Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

October 2021 Budget

Practical Issues
JohnB
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2497
Joined: January 15th, 2017, 9:20 am
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 997 times

October 2021 Budget

#453283

Postby JohnB » October 26th, 2021, 5:24 pm

A place to discuss the budget's technical details. Opinions, especially political ones, are not welcome.

Gengulphus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4255
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:17 am
Been thanked: 2628 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453365

Postby Gengulphus » October 26th, 2021, 9:03 pm

JohnB wrote:... Opinions, especially political ones, are not welcome.

For the benefit of anyone who wants to post opinions about tomorrow's Budget and doesn't know already, the place where they are welcome is the "The Economy" board, which is subtitled "including Budgets".

Gengulphus

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18683
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 6564 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453584

Postby Lootman » October 27th, 2021, 1:55 pm

Good news for drinkers. My Wetherspoons shares are up 5% on that news.

Not so happy about the increase in air passenger tax, but at least there are ways around paying that.

Overall a pretty decent budget from what I heard so far, could have been a lot worse.

staffordian
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2298
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 4:20 pm
Has thanked: 1887 times
Been thanked: 869 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453587

Postby staffordian » October 27th, 2021, 1:57 pm

Unless I've missed it, nothing was said about 2022-23 income tax rates and allowances. Are these not usually anounced in the budget?

I seem to recall a proposal to freeze rates and allowances was suggested a while ago. Is this the case or can we expect details of new rates etc. nearer to next tax year?

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18683
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 6564 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453589

Postby Lootman » October 27th, 2021, 2:01 pm

staffordian wrote:Unless I've missed it, nothing was said about 2022-23 income tax rates and allowances. Are these not usually anounced in the budget?

I seem to recall a proposal to freeze rates and allowances was suggested a while ago. Is this the case or can we expect details of new rates etc. nearer to next tax year?

I had thought that they were already frozen for the life of this parliament. At least the allowances are frozen, and there is a pledge not to increase income tax rates (or VAT or NIC, since broken).

So the default is no change.

scrumpyjack
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4817
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:15 am
Has thanked: 606 times
Been thanked: 2676 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453590

Postby scrumpyjack » October 27th, 2021, 2:03 pm

Unless I have missed something, he has not announced any changes to income tax,CGT or IHT?

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18683
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 6564 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453591

Postby Lootman » October 27th, 2021, 2:05 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:Unless I have missed something, he has not announced any changes to income tax,CGT or IHT?

Correct, from what I heard. Sometimes details dribble out later, but surely not anything of that magnituude?

PhaseThree

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453610

Postby PhaseThree » October 27th, 2021, 2:55 pm

Details are to be found in the documents here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -documents

There's nothing on capital gains apart from a change in reporting schedules following property disposal and little or nothing on Inheritance tax or Pensions either

CliffEdge
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1554
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 452 times
Been thanked: 434 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453611

Postby CliffEdge » October 27th, 2021, 2:59 pm

I was drinking tea and eating cake while it was on so missed it. Anything interesting?

JohnB
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2497
Joined: January 15th, 2017, 9:20 am
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 997 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453639

Postby JohnB » October 27th, 2021, 4:32 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -documents has the details, but not much to discuss for the private investor.

didds
Lemon Half
Posts: 5244
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 3250 times
Been thanked: 1018 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453641

Postby didds » October 27th, 2021, 4:36 pm

Lootman wrote:Good news for drinkers. .


the chances of any duty reductions reaching drinkers is 0%. It would help breweries survive which is main point... except given the relief is only available on containers in excess of 40L this wont count towards cider producers who typically shift cider in 20L bag in box, and smaller craft and micro breweries that use pins or 30L key kegs.

So its good news for mega breweries and cider producers, and stuff all help for small entites. Its as if the government doesnt understand how the brewing industry works. Or I suppose alternatively are in the pockets of the big brewers .

Shurely shome mistake?

swill453
Lemon Half
Posts: 7962
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:11 pm
Has thanked: 984 times
Been thanked: 3643 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453686

Postby swill453 » October 27th, 2021, 6:43 pm

didds wrote:the chances of any duty reductions reaching drinkers is 0%. It would help breweries survive which is main point... except given the relief is only available on containers in excess of 40L this wont count towards cider producers who typically shift cider in 20L bag in box, and smaller craft and micro breweries that use pins or 30L key kegs.

So its good news for mega breweries and cider producers, and stuff all help for small entites. Its as if the government doesnt understand how the brewing industry works. Or I suppose alternatively are in the pockets of the big brewers .

I agree the small changes in pub prices are unlikely to be passed on.

However there are more significant changes in off-sales prices. 87p less tax on a bottle of Prosecco, for example. £1.09 more tax on a bottle of Port, though.

See https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/stat ... 78/photo/1

Scott.

Adamski
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1075
Joined: July 13th, 2020, 1:39 pm
Has thanked: 1465 times
Been thanked: 553 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453687

Postby Adamski » October 27th, 2021, 6:50 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:Unless I have missed something, he has not announced any changes to income tax,CGT or IHT?


Think that's cause the spring budget is mainly taxes but autumn one on spending.

scrumpyjack
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4817
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:15 am
Has thanked: 606 times
Been thanked: 2676 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453699

Postby scrumpyjack » October 27th, 2021, 7:50 pm

Lootman wrote:
Adamski wrote:What concerns me is both chancellor and shadow are so blase about the level of debt.

Public sector debt as % of GDP has grown from c30% 2006-7 to c100% now. Then forecast to level off and go down. But past experience is these forecasts prove optimistic.

What should be saying if being honest is future living standards will go down as income will have to go on servicing this debt at the detriment of future public services, but guess would be political suicide to say such a thing.

But the cost of servicing that debt has not increased, due to low interest rates. So as long as we can continue to persuade foreign investors to buy new issues of gilts when the old issues mature and are redeemed, then the current situation can endure for a long time.

Meanwhile inflation is creeping back, and nothing erodes the real value of debt more than inflation.

So government policies depress yields enabling the vast debt to be serviced. Whilst quietly encouraging inflation which renders the debt moot. Clever, huh?


But most of the gilts issued to pay for this have not been bought by anyone. They have not even bothered with the process of issuing them to third parties and then the BOE buying them back. They have just gone straight to the BOE who hand the interest back to HMG. In effect it has been printed. I really can’t see any government not simply kicking this can down the road indefinitely, so long as other countries do the same, which they have so far. Everything is relative.

JohnB
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2497
Joined: January 15th, 2017, 9:20 am
Has thanked: 677 times
Been thanked: 997 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453701

Postby JohnB » October 27th, 2021, 7:53 pm

I have reported 5 posts on this thread to the moderators, they have already deleted 2 of them. Please read the first post again

chas49
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1935
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:25 am
Has thanked: 216 times
Been thanked: 457 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453703

Postby chas49 » October 27th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Moderator Message:
As highlighted by the OP, this topic is not for political discussion of the Budget - the title of the board is "Taxes (Practical)" so this is for discussion of practical aspects of taxation, not political views. (chas49)

SteelCamel
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 208
Joined: February 15th, 2017, 5:49 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453714

Postby SteelCamel » October 27th, 2021, 9:04 pm

didds wrote:
Lootman wrote:Good news for drinkers. .


the chances of any duty reductions reaching drinkers is 0%. It would help breweries survive which is main point... except given the relief is only available on containers in excess of 40L this wont count towards cider producers who typically shift cider in 20L bag in box, and smaller craft and micro breweries that use pins or 30L key kegs.

So its good news for mega breweries and cider producers, and stuff all help for small entites. Its as if the government doesnt understand how the brewing industry works. Or I suppose alternatively are in the pockets of the big brewers .

Shurely shome mistake?

Most cask ale microbrewers use firkins (9 imperial gallons) - which happens to be 40.9 litres. I suspect that's why the figure was chosen. I think the idea is for it to be high enough to exclude anything you'd buy for a party at home - it's a limitation in the way beer duty is charged at the point of production that you can only adjust it by the way it leaves the brewery, not how it is ultimately sold, so there isn't any direct way to do a discount for draught on-sales.

GPhelan
Lemon Pip
Posts: 61
Joined: November 11th, 2016, 7:25 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453722

Postby GPhelan » October 27th, 2021, 9:48 pm

Exactly! That is discussed in the Treasury paper on the Consultation replies and which details the Govt proposals. A smaller size limit on the microbrewery sale containers - i.e. the 30l container some elsewhere have mentioned, risks the duty reduction benefit leaking out into the home market, rather than remaining in the part of the trade, which this measure is intended to benefit. If your family / friendly parties are big enough to require 40.9l firkins, then you probably hire in someone from the trade to run your bar anyway!

GPhelan
Lemon Pip
Posts: 61
Joined: November 11th, 2016, 7:25 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453725

Postby GPhelan » October 27th, 2021, 10:13 pm

What puzzles me about the Budget is the Chancellors statement that the duty increase only impacts RED wine, not White wine.

The Budget report says that the relevant duty band is 8.5% – 22% alcohol. Now the Red wine in my wine rack is 12.5% alcohol whilst three different white wines are 11.5%. 12.5% and 13% alcohol. I do not see anything in the Budget report (section 2.179) which says that colour discrimination will be introduced into the taxation system so how could there be a duty difference? I rarely see any ordinary White wine which has LESS that 8.5% alcohol. (I know there are some low alcohol products, but they are in a small minority.)

The detailed Treasury Consultation paper on Duty changes which contains the Government proposals also says nothing about the introduction of alcohol duty based on the colour of the product.

In my opinion, the authors of this part of the Budget speech and consultation documents are not wine drinkers. It may be that what they wanted to say is that previously the wine duty was based on one basis and now it will be charged on another basis which better allows for the alcohol content. This could mean that Red wine, which on average has 1-2% more alcohol than white wine will therefore attract more duty. However as my own wine rack demonstrates this is not even true in my own house. However I'm unsure even of this simple explanation because both the old and new duty tables in the consultation paper charge duty based on alcohol content. The only difference I can see is that the old system was computed in hectolitres of alcohol whilst the new one will be based on litres of alcohol. Maybe I am missing something important.
Can fellow lemon scented fools work out if we should be ordering in a container load of Red wine?

didds
Lemon Half
Posts: 5244
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 3250 times
Been thanked: 1018 times

Re: October 2021 Budget

#453728

Postby didds » October 27th, 2021, 10:19 pm

swill453 wrote:However there are more significant changes in off-sales prices. 87p less tax on a bottle of Prosecco, for example. £1.09 more tax on a bottle of Port, though.

See https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/stat ... 78/photo/1

Scott.



yes... but again that principally benefits big business (eg supermarkets) than it does small independent businesses on the whole...


Return to “Taxes (Practical)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests