, oh yes, see for example https://blogs.thisismoney.co.uk/2010/09/dear-mr-taxman-tax-doesnt-have-to-be-taxing.html.

I always wondered who chose Hector's dodgy moustache. It seems HMRC staff didn't like his bowler & pinstripes http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1388220.stm.

[ursaminortaur]

From 23 March 2020, you can create a new identity account with Digidentity or Post Office. If you’ve already created an identity account with Barclays, Experian or SecureIdentity, you can still use it to sign in to government services until 24 March 2021.


What was that advert, oh yes, see for example https://blogs.thisismoney.co.uk/2010/09/dear-mr-taxman-tax-doesnt-have-to-be-taxing.html.

I always wondered who chose Hector's dodgy moustache. It seems HMRC staff didn't like his bowler & pinstripes http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1388220.stm.

Thanks for that PinkDalek. I'm registered via Barclays and this is the first I'd heard about that no longer working after the 24th March 2021. I'm not looking forward to having to reregister it was painful enough when I registered via Barclays.

[Bouleversee]

Well, I have banked with Barclays for very many years but if I asked them to be my verifier that would only last till March and then I'd have to go through it all again with someone else, a bit difficult with an expired passport and a mislaid driving licence (could be buried under one of the piles on my desk or on the floor or dropped when I was trying to get a card out of my wallet). In any event, since I am a UK citizen and have been filing a tax return for yonks, online for the past 2 years, and they have given me an activation code today which will last for 7 days, I'm blowed if I can see the necessity for all this malarkey and I am going to dig my heels in. Why should I have to verify if I can answer 2 of the security questions? It would, however, be helpful to know what questions they are likely to ask re credit cards so I can have the answers ready. I wonder if they are aware that the service has been interrupted by technical problems. They should be.

I shall be on the phone to HMRC at 8 a.m. on Monday but I daresay so will very many others. One can't help wondering whether this is a deliberate plot to make late filers pay fines because they can't now do their returns before the 31st. They have been sending me emails at regular intervals reminding me that it is due by then.

I really would like to know what determines who is asked to go through these extra security checks and why. If it is the lack of a valid UK passport, that is utterly ridiculous. My elder sister has never had one but has never submitted her tax return online either. When she hears this story, I am quite sure she never will.

[Bouleversee]

I said earlier: One can't help wondering whether this is a deliberate plot to make late filers pay fines because they can't now do their returns before the 31st. "

On second thoughts, that can't be it because my son and others who haven't yet filed their returns are able to get onto their accounts and continue with filling in the required information. So must be the lack of a UK passport. Again I say "ridiculous". There must be countless oldies who either never had or no longer have valid UK passports. What is the point of putting them through all this? I don't think there is any point. I think it is just another instance of incompetent idiots not thinking things through before they act. Like John B. I shall be doing my best to get this stupid and unfair nonsense improved and I don't intend to pay any fine for late submission even if they put me in prison. I can see the headlines now!

[XFool]

It might be best to study this, which explains it all (for those with the time available):

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introducing-govuk-verify/introducing-govuk-verify

Well, not really. That is, indeed, how to verify via GOV.UK Verify. But the question remains: Why do some people, who already have a valid registration for SA, now find they have to re-register/verify via GOV.UK Verify?

Is this to be rolled out to everyone in time? Do you or does anyone else know any more about this?

I just checked and find my own registration - via Government Gateway - was later than I thought, November 2008. I still have the plastic User ID card.
Last time I checked, around the start of this thread, I still logged on OK via GG, no GOV.UK Verify required.

Just tried GG login again. No problems.

[XFool]

I said earlier: One can't help wondering whether this is a deliberate plot to make late filers pay fines because they can't now do their returns before the 31st. "

On second thoughts, that can't be it because my son and others who haven't yet filed their returns are able to get onto their accounts and continue with filling in the required information. So must be the lack of a UK passport.

I don't have a current passport. So cannot be that.

[PinkDalek]

It might be best to study this, which explains it all (for those with the time available):

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introducing-govuk-verify/introducing-govuk-verify

Well, not really. That is, indeed, how to verify via GOV.UK Verify. But the question remains: Why do some people, who already have a valid registration for SA, now find they have to re-register/verify via GOV.UK Verify? ...

Yes but that is a different question to the one I was answering & no, I’ve no idea.