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Newbie bond question

Gilts, bonds, and interest-bearing shares
mc2fool
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Re: Newbie bond question

#573386

Postby mc2fool » March 6th, 2023, 7:26 pm

Securevalue wrote:I will be buying through a third party, say Hargreaves Lansdown

Right now the buy price is 101.50

So if i bought 10k bonds it would cost £10,150

Would i therefore qualify for the full 9.625% (£962.50)

Or would Hargreaves Lansdown somehow reduce my coupon payment to reflect only holding the bond for a month

Appreciate your help

The 101.50 is what's called the "clean" price, being just the capital value. What you will pay is what's called the "dirty" price, which includes accrued income. So in this case you'll be paying £10,150 plus circa 11/12ths of £962.50. Total cost left as an exercise for the reader. ;)

And yes, at maturity you'll get back the capital of £10,000 plus the final coupon of £962.50, in full.

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573389

Postby Dicky99 » March 6th, 2023, 8:03 pm

[/quote]
The 101.50 is what's called the "clean" price, being just the capital value. What you will pay is what's called the "dirty" price, which includes accrued income. So in this case you'll be paying £10,150 plus circa 11/12ths of £962.50. Total cost left as an exercise for the reader. ;)

And yes, at maturity you'll get back the capital of £10,000 plus the final coupon of £962.50, in full.[/quote]

I make that a loss of £70 :roll:

Securevalue
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Re: Newbie bond question

#573458

Postby Securevalue » March 7th, 2023, 6:22 am

Thank you both

I think it’s mad that you are paying for something not clear (dirty price) as Hargreaves Lansdown (HL) only shows 101.5 as the price. The yield on show too is c9% which again to me is misleading. Sorry thats just me i guess, but may be putting a lot of people off bonds

I guess i’ll leave this bond then. So basically when i buy it, HL will ask for 10,150 AND £883 for ‘accrued income’ = so £11,032. I will then receive at maturity 10,000 + 962.5 = 10,962.5

So as you rightly point out a £70 loss.

Crazy ha ha

How safe is lloyds too.. whats the best site to check out their rating? I see fitch said A+ (which is probably why the yield is so poor - no risk!)

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573462

Postby GoSeigen » March 7th, 2023, 7:02 am

[Sorry, technical preamble, scroll down if not interested...]

Accrued interest is a notional value, i.e. it's not a real thing paid by any issuer, it is just a quantity calculated using the value of the coupon and number of days to expected payment. There are two purposes to this notional accrued interest value:
1. to back out the fluctuation of price every 3/6/12 months due to the expectation and eventual payment of coupons and to leave a smoother underlying price which theoretically is only subject to non-interest fluctuations. This aids analysis and comparison of bonds, especially those of the same issuer and when coupons are large in relation to price.
2. to allow easy calculation of allowances or payments of income tax required to HMRC under the so-called Accrued Income Scheme. When you sell a bond you are required to declare the present value of the next coupon included in the price you paid to the purchaser and pay tax on that "income" (as it is deemed to be). Conversely, when you buy a bond you are permitted to deduct the amount of the accrued income and not pay income tax on it.

When it comes to actually trading the share these are the conventions you'll find in the market:
-If the bond is not in default then the price as listed by brokers and most data sources will be a "clean price" (i.e. with the accrued interest backed out).
-When you come to get a quote there will usually also be a clean price quoted with the accrued interest value also explicitly quoted, or occasionally a dirty price (i.e. the full value of the bond without the accrued interest backed out) will be quoted. Broker commission/fees will also be quoted to give the total amount payable to/receivable from the broker.
-The contract note you receive will usually calculate and show the accrued interest. This is usually the value you should put in your tax return but note that when a bond has defaulted the broker amount is often not correct and you have to calculate the accrued income based on the particular circumstances. [A current example is WBS (West Bromwich PIBS) which is quoted dirty, and only partial coupons are being paid so traders have to calculate the accrued income themselves based on the next actual coupon amount paid after purchase/sale. The tax rules are laid out in the Accrued Income Scheme documentation.]
-An explicit accrued interest payment is never made to or received from anyone, it is just an imagined part of the total value of the bond.


BTW, share prices in contrast to bonds are always quoted similar to dirty bond quotes i.e. the value of the anticipated dividend is always included in the quoted price, so that there is a step change in the price at the ex-payment date.

Securevalue wrote:I will be buying through a third party, say Hargreaves Lansdown

Right now the buy price is 101.50

So if i bought 10k bonds it would cost £10,150

Would i therefore qualify for the full 9.625% (£962.50)

Or would Hargreaves Lansdown somehow reduce my coupon payment to reflect only holding the bond for a month

Appreciate your help


So for this specific bond, the price quoted is of course a clean price. The actual price you should pay at purchase is the full price including accrued interest. The latter will be calculated as the value of the future payment at the day you purchase so of course will include most of the value of the final coupon.

Thus you will receive the full coupon at maturity but will have paid most of its value at purchase, and your actual return from owning this bond is likely to be very small or even negative if your purchase price is too high.

It's an unfortunate fact that usually it is more trouble to trade a bond close to maturity than is worth in any potential return.

GS

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573468

Postby GoSeigen » March 7th, 2023, 7:22 am

Securevalue wrote:]I think it’s mad that you are paying for something not clear (dirty price) as Hargreaves Lansdown (HL) only shows 101.5 as the price. The yield on show too is c9% which again to me is misleading. Sorry thats just me i guess, but may be putting a lot of people off bonds


It's about as mad as the fact that the commission payable to the broker is not included in the price, i.e. not mad at all, it is just one of the details one has to learn when getting involed in this non-trivial market. I doubt it puts off any but the most sensitive of people.

How safe is lloyds too.. whats the best site to check out their rating? I see fitch said A+ (which is probably why the yield is so poor - no risk!)


Sadly bond ratings should not be taken at face value as an indication of the future risk of a bond. Bond ratings are a trailing indicator, i.e. at best they tell you what has just happened. So in Lloyds's case, their balance sheet has been fixed up and they are now considered "safe" but that is no indication of what might happen in the future. This was vividly illustrated in 2007/8 when supposedly "safe" bonds, according to the ratings agencies, crashed and burned.

My personal view is that Lloyds is a very good credit but that doesn't preclude unpleasant fluctuations in the value of their bonds, especially if you overpay at purchase. That said I also consider taking equity risk will likely give a much better return than that of bonds of the same issuer, at least as far as most UK banks are concerned (because the bonds are fully priced taking into account the various risks).


GS

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573511

Postby mc2fool » March 7th, 2023, 9:29 am

Securevalue wrote:Thank you both

I think it’s mad that you are paying for something not clear (dirty price) as Hargreaves Lansdown (HL) only shows 101.5 as the price. The yield on show too is c9% which again to me is misleading. Sorry thats just me i guess, but may be putting a lot of people off bonds

I guess i’ll leave this bond then. So basically when i buy it, HL will ask for 10,150 AND £883 for ‘accrued income’ = so £11,032. I will then receive at maturity 10,000 + 962.5 = 10,962.5

So as you rightly point out a £70 loss.

Crazy ha ha

Indeed you would be, and a 0.7% loss isn't extreme when you consider the spread, at 99.05 / 101.50, is circa 2.5%, and not to mention that you're starting off with a capital only loss of £150....

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573585

Postby Securevalue » March 7th, 2023, 1:25 pm

Thank you all again for taking the time on the well thought-out, informative responses.

I'm glad I asked as i was certain to buy this bond, but had a niggling feeling it was all too good to be true... and proved, as it always does, that it was too good to be true

So i have exited a lot of my shares, as IMHO the stock market is a bit toppy and feel a correction is due soon. So i have a lot in cash which i'm conscious is gaining no interest, hence why i started delving into bonds

Are there any research / advice you'd give to the newbie to check out the various funds?

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573592

Postby Alaric » March 7th, 2023, 1:51 pm

Securevalue wrote: So i have a lot in cash which i'm conscious is gaining no interest, hence why i started delving into bonds


You may wish to double check the non-payment of interest. Over the past few months, things like bank deposit accounts and accounts at Brokers have started paying interest again. Rather than individual bonds, you might want to check out bond based OEICs and ETFs. Your capital is vulnerable on these to an extent.

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573609

Postby gpadsa » March 7th, 2023, 3:10 pm

Securevalue wrote:So i have a lot in cash

While you are researching/planning you could park the cash in a SONIA tracker fund like GB00B8XYYQ86 Royal London Short Term Money Market Fund Y Acc (do research on that first though)

gpadsa

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573685

Postby mesb48 » March 7th, 2023, 7:48 pm

My first bond purchase was a uk government gilt. It felt a safer way to learn how it works. There’s a bond that matures in July, TG23 I think. It’s roughly yielding 4% on an annualised basis. Obviously you’ll only get this rate for a few months - but nothing to say you have to hold to maturity, you could sell before then if you wanted to. Spreads are more reasonable too. I suggest to have a look at that, maybe transact with a small amount to learn how everything works. Not advice, but a suggestion of something to consider.

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573808

Postby GoSeigen » March 8th, 2023, 7:42 am

mesb48 wrote:My first bond purchase was a uk government gilt. It felt a safer way to learn how it works. There’s a bond that matures in July, TG23 I think. It’s roughly yielding 4% on an annualised basis. Obviously you’ll only get this rate for a few months - but nothing to say you have to hold to maturity, you could sell before then if you wanted to. Spreads are more reasonable too. I suggest to have a look at that, maybe transact with a small amount to learn how everything works. Not advice, but a suggestion of something to consider.


This is not a bad suggestion, but unless the spread is very small there is a decent chance of loss here or negligible return. Personally I'd buy a one-to-two year gilt, given the yield-curve inversion out to two years or more. For example 31 Jan 25 0.25% gilt (TN25) appears to be trading at a YTM of 4.17% according to Tradeweb [free reg required].


GS

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573961

Postby scotia » March 8th, 2023, 2:22 pm

I believe that currently NS&I have a 1-year guaranteed growth bond paying 4%, and an Easy Access account paying 2.85%

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Re: Newbie bond question

#573988

Postby GoSeigen » March 8th, 2023, 3:51 pm

scotia wrote:I believe that currently NS&I have a 1-year guaranteed growth bond paying 4%, and an Easy Access account paying 2.85%


Those are not the sorts of bonds we discuss on this board. :-)

GS

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Re: Newbie bond question

#574014

Postby scotia » March 8th, 2023, 5:06 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
scotia wrote:I believe that currently NS&I have a 1-year guaranteed growth bond paying 4%, and an Easy Access account paying 2.85%


Those are not the sorts of bonds we discuss on this board. :-)

GS

I was not suggesting that they are. I was responding to the original author who was seeking to save a substantial sum of money until he believes that conditions are suitable for returning his savings to the equity market. I am personally not convinced that the current behaviour of the bond market has much appeal as a secure store with a comfortable return. You may think otherwise. The original author complained that he is saving a lot of cash with zero interest. I have suggested a remedy with a UK government guarantee.

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Re: Newbie bond question

#574056

Postby hiriskpaul » March 8th, 2023, 6:37 pm

GoSeigen wrote:
mesb48 wrote:My first bond purchase was a uk government gilt. It felt a safer way to learn how it works. There’s a bond that matures in July, TG23 I think. It’s roughly yielding 4% on an annualised basis. Obviously you’ll only get this rate for a few months - but nothing to say you have to hold to maturity, you could sell before then if you wanted to. Spreads are more reasonable too. I suggest to have a look at that, maybe transact with a small amount to learn how everything works. Not advice, but a suggestion of something to consider.


This is not a bad suggestion, but unless the spread is very small there is a decent chance of loss here or negligible return. Personally I'd buy a one-to-two year gilt, given the yield-curve inversion out to two years or more. For example 31 Jan 25 0.25% gilt (TN25) appears to be trading at a YTM of 4.17% according to Tradeweb [free reg required].


GS

For money outside tax shelters, Short dated gilts are offering superior returns to bank deposits at present. For example, I bought some more Treasury 0.125% 31/01/2024 (TN24) today for 96.587. That is a yield to maturity of 4.05%, but as most of the return is in the form of a tax free capital gain, it is equivalent to the return from a taxable deposit account paying 5% for basic rate taxpayers, 6.75% for higher rate taxpayers and 7.4% for additional rate taxpayers. Unlike fixed rate deposits, gilts also offer early access should you need it.

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Re: Newbie bond question

#574168

Postby GeoffF100 » March 9th, 2023, 8:30 am

hiriskpaul wrote:For money outside tax shelters, Short dated gilts are offering superior returns to bank deposits at present. For example, I bought some more Treasury 0.125% 31/01/2024 (TN24) today for 96.587. That is a yield to maturity of 4.05%, but as most of the return is in the form of a tax free capital gain, it is equivalent to the return from a taxable deposit account paying 5% for basic rate taxpayers, 6.75% for higher rate taxpayers and 7.4% for additional rate taxpayers. Unlike fixed rate deposits, gilts also offer early access should you need it.

You appear to have got a good price there, very near to mid-market. How did you buy it? I have always been worried about the spread on short dated gilts like that. The quoted spread is about 1 point. The yield has gone up a lot in the last month:

Image

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/yield-curves

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Re: Newbie bond question

#574197

Postby mc2fool » March 9th, 2023, 10:08 am

GeoffF100 wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:For money outside tax shelters, Short dated gilts are offering superior returns to bank deposits at present. For example, I bought some more Treasury 0.125% 31/01/2024 (TN24) today for 96.587. That is a yield to maturity of 4.05%, but as most of the return is in the form of a tax free capital gain, it is equivalent to the return from a taxable deposit account paying 5% for basic rate taxpayers, 6.75% for higher rate taxpayers and 7.4% for additional rate taxpayers. Unlike fixed rate deposits, gilts also offer early access should you need it.

You appear to have got a good price there, very near to mid-market. How did you buy it? I have always been worried about the spread on short dated gilts like that. The quoted spread is about 1 point.

I bought the same, with ii, last October, during the Truss/Kwarteng debacle, for £0.95563 which was similarly close to the then mid price. I just checked right now and they're quoting a spread of £0.9608 - £0.9708, giving a mid price of £0.9658, but when I start to place a buy the you-have-15-seconds-to-accept price it offers is £0.96635, so only £0.00055 above the mid. Not quite as good as hrp's price though. :D

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Re: Newbie bond question

#574207

Postby GeoffF100 » March 9th, 2023, 10:31 am

mc2fool wrote:I bought the same, with ii, last October, during the Truss/Kwarteng debacle, for £0.95563 which was similarly close to the then mid price. I just checked right now and they're quoting a spread of £0.9608 - £0.9708, giving a mid price of £0.9658, but when I start to place a buy the you-have-15-seconds-to-accept price it offers is £0.96635, so only £0.00055 above the mid.

That works out to a spread of about 0.12%. That is 0.06% (plus dealing commission) if I hold to maturity. That looks attractive. The iWeb traders would deal that online, and should be able to get the same price.

That is looking better than my Royal London money market fund. The xd date is 1st May. I can sell for a capital gain before then, and perhaps fit that into my allowance.

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Re: Newbie bond question

#574215

Postby hiriskpaul » March 9th, 2023, 10:40 am

mc2fool wrote:
GeoffF100 wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:For money outside tax shelters, Short dated gilts are offering superior returns to bank deposits at present. For example, I bought some more Treasury 0.125% 31/01/2024 (TN24) today for 96.587. That is a yield to maturity of 4.05%, but as most of the return is in the form of a tax free capital gain, it is equivalent to the return from a taxable deposit account paying 5% for basic rate taxpayers, 6.75% for higher rate taxpayers and 7.4% for additional rate taxpayers. Unlike fixed rate deposits, gilts also offer early access should you need it.

You appear to have got a good price there, very near to mid-market. How did you buy it? I have always been worried about the spread on short dated gilts like that. The quoted spread is about 1 point.

I bought the same, with ii, last October, during the Truss/Kwarteng debacle, for £0.95563 which was similarly close to the then mid price. I just checked right now and they're quoting a spread of £0.9608 - £0.9708, giving a mid price of £0.9658, but when I start to place a buy the you-have-15-seconds-to-accept price it offers is £0.96635, so only £0.00055 above the mid. Not quite as good as hrp's price though. :D

I think I was just lucky with the timing. Up to date prices from HL are 96.07/97.07, but quotes for 10k nominal came out at 96.452/96.613, so an actual spread of 0.161 compared to 1.00. 96.613 for settlement 13/03/23 still works out at yield of 4.05%. To be precise 4.0521% vs 4.0461% I achieved yesterday for settlement 10/03/23

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Re: Newbie bond question

#574226

Postby hiriskpaul » March 9th, 2023, 11:11 am

Short dated linkers may be of interest as they are trading close to par again. eg TREASURY 0.125% 22/03/2024. Unfortunately I cannot get an online price for these. I have never bought linkers, but my understanding is that the spread for retail investors is usually a little wider than for conventional gilts. HL onscreen prices are Sell:£98.32 Buy:£100.82, both before inflation adjustments.


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