Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Blatter,genou,88V8,kiloran,Anonymous, for Donating to support the site

Preference shares -- keeping it simple

Gilts, bonds, and interest-bearing shares
Padders72
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 101
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 7:53 pm
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418735

Postby Padders72 » June 10th, 2021, 10:34 pm

Alaric wrote:
88V8 wrote:They're Perpetual Subs rather than Prefs.
The unsafe is perhaps a folk memory harking back to when the Bank tried to retire them at par.
You may recall the campaign against this chicanery led by OBR on TMF.


Are those the bonds that used to be PIBS issued by the Bristol & West Building Society? If so, didn't the FCA have to wave a stick at the Irish government for attempting to write down assets of British pensioners.


That would be one interpretation. In reality BOI wasn't held exclusively by pensioners (I had a tranche for instance and was in my 30s) and secondly the FCA had little or no sway at all over a foreign sovereign power. Mark Taber did a pretty good publicity job though. Nevertheless BOI lived to fight another day.

rippleog
Posts: 22
Joined: March 12th, 2018, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418738

Postby rippleog » June 10th, 2021, 10:55 pm

Holts wrote:Yes , just offered 176.55 for 77,000 , someone maybe thinks this is poor deal , can it be improved during the offer period ? I can not see NatWest markets would be allowed to pay more unless it’s perhaps accounting for theoretical accrued , although obviously it is not that .


depending on the calculation the theoretical accrued is 2~3 months @ 0.75 per month..so 176.55 seems spot on to me...

rippleog
Posts: 22
Joined: March 12th, 2018, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418740

Postby rippleog » June 10th, 2021, 10:59 pm

Kirkie001 wrote:Here's a "market abuse" type question.

If, as part of the tender offer, Natwest had their bankers buying up securities on the market on their behalf - to be sold back to Natwest say just before or just after the tender offer - would this need to be disclosed at this stage?

The offer on the shares is currently 176.55 - ie through the offer price.

So who's buying - and why?


market makers...as the "clean" tender price will probably be at 176.85

rippleog
Posts: 22
Joined: March 12th, 2018, 2:02 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418745

Postby rippleog » June 10th, 2021, 11:10 pm

ChrisNix wrote:
88V8 wrote:
ChrisNix wrote:.... 75% of the reduced amount in issue to approve any cancellation.

This is where it potentially becomes perilous.

V8


Not really. It means the voting power of residual is rising.


maybe....
I still hold a residual in the Yorkshire 13.5% CoCo's (post tender) ...checked the bid yesterday....well put it this way I will be holding them to maturity in 2025

hamsandwich
Posts: 4
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 9:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418777

Postby hamsandwich » June 11th, 2021, 9:29 am

Hi - what do you guys think of the x2 abbey prefs as an option for the rbs 9? I remeber when these were the best bid prefs in the market during the gfc

hamsandwich
Posts: 4
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 9:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418778

Postby hamsandwich » June 11th, 2021, 9:31 am

im very wary of any lloyds issues post the ecn tender debacle

hiriskpaul
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2446
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:04 pm
Has thanked: 153 times
Been thanked: 603 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418796

Postby hiriskpaul » June 11th, 2021, 11:04 am

rippleog wrote:
Kirkie001 wrote:Here's a "market abuse" type question.

If, as part of the tender offer, Natwest had their bankers buying up securities on the market on their behalf - to be sold back to Natwest say just before or just after the tender offer - would this need to be disclosed at this stage?

The offer on the shares is currently 176.55 - ie through the offer price.

So who's buying - and why?


market makers...as the "clean" tender price will probably be at 176.85

Could be, but I am not sure how you got to 176.85. NWBD next pays on 16/10/21, 183 days after the payment on 16/04/21. The institutional offer accrues until 17/06/21, ie 62 days after the 16/04/21, so the accrued works out at 4.5*62/183 = 1.52p, total 176.52p. That is a slither under the market price, so if my sums are right someone out there is prepared to buy and not tender. Maybe that is someone who thinks they can approach the issuer after the tender date and obtain a higher price (a risky thing to do IMHO), or someone who is prepared to hold indefinitely*. The latter seems the most likely conclusion to me.

* Or someone who will have a go at selling to NatWest, but is prepared to hold indefinitiely if that doesn't work out.

hamsandwich
Posts: 4
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 9:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418830

Postby hamsandwich » June 11th, 2021, 1:11 pm

it could simply be a market maker who is short - post tender will be hard to repo due to reduced size - doesnt want to get bought in by a client

hamsandwich
Posts: 4
Joined: June 11th, 2021, 9:23 am
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#418831

Postby hamsandwich » June 11th, 2021, 1:12 pm

also looks pretty cheap to liquid cocos - and feel they can buy a few due to attention of the tender - buying from retail investors

JohnEdwards
Posts: 5
Joined: January 15th, 2017, 7:10 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#419078

Postby JohnEdwards » June 12th, 2021, 5:16 pm

A couple of thoughts on NWBD (most of which which I've held in my SIPP for over a decade):

i) Why are NWB choosing to make this offer now (at a price higher than ever shown by the market), when there are many forecasts of inflation and market rates rising which (as others have said) will almost certainly lead to lower prices? Surely they would wait for that to happen - unless they know something we don't!

ii) If NWB are quite successful with their reasonable tender price - say 75-90% tendered - the obvious next step for them (at some stage) is to try to clear the rump out. If this can't be achieved with a class vote to retire (given that the loose holders will have already sold), the consequence is most likely an increased tender offer - which, of course, can be pitched generously enough to be 'an offer you can't refuse', as the cost will be so much smaller than now. I REALLY don't want to sell these prefs (they seem part of the family since I retired), but I guess there's a price for everything in the end!

Along with others above, my plan is to defer a decision until the result of the institutional tender on 16 June, hoping that it contains enough information to judge the proportion of shares they have chosen to retain. As long as I can convince myself that there's no danger of retirement (at par?) or default, I'll probably choose to sit tight and continue to enjoy the (almost irreplaceable) income for ever.

ayshfm1
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 143
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:43 am
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#419189

Postby ayshfm1 » June 13th, 2021, 10:35 am

I have these in both SIPP and ISA. I have decided to hold in SIPP and sell in ISA.

Reasoning.

There is a lot more In the ISA, I could draw the cash and may want to. Hence there is greater consequence for this turning into an illiquid rump.

There is less in SIPP, I can't easily get at the cash and I always intended to keep them forever as an income source. Does it therefore matter if it turns illiquid? I'm thinking it does not.

Tara
Posts: 30
Joined: June 13th, 2018, 8:30 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#419227

Postby Tara » June 13th, 2021, 12:02 pm

ayshfm1 wrote:I have these in both SIPP and ISA. I have decided to hold in SIPP and sell in ISA.

Reasoning.

There is a lot more In the ISA, I could draw the cash and may want to. Hence there is greater consequence for this turning into an illiquid rump.

There is less in SIPP, I can't easily get at the cash and I always intended to keep them forever as an income source. Does it therefore matter if it turns illiquid? I'm thinking it does not.


I am also not very interested in selling at 175. It is difficult to find other investments where the yield is so good and the risk is comparatively low.

I would probably accept an offer at 225, giving a yield of 4%, but even then it would be quite difficult replacing the income with a comparatively low risk.

gadgetmind
Lemon Pip
Posts: 87
Joined: November 25th, 2016, 10:30 am
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#419301

Postby gadgetmind » June 13th, 2021, 4:56 pm

We have a tiny amount of NWBD (3k shares, roughly) in an unwrapped account that we're selling a few bits in every year to trickle money into our ISAs. I view this as a decent price to exit at, I was toying with ditching everything undated anyway because of inflation, so out without spread or fees suits me just fine.

[Deletion]

Moderator Message:
Possibly defamatory comment removed. - Chris

ChrisNix
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 143
Joined: May 23rd, 2018, 11:04 am
Has thanked: 57 times
Been thanked: 37 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#419516

Postby ChrisNix » June 14th, 2021, 4:30 pm

rippleog wrote:
ChrisNix wrote:
88V8 wrote:This is where it potentially becomes perilous.

V8


Not really. It means the voting power of residual is rising.


maybe....
I still hold a residual in the Yorkshire 13.5% CoCo's (post tender) ...checked the bid yesterday....well put it this way I will be holding them to maturity in 2025


Depends on how many you have as to the liquidity issue. The result of institutional tender will be guide to post tender issue size. That said, if I were an institution I'd tell NatWest Brokers that this price isn't compelling if NatWest wishes to retire the entire issue.

Laughton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 276
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 2:15 pm
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 78 times

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#419520

Postby Laughton » June 14th, 2021, 4:42 pm

What does the panel think?

Would this not be a bit like an equity placing (only in reverse), where the company (NW) sought input from instutional holders as to what was a fair price to get them interested in tendering??

Only a couple of days left to find out what they actually felt.

JohnEdwards
Posts: 5
Joined: January 15th, 2017, 7:10 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Preference shares -- keeping it simple

#419545

Postby JohnEdwards » June 14th, 2021, 6:32 pm

It would have been informative if they had structured this without a fixed tender price - so that everyone who wished could offer them at a price that would suit them. NWB could then decide at which level they wished to draw the line to achieve their objective.


Return to “Gilts and Bonds”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests